Acriku doens't even know evolutionary theory

[Inoculator9]

I know :) That is simply because something different just hasn't happened yet ;) Those are perhaps attempts at evolution... I would guess that truly beneficial mutations don't occur quite as often.

[Dante]

I know :) That is simply because something different just hasn't happened yet ;) Those are perhaps attempts at evolution... I would guess that truly beneficial mutations don't occur quite as often.

That's what I was going to say!

[TMA_1]

hmm I stand corrected.

let me ask one thing though so I am not compltely doubtful of this.

Arent all mutations just relative to what fits best in an environment? like for example the "hitchhikers thumb". It isnt really of much use, but just say somehow we lived in an environment where it served mankind better than the regular thumb movement. The people with the hitchhikers thumb would then live and the others would die or be encorperated into this new adaptation, right? isnt it kinda relative towards what the environment "desires" so to speak?

[Inoculator9]

Yes. The thing about our current situation is that we are almost perfectly adapted, in general. For example, a comparison:

American citizens - Aboriginees

-American citizens possess most niceties of life and live relatively well, so additional adaptations are not required for survival.

-Aboriginees have an almost eery sense of direction. I know from my Australian relatives, who have encountered aboriginees on many occassions, along with many studies, that the aboriginal people have "internal compasses."

When improper mutations occur within people, causing such difficulties as down syndrome, it is merely an accident. Nothing else to it.

[Dante]

Or possibly a mutation gone too far. For example, if a mutation were to come into being that aided people to retain water in deserts (Fremen!) went into overdrive, the people would almost certainly never urinate and most likely die. Thus it would be a disease. I expect many modern diseases are in fact mutations gone wrong.

[Inoculator9]

Good point. The body does sometimes incorrectly adapt to situations. But modern diseases and disorders like down syndrome are caused only by a single little mix up. Almost nothing is changed. Atleast from what I can remember of my special needs crash course.

[TMA_1]

but isnt downs syndrome where there is an extra cromisome added to the strands of dna?

[Acriku]

GUNWOUNDS, I thought you knew that organisms are not closed systems, and therefore the second law of thermodynamics does not apply? Therefore, we are not an anomaly.

Downs syndrome has an extra 21st chromosome, (trisomy 21) which causes all sorts of problems. Cell division is not perfect. Downs syndrome is an error in cell division, non-disjunction, not really a mutation.

[TMA_1]

hmm every doctor I have talked to, including an expert in the field at Children's hospital in Seattle, (my sister has to go there all the time for her problems) said that it is a mutation. It is an altering of the natural conception process.

[Inoculator9]

Yes, that is what I was implying.

[TMA_1]

organisms are apart of the second law of thermodynamics. The environment and the universe as a whole is a closed system of sorts, and it follows the patterns. We too grow old and die. I think that what you stated is a little too much.

[Acriku]

Organisms are open systems. You don't think so? Also, I'm not sure what the mutation is, because all that I've read on the syndrome is that it is an error in cell division.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Yes i am aware that we are open systems and therefore 2nd law does not apply.. but in the end we all decay so we are fulfilling the 2nd law when we return to dust....... so you can look at it both ways... its a matter of what your opinion is

However... seeing as how life is so rare in this universe (so far only one planet out of billions) i tend to think in my own opinion that we ARE anomalies.

Dont you think so too?

[GUNWOUNDS]

Also you people are mixing up evolution with adaptation.

Evolution is constantly going on. Your DNA makes a mistake every billion times it replicates. A mistake is a mutation. Your DNA does hundreds of trillions of replications throughout your life. So there are plenty of mistakes that happen. Also there are mistakes occuring when your body makes your gametes as well. (DNA to be passed on to future generations)

Adaptation is when a population with a life-saving trait outlives a population that doesnt have it.

[TMA_1]

downs is an addition of a cromisome. I am sure about that. and you are right gunwounds.

[Inoculator9]

Adaptation - when a person or a group learns how to more easily survive and thrive in a given area or under certain circumstances.

Evolution - in the physical sense, this is a real alteration of your bodies chemistry.

Adaptation is more of a mental change.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Adaptation usually is a physical change. Such as an island where there is a population of birds that only eat nuts.. and there are only very big nuts on the island..

and the birds are mixed .. and have either large beaks for cracking big nuts or birds with little beaks that can crack little nuts..

The little beaked birds will die of starvation.. while the big beak birds will survive (due to beaing able to crack the nuts) and pass on their genes.. creating more big beaked birds.

This is the simplest way to example adaptation.

[Acriku]

Unique, perhaps GUNWOUNDS, but our limited knowledge can't really conclude our existence to be an anomaly in the sense that is a something that is abnormal. But that is my opinion as well.

[Inoculator9]

I'm inclined to disagree. That definition is kind of ambiguous... when being compared to the definition of evolution.

[Acriku]

There could be mental awareness of how to survive, but it's mostly instinct, no?

[Inoculator9]

I agree. If you were, running from something for example. Ideas about where you should turn aren't popping into your head, instinct is pushing you subconsciously into other directions that your subconscious feels would be more successful.

[GUNWOUNDS]

I agree. If you were, running from something for example. Ideas about where you should turn aren't popping into your head, instinct is pushing you subconsciously into other directions that your subconscious feels would be more successful.

yes .. perhaps while you are running... you see an opening in some brush and feel that it is a "clear" area.... or perhaps other people would feel more comfortable running towards an area with lots of trees where it would be "easier to hide?"  ... not sure but

instinctive flee patterns would be interesting to study..

[Wolf]

Acriku, you're going Marines?

*By the way, so I can legitimize my conversation-making with an actual contribution to the topic, I feel that evolutionary psychology is a good explanation for most of human behavior.

[Sneakgab]

Im curious about down's syndrome (or perhaps just momentarily fazed due to the late time of night:D)

Wether mitosis or meiosis, their must be an equal number of chromosomes in each cell... I see how this is possible in mitosis where the chromatids are pulled to either part of a cell before the telophase and cytokinesis, thus resulting in an equal number of chromatids on each side of the cell, resulting in an equal number of chromosomes in the two new cells after the chromatids rejoin with the correct chromatids to form chromosomes... but how is it possible that a aown's sydrome cell can effectively (effectively, as in spawning two cells which then each also split,e.t.c) undergo meiosis? with an odd number of chromosomes, and with what is supposed to be an equal number of chromosomes going to each cell?

Btw: According to my teacher, it is theoretically possible to create a new gene (having being told this by him after having suggested the idea) during the ''crossing over'' period that chromosomes undergo during meiosis by replacing a section of a chromatid (ie: a gene) with another gene in such an way that it links and continues on with the adjoining/adjacent gene

According, I was told this by my teacher, which raises the probability of it being incorrect to 99.99999999991 percent..... but just an afterthought for those saying that the creation of actual new genes is impossible

edit

bleh, spelling and grammar gone seriously wrong... posting at late times not advised:D

Anyway, the information mentioned by Gunwounds is virtually common knowledge, even with my (r@ppy South African education I learnt these basics in about half an hour.... of course I am still equipped with a similar amount of understanding of this topic as back a 2 or 3 months ago when I received that lesson though thanks to various amount's of scool (r@p resulting in much wasted time and effort... I digress however, the point I do not see why people are waving college degrees and the like to indicate their understanding of what they are talking about, as far as this topic has gotten even people who have not taken biology are qualified... (so don't feel threatened:D)

[GUNWOUNDS]

Anyway, the information mentioned by Gunwounds is virtually common knowledge, even with my (r@ppy South African education I learnt these basics in about half an hour.... of course I am still equipped with a similar amount of understanding of this topic as back a 2 or 3 months ago when I received that lesson though thanks to various amount's of scool (r@p resulting in much wasted time and effort... I digress however, the point I do not see why people are waving college degrees and the like to indicate their understanding of what they are talking about, as far as this topic has gotten even people who have not taken biology are qualified... (so don't feel threatened:D)

hahahah.... of course its common knowledge.. when i was a studying graduate student i taught that same material to lowly undergraduate freshman level students.... its the most basic of DNA knowledge....

However as you can see sneakgab... most people in this thread and in this forum didnt even know it... i only mentioned my college degrees so these people wouldnt think i was talking out of my ass....

also mentioning that i have a master's degree lets them know that they can ask me questions on the subject and that i can competently answer them.