The Bitter Bene Gesserit

[TMA_1]

I have made a similar topic before, but just thought about it in more detail. Have you guys noticed that the bene gesserit are extremely antagonistic towards men. It seems they look upon men as inferior. Have you notice that this bitterness has even gone against the Kwizats Hederach? It is almost as if they were jealous that the "bene gesserit father" could enter in the place "where women cannot go", and even dispise him for that power. They wish to use him like they do all men. At the same time though there is a certain comfort they have in the kwizats hederach. still though it just seems weird, and probably stemmed from their early beginnings.

[Inoculator9]

I agree, it is very prominent.

[Egeides]

I have this impression that BG theories see men as inferior ebcause of their capacities (about the same as men vs women in the past), thus there is a reaction when a men is taking a strong position or something. And there's a reaction towards men in general.

[Tio_Holtzmann]

That is like the one thing I don't have to search hard and rack my brains for in this book. But do you think this could be a pinch of pro-womanising on FH's part?

[Egeides]

I think it is part of this belief we can see from a minority of feminists: the opposite of machos. Beliefs that men is inferior by its impulsivity/violence/else. Therefore, woman is superior.

In the past, violence ruled the world enough to put women on the side (from the prehistoric times). I mean physical, blunt violence. I guess Herbert saw the Duniverse with some different facto taking its place and feminine-like politics able to grow unhindered. From there, you get this view that feminine societies are superior, based on life and intelligence, agreements and organization, etc.

Basically, Bene Gesserits are ante-machos ;D

[Tio_Holtzmann]

Could it be because the women of the Bg managed to overcome the (stereo)typical things like emotions etc. while men are still their belligerent old selves?

Surely if feminimity (is that right) is so dominant then why doesn't everyone get along with the bg's and not just think they're arrogant or are scared of them?

[Egeides]

I believe it's really based on the nature of woman, not simply on the training (which is not given to males, and there's a reason).

For your second question, I'd answer that it's not because the BG see itself as superior that others agree... They're also a threat to others' position.

[Tio_Holtzmann]

yeah, i always thought the BGs were superior, but I think that's the prequels talking. in heretics and chapter house i have mucho-anti-macho respect for them, but i still dont like the manipulativeness, you see the hurt in teg and duncan.

Why wasn't the training given to males? I thought the only thing they couldn't do was the agony?

I'd say they maybe had a downer on men because they were so easy to manipulate.....

[SpiceGuid]

Since no man has passed the box test it is implied that men are not humans but animals. Also men are regarded has not much more than gene reserve and reproductors. The weakness of men in duniverse is mainly they never feel free and never escape destiny. Whatever the violence and immense powers of men, the surprise only comes from women, and oviously who introduces the surprise has the control.

[TMA_1]

it does say that other men have passed the box test, just not in the area of pain given to like paul had

[Timenn]

lol, we know your vendetta with the Bene Gesserit TMA ;)

Personally I don't like them too. They are arrogant, and that is something I hate. And they ruined many people with their manipulations.

I think they created the Bene Gesserit to stand up against all the ruling Houses, which were ruled by men

[TMA_1]

beh... you caught on.lol

nah they are just extremely twisted and evil. They desicrate the most sacred things mankind has just for the sake of their own power, and then when you talk with them they are proud of it!

[nemafakei]

"it does say that other men have passed the box test, just not in the area of pain given to like paul had "

Really? Where? I certainly know Mohiam was over-strict with Paul in giving him more pain than females. And I have seen no refeences to males serving as 'normal' BGs...

Besides, they value them in other respects: e.g.: Miles Teg and others in later boods. In the earlier books, the BG were presented as a mysterious cult, so we did not see much from their perspective as we did from later chronicles.

[TMA_1]

no no no. it says "no man-child has ever withstood that much pressure" or something along that. it is inferring that other men have done it

and there are acolyites who are men that serve in the bene gesserit, they just cant go as far as the women.

[Dante]

The Bene Gesserit, I believe, were created by Frank for a purpose only brushed upon in the other books, but was to come into it's own in Dune 7, after an intro in Chapterhouse.

Their long-range planning made them perfect to exist throughout the books, and their belief in the sisterhood rather than the individual perhaps reflects the inner sisterhood of all women (I heard that they have one once).

Their "bitterness" towards men seems not to be a form of dislike for being less able, but a form of pity that they cannot share in the wonders of the BG. It also seems less prenounced in the later books, as the 'human' side of the Bene Gesserit comes more into the light.

I think that Brian and Kevin just didn't do them justice as Frank did.

As for the manipulating, planning, scheming, plotting... That's why I like them so much!

Everyone should love the Bene Gesserit! ;D

[nemafakei]

"it is inferring that other men have done it"

You infer that, but surely it would actually imply that many men who have tried have failed.

[TMA_1]

when it says that no man-child had ever withstood that much pain, it means that there have been men who have passed, just on a much lower scale of pain. I believe that is what it is inferring to at least.

[nemafakei]

It is at best ambiguous.

And it might imply something or refer to it, but people make inferences and infer.

[Tio_Holtzmann]

Actually guys it says "no woman child ever withstood that much pain."

So that kinda makes it even less certain now.....

[TMA_1]

oops, you are right then nema, I thought I remembered there being men in the lower classes of the bene gesserit. I am probably wrong though.

[Tio_Holtzmann]

Well, both of you could be right. I don't think men were ever trained by the sisterhood to become reverend mothers etc cause there'd be no point, they'd die as soon as the agony came along. But the sisterhood did employ men, we see that a lot in Heretics and Chapter House. Like the guys Sheanna employed to.... practise on. Lucky s.o.bs.

[TMA_1]

hehehehe quite right. ;D