The Dread Legion

[DukeLeto]

Acriku, I don't care what kind of a Hillary spin some guy puts on Pantheism it means simply "All is God". It is a supernaturalist world view which has been around for centuries. Now, if you want to spin it up CLinton style and add your own definition to it, by all means go ahead.

What the h*ll is your problem with Hillary Clinton? What did she do? Just because she's married to Bill? ::)

[Acriku]

Pantheism is NOT all-god as panphobia is fear of all things, nor is is polytheism.

http://www.pantheism.net/ explains it as well. Oh, but it's just a site right?

[emprworm]

Pantheism is NOT all-god as panphobia is fear of all things, nor is is polytheism.

http://www.pantheism.net/ explains it as well. Oh, but it's just a site right?

sorry, Acriku. That is the literal meaning of the word. It is just like brainless new-age Shirley McLains to take words and make them into something they are not then make a website about it.

PAN means "ALL" POLY means MANY

Pantheism means "ALL IS GOD" while Polytheism is simply belief in MANY GODS

no amount of stupid north american shirley mclain wanna be's registering the domain "pantheism.net" will change the literal meaning of those words and the HISTORY of their practice (which is supernatural....always has been)

[Acriku]

Since when do literal translations provide the truth? You, rather childishly, choose to ignore this misconception, just because you follow the "literal translation."

[Cyborg]

It's called to be stuck and choose silly resorts... ;D

[Caid Ivik]

Since when do literal translations provide the truth? You, rather childishly, choose to ignore this misconception, just because you follow the "literal translation."

Pantheism isn't straight religion. You see the Main Thing in everything living, that can be called also pantheism, altough someone, who declared himself a pope of pantheism, may talk about something else. No religion is without sects, and everyone is an individual with his own opinions which are closer to one way and further from other way. Straight philosophical way is median of those, who are thinking closely to it.

[Edric O]

Religion has brought us where we are, but it is of no use anymore.We can sremain moral, and remain in our ways without religion. Back in history, we could not. We were fools back then, and now we have the ability to stay moral and do away with traditional superstitions.

We cannot remain moral if we don't know what "moral" means. The morals that you and most other atheists have are largely based on Christian values. Without those values, future generations might create a completely different set of morals for themselves. One where murder, rape and slavery are justified, for example.

[Cyborg]

Religion has brought us where we are, but it is of no use anymore.We can sremain moral, and remain in our ways without religion. Back in history, we could not. We were fools back then, and now we have the ability to stay moral and do away with traditional superstitions.

We cannot remain moral if we don't know what "moral" means. The morals that you and most other atheists have are largely based on Christian values. Without those values, future generations might create a completely different set of morals for themselves. One where murder, rape and slavery are justified, for example.

Hehehe, the moral "you shall not murder" and "you shall not kill" will always be there if religion pass away.

I mean, those are guidelines we are born with.(I am an atheist and as you can see, I don't think of those rules as christian rules, but simply rules of how you shall behave)

Besides the ten commandments, Edric, you have each country's laws... Following those laws should be more than enough to guide you through a peaceful life.

[DukeLeto]

We cannot remain moral if we don't know what "moral" means. The morals that you and most other atheists have are largely based on Christian values. Without those values, future generations might create a completely different set of morals for themselves. One where murder, rape and slavery are justified, for example.

Those aren't "Christian Values", because 1:

-Almost ALL religions have similar "values".

And 2:

-That would be the law. ::)

[Acriku]

Perhaps morals is not the right word - ethics is what I am getting at. Ethics and values. To think that "don't kill" and "don't cheat, lie, or steal" are christian values is ludicrous, they are obvious ethics - they merit a "duh" next to them.

[Edric O]

Tell that to the nazis.

[Acriku]

And so, moral absolutes do not exist. ;)

Back on topic, the nazis were conditioned to accept murder, I was conditioned the opposite. Conditioning plays a big role in the development.

[Edric O]

Yes. And the mere existence of it demonstrates that the values we take for granted - the values you would attach a 'DUH!' to - can and have been completely obliterated by some societies. And it may happen again.

Think about slavery, rape, polygamy, racism, MURDER... you consider all of them to be abhorent, yet they were widely accepted and even supported not so long ago.

[Acriku]

Yes... I believe that I do not question that.

[Edric O]

Good! :)

Then my point stands. Building a society on relative moral values is very dangerous. Those values may change at any time, and turn that society into the 4th Reich...

[Edric O]

Wait, I forgot about my other point. :)

It was the fact that the secular values you take for granted have not always been a part of our civilization. Many were first brought in by Christianity.

[Acriku]

All morals are relative, and if a society would be built - it would be built with morals/ethics, that are of course relative. Maybe that's why America tries to stop communism from spreading, partly - to stop societies being built off of ethics we do not hold.

What secular values were first brought in by christianity?

[Edric O]

Naturally, any society with a certain code of ethics will consider other societies with other codes of ethics to be its enemies. This goes both ways.

As for the values I was talking about, the main ones are forgiveness and unconditional love. In pre-Christian Rome, they were viewed as flaws. And cruelty was considered a virtue. Christianity changed the ruthless Roman ethics and replaced them with the ones we still have today in the western world, used by Christians and atheists alike. Namely, that charity, mercy and compassion are virtues, and most importantly that it is better to forgive than to seek vengeance. From my knowledge, this idea is unique to Christianity (and perhaps Buddhism, but I'm not sure).

[Caid Ivik]

And so, moral absolutes do not exist. ;)

Back on topic, the nazis were conditioned to accept murder, I was conditioned the opposite. Conditioning plays a big role in the development.

You've just hit the button of apocalypse. Bring off morale, or make it flexible. Altough we codified it in things we call "laws", but without main base they will perish soon. And then your children will have no problem to kill you just for legacy (not saying some people do it even now). With such nihilistic thoughts will exist a world with laws of jungle, inhabited by real Dread Legion.

[Acriku]

You are suggesting a situation without societal conditioning and development, and without parental conditioning. Perhaps, without those chaos consumes you, but we do in fact have a society, and most children have parents who bring them up on certain ethics. I am without the laws, but my conditioning and development keep me ethical in my actions and inactions.

[Caid Ivik]

But something has to teach those parents some ethical feeling. Maybe YOU are able to logically conclude that i.e. killing neighbours for food isn't good or ethical. But some people haven't such advanced mind. Most people don't sit as much time and think about what is good. They are led by quick thinking, reactions and their morale is based on what they see from others. If this thing, named society doesn't have a pillar, which can be seen by all members, there is only a sea of free, unlimited mind. And without limits in mind, there are no limits in acts.

[Acriku]

Caid, it isn't advanced thinking. Atleast, not in my society. It is expected to not kill, and my parents told me that, and I choose not to kill. In other societies, sure a lot of people may not have the convenience of this, but if we rebuild all societies to prosperity - then they can have that convenience.

[Caid Ivik]

But how you can rebuild primitive society without a law, unbased work? What should tell you how they should be like if you have no model? If you choose revolutionar way, you must tell them about what they should do and then force them to do so. If you prefer less-harming evolution, then you have to show them what is working, hoping they will find it good and accept. But some black tribeman from Africa, confrontated by our history with world wars wouldn't be so sure about it, he would see no difference between us, nihilists and moralists (sorry for generalisation).

[Acriku]

Slow societal metamorphosis, to ease them into a soceity of equality and without discrimination. But hey, if it doesn't work, then we try something else. We have been doing that for centuries and centuries, finding a system that works.

[Caid Ivik]

Equality and opposing discrimination. Those are you base values. Suitable, I can say even teached by christianity. I believe it works too, just with little additions, because there is nothing said what you, as person, can do.