DNA and Proteins.. and black holes.. Paradox?....Must be a god?

[GUNWOUNDS]

I will keep this short and sweet since alot of you dont have the same understanding of this field... as i am a molecular biologist.

DNA is the inheritable material that have genes that code for innumerable gene products that sustain our life.

DNA cannot function correctly without Proteins binding to transcription factor binding sites.

Proteins are coded by DNA

DNA cannot code for Protein unless Proteins it previously made of the right configuration binds to it.

Which came first... the protein molecule or the DNA molecule?

I have just completed my Masters in Molecular Biology and i can tell you that there are so many thing that are not understood and so many things that are paradoxs.

Many times when i run across these things it strengthens my faith.

Offtopic... another paradox... Blackholes....scientists say that the black hole on a topological math graph shows that the black hole has inifinite density..... that is illogical. We live in a finite world.. how can something infinite exist?

If these two things can be illogical... then it seems that illogical things can exist. so why not a God?

They both need each other

[Acriku]

Could be neither - RNA ;) You build an RNA particle with your basic materials, phosphates, and it goes on from there.

Also, holes in any science field shouldn't strengthen your faith. Science is not perfect, and it is in its fetal stages now. Holes mean there is something to find out, some truth out there that is waiting to be discovered.

About black holes, I haven't heard a scientist say it has infinite density, but perhaps it either goes off the scale, as in cannot be measured, or he was exaggerating. But I don't know.

[GUNWOUNDS]

yes but my friend its the same problem.

DNA codes for RNA and RNA codes for Proteins

Proteins have to interact with RNA as well and RNA codes for proteins.

its the same thing just a different chapter.

Many organisms.. such as viri use only RNA as their genetic material

But the same paradox applies. Special "cos" proteins are needed to fold the RNA into the configuration for it to function correctly...but the cos proteins were coded previously before..from the parental generation.

And i dont base my faith on "Holes"

I just think that illogical or paradoxical things show that science is not the end all be all.

For instance i told you about the book i read on the 4th dimension. If there is truly is a 4th dimension..... our science.. now or even a million years into the future could not detect such a thing.

3 dimensional instruments could never detect a 4th dimensional object.. i dont care how advanced you technology gets.

I believe that science can and will explain many things... and i even believe in evolution .. i believe that if you could safely deposit a single cell organism into the ocean of another planet simialr to ours then there would be an evolution of complex life.

However i believe that God was the one who put all of this into motion. IN other words if all life was to die on earth... and there was no life on any other planet... i believe God would have to re-initiate the life cycle.

and no offense Acriku.. but i noticed you are only 16.... how much reading have you done on biology and blackholes?

I have read many books and have a degree. This is not to insult you. I just want to know where you are getting your "i havent heard any scientist say that blackholes have infinite density" type of replies....its as if you are just refuting me to just refute me. Have you not heard this because you have not read much material??.. Or have you not heard this because you have not found it in all of the the volumnous material you have read?

EDIT--- I will try to post some links to some pictures of the graphs.

[GUNWOUNDS]

I know i started this thread with biology as the main subject... however it seems that physics seems the best way to prove my point.

Here are the links i promised.......

but i will post some of the best excerpts first..

"Black holes are thought to form from stars or other massive objects if and when they collapse from their own gravity to form an object whose density is infinite: in other words, a singularity. "

"At the center of a black hole lies the singularity, where matter is crushed to infinite density, the pull of gravity is infinitely strong, and spacetime has infinite curvature. Here it's no longer meaningful to speak of space and time, much less spacetime. Jumbled up at the singularity, space and time cease to exist as we know them. "

http://archive.ncsa.uiuc.edu/Cyberia/NumRel/BlackHoleFormation.html

http://archive.ncsa.uiuc.edu/Cyberia/NumRel/BlackHoleAnat.html#Singularity

http://archive.ncsa.uiuc.edu/Cyberia/NumRel/BlackHoles.html

Blackholes defy space and time... Blackholes are illogical.... Black holes exist

notice how many times the word "infinite" ...was used to describe it?

GOd defies space and time... God is illogical.... why cannot he exist?

Even Einstein was frightened by the idea of black holes..... it was something that shouldnt exist in our world.......

And he didnt want to believe it... but there is tons of evidence for black holes... and the coolest evidence is the picture of a blackhole slowly eating a gaseous planet....

I love physics....

[Acriku]

yes but my friend its the same problem.

Is it not possible that phosphates could have formed into RNA without protein aid? Or amino acids in space forming together to make a protein? These cos proteins, I have never heard of them but could they form in any other way, or RNA folding in any other way?

and no offense Acriku.. but i noticed you are only 16.... how much reading have you done on biology and blackholes?

I have read many books and have a degree. This is not to insult you. I just want to know where you are getting your "i havent heard any scientist say that blackholes have infinite density" type of replies....its as if you are just refuting me to just refute me. Have you not heard this because you have not read much material??.. Or have you not heard this because you have not found it in all of the the volumnous material you have read?

I've taken highschool biology, and college biology (in highschool). That's about my limit to biology (besides learning about evolution online). I realize you are more versed in biology, but I will try my best. That statement was just me admitting I've never heard a scientist say that, not at all trying to refute you. Black holes is a weakness in my area, so I doubt I will go far in a discussion about them.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Did you find the links interesting at all..??

[Warlord Ripskar]

Black holes really falls into the catagory of quantum physics where the rules by which we live don't seem to apply. You argue against the existance of the 4th dimension yet use it in your argument, the fourth dimension being Time as defined by Einstein in his Theory of Relativity.

We know that the constituents of proteins were available in the primordial soup and indeed were being created by the conditions prevailing. That leaves the ultimate source of DNA a mystery, however if we look at the components of DNA, ie. the Ribose sugar, sulphate group and the base we know that sulphate is available in usable quantities in any volcanic environment, that leaves the base pairs and the ribose, both of which are found in nature. All that remains is for these components to form a chain.

[Hawat]

We know that the constituents of proteins were available in the primordial soup and indeed were being created by the conditions prevailing. That leaves the ultimate source of DNA a mystery, however if we look at the components of DNA, ie. the Ribose sugar, sulphate group and the base we know that sulphate is available in usable quantities in any volcanic environment, that leaves the base pairs and the ribose, both of which are found in nature. All that remains is for these components to form a chain.

So the sole question that remains, is "what (or who) did actually trigger the reaction from the ingredients to a functionally chain ?"

[GUNWOUNDS]

Uhh... I never questioned the validity of the 4th dimension

However,

i am not referring to the 4th dimension you are referring to.

I know what time is and i know einstein calls that the 4th dimension.

That is NOT what i am referring to.

I am talking about physical dimensions

zero dimensional = void

1st dimensional = a dot

2nd dimensional = a line

3rd dimensional = a cube

4th dimensional = hypercube <----exists in a new plane or realm...not of this world

as you can see i am referring to a physical dimension that is

one higher than ourselves

not the abstract dimension of time.

i am sorry you got confused.

IN ADDITION you just reinforced my point about blackholes when you said they do not follow the rules of our universe.

That was exactly the point i was referring to...... THats exactly my point...

Black holes are illogical.. yet people know they exist.... therefore phenomena which seem to "Break" the rules of our existance can exist.

Therefore anything can be possbile in this universe.. including the existance of a God.

Everything doesnt fit into place like non-belivers want it to.

There are illogical things that exist.. there are anomalies...there is a God.

Logic does not dictate existance.......... ;) ;)

[Warlord Ripskar]

Ah, the 3+k= dimensional spacetime concept.

I'm afraid being on the biological side of science I'm not too familiar with concepts of quantum physics and I don't discount the possibility of the existance of gods.

I think you'd have to look up the study concerning the extra dimensions to understand what's going on but as neither of us seems to have the information discussing it may be a little difficult.

[King-Mega]

Ha,

You say that alot of us don't have a understanding on this type of field well guess what I do and i am glad to prove it with my 95 % Average ( I am a Genius,Nerd etc..).

8)

[Miles]

First of all, about the illogical nature of black holes, it only proves what I tried to say to emprworm in our discussion on the ontological argument for God. The usefulness of logic is limited by human perceptions and definitions. I think the fact that black holes are "illogical", yet are all but proven to exist, only shows our limited ability to comprehend true logic.---- That was more for emprworm if he is still around

Anyway, back on topic.

God might exists. I don't think that anyone on this site has argued otherwise, I could be wrong, but the difference between God, black holes, the tooth fairy, and evolution is a matter of evidence.

Does he exist? maybe, but jumping to the conclusion that he does just because we can conceive of him because we decide that it is possible for illogical things to exist, is foolish.

[Acriku]

Miles has it well. GUNWOUNDS, you find something you don't understand in science and you stamp GOD on it. That's not the way to go about things. How can we learn more about the things that we do not understand when our minds come to a dead-end conclusion on it beforehand?

[GUNWOUNDS]

we are only here for limited time. if you dont try to find some ways to validate your beliefs then what? We are not going to live for a billion years ....we dont have all the time in the world. We need to make decisions now. But your only 16 so time and death means nothing to you.. come talk to me when you are 80 years old acriku.

Black holes are something we will never be able to learn more about... u cannt send a probe to them.. you cannot scan them.

You just dont want to admit that the world ISNT some perfect little logic box that science can perfectly explain given an unlimited amount of time.

[Miles]

we are only here for limited time. if you dont try to find some ways to validate your beliefs then what? We are not going to live for a billion years ....we dont have all the time in the world. We need to make decisions now. But your only 16 so time and death means nothing to you.. come talk to me when you are 80 years old acriku.

Black holes are something we will never be able to learn more about... u cannt send a probe to them.. you cannot scan them.

You just dont want to admit that the world ISNT some perfect little logic box that science can perfectly explain given an unlimited amount of time.

What??? :-

I said that logic is flawed by human interperetation. While I think there is an ultimate logic out there, we can never be sure that our perceptions are correct in providing the information to plug into logical constructs.

I agreed with you that seemingly illogical things can exist in the universe. We certainly don't have a good enough grasp to claim anything as absolute. That's the whole point.

But that doesn't mean that we can invent supernatural, illogical beings because we want to believe in them. Evidence is necessary, or it is just guesswork and wishful thinking.

[Miles]

we are only here for limited time. if you dont try to find some ways to validate your beliefs then what? We are not going to live for a billion years ....we dont have all the time in the world. We need to make decisions now. But your only 16 so time and death means nothing to you.. come talk to me when you are 80 years old acriku.

But in order to truly advance as a species, we must be able to look forward into the long term. Religion forces people to look into the short term (there own short lives and the afterlife). "What can I do to ensure that I go to heaven?" What we should be asking is "what can I do to better the species". This causes stagnation, as humanity wallows in the comfort of it's own delusions, meanwhile not preparing, nor searching for the dangers and challenges that may face us in the long term.

[slaphapy]

Blackholes defy space and time... Blackholes are illogical.... Black holes exist

GOd defies space and time... God is illogical.... why cannot he exist?

Even Einstein was frightened by the idea of black holes..... it was something that shouldnt exist in our world.......

how do you know black holes exist? you can not see a black hole... the only way scientists think they are there is by seeing stars rotate around a point.. but you cannot see a black hole.

and why Einstein? he did not study black holes. if you want a scientist to get info on blackholes from try Steven Hawkings (sp?)

[GUNWOUNDS]

you havent seen the picture that the hubble telescope took that shows a black hole eating an enormous gaseous planet??

Its so intriguing

[slaphapy]

i would actually like to see this, considering I have never heard of it.. and that seams highly unlikely to be real considering even an absolutely enourmous gaseous planet would be not be able to be seen even with hubble.

[GUNWOUNDS]

ok i will try to find it.. i saw it awhile back,,,

it shows a blackhole slowly pulling the gas off of the planet..

it is a real picture.. i will search for it.

[Dude_Doc]

We do know black holes exists. We can actually see them, or well, the light that is sucked into them. Besides, the only "logical" answer, from my point of view, is that our own galaxy has a giant black hole in the middle, because what else has the force needed to pull all of the billions of stars in our galaxy?

Not only that, doesn't a sun become a black hole, after it implodes? If this is true, or well, if it someday can be prooven true, then I think we can find out just how much mass a black hole has, because a star has a mass, and if that mass are pulled together, into a small, complex dot, it ultimately "evolves" into a black hole.

Not only that, a black hole is supperior to anything in this universe, except the universe itself. Just take a look on our own planet. I can become the most powerful man on Earth. I can also become the strongest person on Earth. I can do whatever I wish, change laws, create and disband mighty corporations etc. Now, if the Earth is destroyed, I and all of my power are too. The point?

If the universe are destroyed, black holes will also be destroyed. See the connection? So, the small and uninteresting conclusion about all this is that a black hole is nothing "out of the extraordinary", because it is a part of this universe.

[slaphapy]

nothing is proven without a doubt, although it has become accepted that there are black holes... but we know almost nothing about them because we can not see them we can only see light being "sucked" into them. nobody has any idea of what would happen once you are passed the event horizon on a black hole, some scientists think that all time would get slower and slower as you approach the event horizon and when you do time would practically stop because it is going so slow.

but that is only a theory, it would be impossible to prove it in our lifetime, there would be no way to reach a black hole before we all die or something. and why would you think that there is a black hole in the middle of our galaxy? there is absolutely no way to prove that not for probably even a million years from now... when we look to the center of our galaxy all we see are billions and billions of stars, they are all very young stars... do you know why?

because when we look to the center of the galaxy we are seeing billions of years into the past... so there could be a black hole at the center of the galaxy today, but it would be impossible for us to see it for millions or even billions of years from now.

in fact because when we look into space we are seeing the past, we have no idea even what the other half of our galaxy looked like even in the "long long ago" (hehe south park)

o and btw gunwounds: asked my astronomy teacher 'bout that "picture" of the gas of a planet being sucked into a black hole, he showed it to me, it's an artist rendering

[Dude_Doc]

because when we look to the center of the galaxy we are seeing billions of years into the past... so there could be a black hole at the center of the galaxy today, but it would be impossible for us to see it for millions or even billions of years from now.

No, not billion years ago. That is other galaxies, and the universe in general. The theory that the milky way has a black hole in it's middle is there because it is the only logical explanation why all stars are spinning around it. No one said there is one.

Our galaxy is about 100 light years accross. This means that what we see on the other side of the galaxy happened 100 years ago, well, if we were exactly 100 years away.

The point is that black holes do exist in this very universe, and that they are a part of it.

[slaphapy]

Our galaxy is about 100 light years accross. This means that what we see on the other side of the galaxy happened 100 years ago, well, if we were exactly 100 years away.

100 light years? try more like 90,000 to 100,000 lightyears

[Dude_Doc]

My mistake. 100 000 light yeras was the right answer.