Harq al-Harba

A potential downside of a scifi channel GEoD...Leto II vs. Supercroc. A bit of a problem when I see scifi channel films popping up regularly on "The Soup."

Thanks Andrew - that is a HUGE help. I have been searching that list an area code at a time with keyboard commands, and am only at 230-something. Thanks for the lead. em

Do you remember the screeching and pinging of a 1200 baud modem? If so, you might be able to help me. I am working on an academic project at the moment, and as a small part of it, I am interested in locating information about BBSs, AOL groups, and Compuserve groups that would have been dedicated to Dune before the mid-nineties (i.e. before widespread use of the World Wide Web). My interest for these specifically is for getting a sense how readers may have discussed issues pertaining not only to the original series, but also issues emerging out of McNelly's encyclopedia. Specifically, does anyone know of or remember any such BBSs? And, does anyone know of any archives of these? I appreciate any info or even any slim leads. Thank you.

Sorry to chime in on an old thread.... What always bugged me about the timeline at the beginning of the DE was the absence of anything about Islam or Arabic empires, particularly given the importance of these to the Dune series. If I were to add to the DE timeline (which really can't be integrated with the "canon" timeline), it would be a few hints here and there about these.

Coming back after a LOOOONG break, FWIW, I can tell you why I chose the name for this board. In the DE, he is more that just the historian that Farad'n is. He is a poet, playwright, and literary icon who sought to explore the meaning of Mu'ad Dib to the Fremen. I felt attracted to him as a character (and, besides, only a DE reader would appreciate the reference). DE discusses what, by the time of the Scattering, was a dispute over whether or not Farad's was, indeed, also al-Harba, and I decided, IMHO, he was not. To me, the DE entry was a riff on an academic theory that was hot in the eighties over whether or not Shakespeare was a real person or a pseudonym. Of course, he is now apparently not canon, which is fine by me.

I actually avoided this site for awhile after August, lest the temptation be too great to read spoilers from _The Battle of Corrin_. Yet it appears that there is little discussion. I agree with those that could not bring themselves to buy the book -- as with all of the Anderson/Herbert books, I checked it out from the library. (on a side note, I keep meaning to get back to the original Dune again, but was sidetracked this summer by moving and reading Lord of the Rings for the first time.) I was never so happy to save $30.00 or so. For all of the negatives of this book, allow me to point out some positives. The authors apparently got the message that readers do not need an ad nauseum reset of every event from the previous books every 20 pages. The resets were brief and few. Norma Cenva remained an interesting character (though slightly less so in this book), and Erasmus, as always, is the most human (and, at times, inhuman) of the characters. Okay, now the spoilers. [hide]I did like the Cult of Serena, because it seemed to fit in with the one thing that did work in these three novels: the idea of memory and history. Various factions are trying to shape history, and Quentin (? - a month since I finished the book) and Vorian's efforts to rehabilitate Xavier's reputation seem to sum that up neatly. I was curious how the "betrayal" would be explained, and it was fitting on the one hand (merely a difference over how to handle the human shields) and yet somehow less of a payoff than I might have suspected. In a sense it turned so many things upside-down: Vor is more machine at the end than man, the Harkonnen in this incident is more concerned about humans than the Atreides, and Erasmus turns out to be a better father than both. ??? The issue of memory also extends to the Jihad itself, which becomes reinvigorated by the cult. In a sense, Ginjo's overall plan is vindicated, and he is still held up to esteem despite his horrific Tleilaxa organ plants. Each of the virtuous characters gives up part of themselves and the truth for the greater good, and yet none are recognized for it. As for the rest, a nice turn that an Atreides-outsider, and not a Rossakian "witch", becomes the founder of the Bene Gesserit. Norma Cenva's fate is straightforward from here (though I am sure Anderson and Herbert will draw in every detail in what has become a franchise more than a series of novels), and the heavy-handedness with which they hint that the mysterious energy sphere mentioned in the House series on the Guild's home planet is clearly Norma. And apparently Erasumus is the mysterious force that will be encountered by the protagonists in HoD. (another aside - for the life of me, I can remember precious little from Heretics and Chapterhouse. I read each within a few months of their release, but can only remember more Duncan Idahos, Honored Matres and the destruction of Dune. Time to work on the whole cycle again.) Subtlety is not a strength of these works. Ishmail remains a complex character, and it seems a bit painful for him to realize towards the end of the book that his friend was ultimately right about the use of violence -- a debatable point -- and he becomes the most vigorous defender of the Zensunni Freemen traditions. Memory comes about again here, as he never met Selim, but holds up his life and teachings, despite their rejection by the younger generation who seek to profit from spice harvesting.[/hide] Ultimately, sanctioned or not, I prefer the DE version of events; we were warned from the beginning by FH, however, that truth, memory and history are not all the same thing. Sorry to go on so long, but I am interested in hearing other views. If you have not read it, request it from your library, and save your money for collecting hardcover editions of the original six books. Harq al-Harba

This is something I have been thinking about.

Maybe a number of you knew this (maybe not), but by chance today I learned that the name "Iblis" is also the name of an angel which, according to the Quran, was the only angel who refused to bow before man as commanded by God at man's creation (if that makes sense). The source is Surah 2:30-34. I am thinking about how this might cast Iblis in somewhat a different light (I am still unsure, as I have said in other posts, exactly _why_ he changes so drastically from BJ to MC), but I was wondering if anyone knew where Ginjo comes from? Any other name origins? The titans seemed pretty straight forward (Agamemmnon, Beowulf, Hecate, Juno etc.), as did Omnius. But any other name sources that might be overlooked? One other thing which has been at the back of my mind re: the Machine Crusade. The title. We all understand the Jihad, but at one point in MC, Omnius and Seurat discuss the role of religion in human motivation. At some point, I was expecting, given the title, for Omnius and Seurat to use Seurat's charge to lead a Machine Crusade, creating a religion that valued order and logic over chaos and emotion. Anyone else? Harq al Harba

I am flattered that you really engaged my posting. Thank you. If I may respond to a few things.

The odd thing is that while I remember the first four rather vividly, I really cannot remember much about Heretics or Chapterhouse, aside from the revelation about the axtlotl (sp?) tanks and the end of Chapterhouse. I remember that there was a Tleilaxu named Scytale, but not much beyond that. I am restarting the series again this month (actually buying the books this time -- the only thing I own is DE), and look forward to rediscovering it. Harq al-Harba

On the same issue, regarding the Tleilaxu, was I the only one who thought that this was not a human race? At least the first time I read the Dune series. Reading the prequels, it is much more apparent that they are "human," (though they would not be considered as such by the Bene Gesserit, among others). But not my first impression... Harq al-Harba

:) Really quite wonderful. He says it is a work in progress -- I would like to see how it progresses... Harq al Harba

I checked out the Dune DVD from my library last week, and watched it for the first time in about 15 years. Watching it got me thinking about books, artistic vision and cultural context -- but especially David Lynch. The first time I saw Dune was on video with a friend. I had never read the books (but as I mention in another post, another friend of mine had recommended them.) My friend thought it was somewhat interesting, but confusing. I thought it was thought-provoking, and immediately sought out the book. As I read the book (and continued with the sequels), I appreciated it for the complexity not only of the plot, but for its style and the level of engagement it demanded from the reader. (this is also why GEoD remains my favorite). I figure if a book is just about plot, I just assume read a summary. But I got into it big time, and for about a year, various parts of the books lingered at the back of my mind in a way that few other books do. After reading Dune, I watched the video again, and suddenly thought it was really bad.... Fast forward to last week. As I watched the DVD (which has LOUSY extras btw - I hope the new version has better extras), two things struck me. 1) It seemed like less a continuous narrative, and more like a flashback of scenes from Dune; and 2) There is no way that anyone could really ever produce Dune on film (well, except for the recent trilogies, which are pretty much plot-driven). You see, once the book went to any director, it became a group vision. There is David Lynch, but there are also the set designers bringing in their visions, and the costume designers bringing their visions, and lighting, props, makeup etc. Then there are the actors who, in this setting, bring their own visions to the larger vision. (Is this sounding Dune-like ironically). Ultimately, there is the audience who has read the books, who bring their own ideas about the characters and the settings, evaluating how things should or should not be. Unlike most Grisham or Crichton books (well, at least the more recent ones) which seem written specifically to sell as a screenplay, FH's Dune works invite the reader to bring in his/her own vision. Lynch's vision, however, is very much a vision from the 1980's. Many of the costumes and hairstyles (even some elements of the set design) SCREAM mid-80's. Compare the film to Hotel (the TV series), Flash Gordon (the 80' movie), Dynasty, and a lot of the budget sci-fi that came to theatres in the wake of Star Wars. Beyond that, Lynch's own style is very eclectic, and the film is a patchwork of symbols, images and references to different points in time and different cultures. (I am still not sure what to make of the rotating periscope/guns? that the emperor and his leaders jump on). There is the homosexual aspects of nearly everything Harkonnen set side by side with the visceral excretions by Harkonnens, Guildsmen and nearly all who line up against Paul. The film is shot nearly all in darkness -- even the desert scenes are either at night or close up and filtered enough to minimize sunlight. There is a cynicism in Lynch that is so typical of the 1980's, but at the same time, counter to the idealism of the 1960's which produced not only Dune but also Stranger in a Strange Land by Heinlen. In the end, I am less critical of Lynch. It is not Herbert's Dune, but Lynch's Dune. I am curious to see the Director's cut in that light.... Sorry to be so long in this post, but I am curious what others think in this line of thought -- not "well, its like the book or not like the book," but rather, how do you all engage Lynch's vision? Harq al Harba

Not exactly and in joke... Seeing some of the references in this thread reminded me of the first time I heard of Dune in high school. A friend of mine told me about it (Lynch's movie was about to come out) and mentioned that Iron Maiden wrote a song about Dune. I have never heard the song (I was never a huge Iron Maiden fan), but a quick internet search turned up this: <I>Iron Maiden - Piece Of Mind To Tame A Land He is the king of all the land In the Kingdom of the sands Of a time tomorrow. He rules the sandworms and the Fremen In a land amongst the stars Of an age tomorrow. He is destined to be a King He rules over everything On the land called planet Dune. Bodywater is your life And without it you would die On the desert the planet Dune. Without a stillsuit you would fry On the sands so hot and dry In a world called Arrakis. It is a land that's rich in spice The sandriders and the "mice" That they call the "Muad'Dib". He is the Kwizatz Haderach. He is born of Caladan And will take the Gom Jabbar. He has the power to foresee Or to look into the past He is the ruler of the stars The time will come for him to lay claim his crown, And then the foe yes they'll be cut down, You'll see he'll be the best that there's been, Messiah supreme true leader of men, And when the time for judgement's at hand Don't fret he's strong and he'll make a stand, Against evil and fire That spreads through the land, He has the power to make it all end.</I> Didn't say the lyrics were stellar, just figured I would add the reference. Harq al Harba

I just finished Dune: The Machine Crusade on audio book -- 22 CD's.