Don't get it.

[Egeides]

There are neo-Nazis who believe that the Holocaust never took place. In that case, why do they hate the Jews so much? Anybody knows? ???

Jews were hated through history because first of all they are different and maybe sometimes secluded (unknown=potential danger).

FROM WHAT I KNOW (still not much): Add to this that the jewish promoted way of living makes hard working people, a little like Chinese. The result of this is that they get more money (why not) and then some are coming and saying "not normal, you have more money than us". Of course, Jews have more big companies, banks and potentially corrupted places like this since their commercial elite is successful. Result: like Americans, they have more big companies to make bad stuff and some hate the entire jewish community instead of the few bad guys with lot of power. Add to this Israel.

[Davidu]

I was talking about the political ideologies, not the economics ideologies, Edric.

[Warlord Ripskar]

The Jews became associated with banking because the Pope declared that money lending was immoral. So the only people who did lend money were the Jews in the middle ages.

[Dude_Doc]

Communists want to build a better world for everyone.

Yes, that is because the first philosophy of Marx was based on an equal society. They never thought of the rich or those who had a normal life. There are people who want to help other people, but there is also people who want to live like the do now wihtout any law that forces them to share with everyone. Then again, isn't force a link to fascism, as many people would put it?

Fascists want to violently forge a better world for a select few (especially themselves) and to kill or enslave the rest.

Not nesesary. What do we know of fascism? We know Hitler and Musolini. Especially Musolini, because he "invented" fascism. Just becaus both Hitler and Musolini ruled their country trough violent fascism doesn't mean that fascism is violent. There is violent communists too, just take a look at Greece some days ago (demostrants).

Then again, no one wants too many rules. On the other side, it depends on how hard the rules really are, and how many. Fascism can offer a more fast system, while not just in many cases.

[Davidu]

No matter what happends people will loose their equality ::)

Some people will become more important than others, and they will eventually end up ruling the state.

So, it doesen't matter if it's a fascist or communist regime, or even a democratic regime, it will end up the same way.

[Dude_Doc]

Yep. But then again, nothing is perfect in this universe. I don't expect it to be that either, now or future. I'd bet that any alien race there is out there has either had or have its problems. I don't believe there is a perfect rule. It will always be the when 50 like it, 100 does not. Or at least it seems so...

[Edric O]

This is where you are wrong, Davidu. Look at history: From the ancient world to the modern age, people got the benefit of more and more equality. As human civilization advances, human beings are granted more freedom and equality. We have rid ourselves of both slavery and aristocracy, and soon we will also eliminate racist discrimination. Equality is winning.

The only thing that communists like myself must do is to ensure that this trend continues as it has for the past 2000 years. If it does, communism is inevitable.

[SurlyPIG]

Freedom is also inevitable so communism is therefore not.

[Edric O]

What you're talking about is stalinism. Please stop confusing it with communism. I've explained it a dozen times already!

Communism, as the expression of far more equality and freedom than capitalism offers, is inevitable. The only question is when.

[Acriku]

In other words, your communism balances freedom and equality?

[Edric O]

Not just my communism. All versions of true communism are founded on the principles of equality and freedom. Without freedom, there can be no communism. Marx, Engels, Lenin and Trotsky all warned us about this, and they were proven right by the collapse of the Soviet bloc.

Socialism needs Democracy as the human body needs air.

- Leon Trotsky

[Acriku]

I find a socialist democracy intriguing, but it seems to good to be true. Do you suppose it can be brought into effect successfully? I think it would be great.

[Edric O]

A socialist/communist democracy is the ideal that I fight for. Of course it might sound too good to be true, but then again, who would have believed you a century ago if you told him that humans would walk on the Moon 60 years later? Nothing is impossible to achieve. At most, it's just extremely hard.

I have my own theory about social change: In order for society to change, the world must change first. The industrial revolution changed the world. As a result, society changed from feudalism to capitalism. In a similar way, we cannot simply wake up one morning and decide to move from capitalism to communism. A great change in the world is required first. Maybe it will be space colonization. Maybe it will be the development of thinking machines. Maybe, on the contrary, it will be a massive worldwide catastrophe. I can't forsee what this great change could be, but it will come to pass eventually. And then, when the world has changed so that capitalism is obsolete, we must be ready to fight the last remnants of the old order and finally achieve our goal of freedom and equality - Communism. Until then, all we can do is wait and prepare. And if we have the opportunity, maybe we will be able to trigger the world-changing event ourselves.

Edit: Notice that the event could also be a change in the way people see the world. A shift of values. A philosophical revolution.

[Dante]

I'm pretty much the opposite. By writing an essay in English class (heh) I've come to realise that my beliefs are essentially Fascist and Imperialist. I believe in a feudalistic heirachy. Communism in itself is not a bad system, no system is. But it is easy to twist to Stalinism or Maoism, easily corrupted. Imperialism faces no such threat as it has already reached that stage.

EDIT: Anyone want to see the essay?

[Edric O]

Ummm, so you're saying that instead of trying to build a system which could be corrupted into oppressive fascism (just like capitalism can be - see Nazi Germany), we should just install an already-corrupted system of oppressive fascism?

That's not a very good logic...

[Dante]

Pretty much, yes. It's inevitable so we might as well start strong. And the Fascism/Nasism mistake is a bit like your hated Communism/Stalinism one. It's just not true. Nazism is racist, unrealistic, anarchic, chaotic, foul. Fascism can be made to work when combined with Imperialism and possibly technocracy.

[Edric O]

Of course fascism can WORK. It already did, quite a number of times. The problem is that fascism has no intention of ensuring people's happiness, freedom, or anything else. It wants to create a regime of oppression and exploitation. And the fact that it works means that it succeeds at doing just that...

Edit: And since when is oppression, corruption and slavery inevitable? The world is moving further and further away from them all the time. Freedom is inevitable. Equality is inevitable. Oppression is losing ground day by day.

[Dante]

Yes, that's it. Keeping everyone happy is impossible, as I once said to Emprworm. So why bother trying? You'll just fail and make yourself miserable.

[Edric O]

Because by doing so, I will bring more happiness to this world. I will never make everyone happy, but I will make more people happy than there are now.

I heard a story once, about a little girl who went to the beach after a storm. The waves had thrown lots of sea life on the shore. As far as the eye could see, the beach was covered in tiny creatures struggling hopelessly to get back to the sea. So the little girl started picking them up one by one, and throwing them back into the water. After a while, an old man noticed her, and said:

"You foolish little girl! Look at how many there are! You'll never be able to save them all. What you're doing won't make any difference."

"It will make a difference to this one", said the girl holding up a small sea turtle and throwing it back into the water.

[Davidu]

I can't say I like the communist economic system, but the political one seems ok.

[Dante]

Wasn't that story one of Emprworm's?

But this is beside the point. I'm not saying that acts of kindness should be banned from a political system, just that they aren't as necessary as people tend to think.

[Edric O]

No, it wasn't Emprworm's.

But you missed the whole point of the story, Dust Scout. The moral of the story was that, just because you can't save everyone, it doesn't mean that saving some of them isn't important.

You asked me why should we strive to make a society where everyone is happy, when such a society can never actually exist. And that story was my answer: We must do this because it will make the world better, even though not perfect. I may not be able to build a world where everyone is happy, but I can build a world where more people are happy than in the world we have today!

[Davidu]

Yeah, that's the idea: to try. If you don't suceed - bad luck.

If you suceed, well, then, you're a saviour.

It matters if you try - if you try it means you care.

[nemafakei]

"Wasn't that story one of Emprworm's?"

That one has been going around for donkey's years.

The essay sounds interesting.

But a system designed specifically to make corruption (virtually) impossible... that is what I strive for; I know well that greed is the fundamental evil that opposes progression, and by giving no power to greed, then we allow no hindrance to the proper use of all things whcih may be controlled.