America is not a christian nation!

[TMA_1]

argh, fundimentalists now days try to spout out stuff like the God of teh constitution is the God of the bible. That all the founding fathers were great christian men.

no way in heck.

Most of the founding fathers were deists, many of them actually disliked christianity. many christians feel that we are being destroyed. this is one sad thing in my opinion. Now days christians dont have the faith to stand firm while being directly attacked upon. They have to retreat. This is done in trying to one up people who attack various things that are a violation of seperation of church and state. also people trying to accept that parts of the bible are wrong, because think about it. If one part of the bible is fundimentally flawed, then the entire bible is suspect.

I just think it is sad how skewed the views are of this nation. Many people say that we should be proud of it. Proud of what though? that this country recycled ideas of various cultures of ages past? big deal. I will serve my country is it is my duty. but why should we respect it, especially christians trying to fool themselves into thinking america is a christian nation. It never has been, frankly it is one of the more evil nations on the checklist in my opinion.

[Mahdi]

Um, you can be diest and christian....

[TMA_1]

I have never met one. Einstein explained deism pretty well, as he was a deist. He stated that there is a true God out there, but he doenst follow with a typical program of Ill scratch your back if you scratch mine. He has no need to contact humans as that is too trivial. The God of Deism is totally different than the christian God.

[Mahdi]

? The idea of diesm came from the scientific revolution, where scientists decided that the universe was guided by universal laws such as gravity, and such things happened because of said universal laws, not because God willed them, as had been the previous beleif. They then decided that God does not interfer in everyday life, but instead is the "clock maker". He made the universe, set all the natural laws to guide it, flicked the switch to turn it on, and stepped back to watch it run, no longer interfering. Deism is, in fact, a truly christian ideal. It was created to merge christian beliefs with newly discovered scientific revelations.

From the merrim-webster dictionary:

Main Entry: de

[Acriku]

You can follow Jesus' teachings and be deist, but as for the christian mythology - it contradicts deism.

I wish more people (COUGH REV FALWELL COUGH) would understand that this is not a christian nation. Kudos to you TMA for not being that closed-minded.

The god in the declaration of independence was your general god. But the god in the Pledge is the christian god (added in 1956 by a person of the Church). Just wanted to make that clear.

[TMA_1]

You are confusing the term with the actual ideology. Many of the people born of the scientific revolution did not mix their beliefs with jesus' teachings. if you read some of their works, many said he was a great man, but was not a messiah or God. Some though believed, like newton for example. The christian God though requires faith, at many times our belief is irrational and conflicts with deism. that is a matter of opinion though.

I totally agree with you acriku. As I said, things like on coinage "in god we trust" and whatnot, those were later additions, and are really of no consequence in my opinion. The reason why is because they are meaningless, they hold no true value of a christian deity. now days so many christians just force this stuff to stay alive just because they will push in any sort of deity to win the battle they think they are fighting. rather sad.

[DukeLeto]

Here, here!

Also, I think that the "God" references should be removed from the Pledge and our money. Both were added in the mid-fifties, as a way of "seperating us from the Soviet Union, which forced it's citizens to be Athiests". How forcing our citizens to be Christian is better is beyond me.

[TMA_1]

I agree with that actually. THere is a fine line though with seperation of hcurch and state. I believe that a person has a right to say whatever they dman well please in public areas, just as long as it doesnt incite to riot. this girl tried to complain to a teacher that I shouldnt talk about spiritaul things in school because it infringed on her rights. seperation of church and state. People dont undestand what it means! it isnt just protecting government from religion, it is protecting rteligion from Government. If a teacher started saying and spouting religious stuff, then he should totally be punished because that is a government worker supporting a religion and that is off limits. A student though or any citizen that does not work for the government has full rights to do whatever they wish verbally as long as it doesnt lead to physical injury or mental injury. When I explained to her this, she actually changed her opinion. people dont understand the definition of seperation of church and state. It says that the state will not reject or support religion. THat means a perosn who is not apart of the government system or is not a government worker in the vicinity, the person can talk about any religious or non religious stuff they want. That is one thing that bothers me, people idiotically follow other people's opinion on what hte ocnstitution says adn the bill of rights. If you are an american citizen, read them yourself! dont follow the leader.

[Acriku]

It's sad that some states (COUGH ALABAMA COUGH) don't even acknowledge that there is a separation of church and state at all.

[sneezer3]

Thomas Jefferson's letter was taken out of context when it was used, he wasn't even reffering to seperation of church and state.

[Acriku]

I read the letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, and found it to refer "common law" to the law of England. Not of America. So you're right about that sneezer. But, look at this quote:

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.

-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

Here is the Virginia Act he is referring to:

http://www.scaevola.com/deism/virginia_act_for_establishing_re.htm

I suggest you read it in whole, sneezer.

[Timenn]

I know that not all American are christians.

But why wants Bush to let it look that way?

[Acriku]

Believe me, I'm not too happy about it.

[Phage]

Thomas Jefferson's letter was taken out of context when it was used, he wasn't even reffering to seperation of church and state.

Oh yes so when Jefferson said there should be a "wall of separation between church and state" he didn't mean there should be a seperation of church and state...... ::)

[Emperor Harkonnen]

wasn't Jefferson a previous slave owner ???

[Acriku]

Jefferson had slaves, but he treated them very well. Even though that does not excuse his participation in it, he did believe that slavery should end. Remember when he wanted to put one sentence in the DofIndependence that would end slavery? Too bad 2 states wouldn't sign it if it was there, otherwise our history would be a lot different, the civil war perhaps avoided.

[TMA_1]

double standard. I have heardpeople on this site defending themsleves when you said that slavery was okay in the bible. Some people said "but they treated them well". You said there is no excuse and you are right, but I would give a little more empathy to the opposing debator if I was you.

on a side note the new testament explains that it is wrong. most unbelievers take into account places in the new testament like philemon and say that it shows that slavery is okay. that is a total assumption and bad discernment of the word of God. In the bible, it says that we christians are to take abuse. We areto follow our masters, whether it is a slave owner or a king of a tyrannical government. Even though they are evil and ocmmit evil deeds, it isnt our duty to fight against it becaue God wants us to focus on the spiritual realm, the physical existance s meaningle

[Acriku]

??? What does this have to do with what I said?

[TMA_1]

it was a random observation, kinda like the one that forced me to lock one of my previus threads. ;)

[Acriku]

Can't even keep ontopic in your own topic ::) ;D

[TMA_1]

exactly, its my topic. I am talking about america not being a christian nation. I observed that you pointed out a double standard from other times in the past. just trying to help you out man. :)

[Acriku]

I don't recall that exchange of words, but whatever floats your boat.

[TMA_1]

of course you dont remember. it doesnt float my boat, makes me happy though that you never admit your big holes of mistakes. back to topic though.

[Dante]

Are there any truly religious nations?

[Timenn]

You mean without a government which uses the religion to opress the people?

I believe Tibet was one