The illogics of Judeo-Christian God

[emprworm]

Because the universe is all there is? Or atleast that is what Nema is saying (correct me if I am wrong).

well if the universe is defined as "all there is", then greatest possible being would be part of that definition of the universe, hence, it would not be a giant gnat.

[Acriku]

Within the universe holds the potential for a greatest possible being, if this being happened to be a giant gnat, would you worship it? This is what I gathered from Nema but don't let me say it for him.

[emprworm]

what do you mean "within the universe?" if you mean "according to natural law" then I can think of a being greater than one that exists "according to natural law".

A being "according to natural law" is not the greatest possible being.

[nemafakei]

Empr, what I'm saying is ASSUME that there is nothing but what is according to natural law and within the universe, for, in this hypothetical situation, pethaps unlike what you believe to be true, the universe encompasses everything, and within it, all runs on natural law.

Now, ASSUME the gratest possible thing the universe was able to support was a giant gnat...

Would you worship it?

[Gobalopper]

If the greatest thing was a gnat how would emprworm be able to worhsip it? Aren't humans greater then gnats? :)

[Acriku]

Greater than the greatest? Hmm...

[hilamobster13]

so yeah, the argument seems to be a perpetual loop of misunderstanding. let me clarify;

dude1; if giant gnat was the greatest possible being, would you worship it?

dude2; the greatest possible being could never be a giant gnat due to the fact that, upon being the greatest possible being, (assuming such is a defined level) the greatest possible being could not be a gnat. and upon being the greatest possible being, (assuming such is a defined level) such would be omnipotent.

dude1;but it's a gnat.

dude2;but it couldnt be a gnat.

dude1;but pretend it is.

dude2;but it couldnt.

dude1;but pretend it is.

dude2;but a gnat cant be the GPB.

dude1;but pretend it is.

and so forth and so forth.....

bah humbuckers.

[emprworm]

Empr, what I'm saying is ASSUME that there is nothing but what is according to natural law and within the universe, for, in this hypothetical situation, pethaps unlike what you believe to be true, the universe encompasses everything, and within it, all runs on natural law.

Now, ASSUME the gratest possible thing the universe was able to support was a giant gnat...

Would you worship it?

If I read you right....

Assume that there exists nothing but what is according to natural law. Ok. Done.

Now I will assume that the greatest possible thing the universe was able to support was a giant gnat. Ok. I will assume this.

I would not worship it.

Why? Because:

1) the giant gnat is still a limited, fininite, dependent being. And I would never worship a limited, finite, dependent being! :)

2) I can still conceive in my mind something greater (unlimited, infinite, independent)...and even though your hypothetical does not allow for my conception to actually exist, nevertheless, I can still conceive of a greater being.

[nemafakei]

Hmm. Interesting. Thankyou for at last answering.

If there were an all-powerful, infinite, unlimited (etc) being that happened to be incredibly malevolent (i.e. an evil version of God), would you worship it?

[sneezer3]

Would you have much a choice of geting beat up if you don't?

btw an evil one wouldn't be the best possable being ;D

[nemafakei]

It depends how you define 'greatest', I suppose.

[emprworm]

Hmm. Interesting. Thankyou for at last answering.

If there were an all-powerful, infinite, unlimited (etc) being that happened to be incredibly malevolent (i.e. an evil version of God), would you worship it?

no. I admit that the term "Greatest" has an assumption in it, nameley that: Good is "greater" than evil (and even there we need to define good & evil). If your proposed GPB (greatest possible being) you grant qualities of infinite, unlimited, malevolence. Now perhaps one might define "Greatest" to mean that evil > good, but I believe that a moral being & a perfect being would be greater than an malevolent one. Yes, there is some subjectivity here when we say 'greatest' but for the most part, I think saying "moral > immoral", "infinite > finite" should be pretty well accepted with most ppl. I believed in the GPB long before I accepted Christianity. Years before.

WHen I examined Christianity, I realized that the God that it talks about was the God I had been praying to all along.

[nemafakei]

Thankyou again. If you'll excuse one last diversion (it wans't intended to last this long), why do you worship? Assuming there is such a being, would it not be better tp do all the good you can, rather than spending time and effort on worship. Give due respect, certainly, but to pray and attend ceremonies (or whatever it is you do)?

[sneezer3]

Thankyou again. If you'll excuse one last diversion (it wans't intended to last this long), why do you worship? Assuming there is such a being, would it not be better tp do all the good you can, rather than spending time and effort on worship. Give due respect, certainly, but to pray and attend ceremonies (or whatever it is you do)?

I know this was given to the worm. but i'd like to answer it myself.

I worship by praying etc. Keeping in contact with God like you would your best friend. Bible study also is needed for spiritual food. And to know what to do, some stuff applyed today. As for all the good you can. It would be better to get people saved(from hell) would be more importent.

[emprworm]

Thankyou again. If you'll excuse one last diversion (it wans't intended to last this long), why do you worship? Assuming there is such a being, would it not be better tp do all the good you can, rather than spending time and effort on worship. Give due respect, certainly, but to pray and attend ceremonies (or whatever it is you do)?

because I believe that the GPB is most certainly a being deserving of human worship. I believed in this being nearly all of my life. It wasn't until several years ago, while studying Christianity (i've studied all major religions) that I realized the being i had believed in and was searching for, was right there.

Humans are finited, limited, dependent beings.

An infinite, unlimited, independent being, who created all humans, is most definately deserving of their submission.

If the GPB does indeed exist, (and there is an argument that He does, called the ontological argument), then those prayers are certainly well spent.

IF the GPB does not exist, then who cares....we just die anyway and thats that.

[SurlyPIG]

Deserving? Sure, but what makes you think it wants your worship? It could very well just as disapprove and and think of it as trivial.

[emprworm]

Deserving? Sure, but what makes you think it wants your worship? It could very well just as disapprove and and think of it as trivial.

yea, it could. but my chances are better if I pay him homage than if i just thumb my nose. logic tells me that if the GPB exists, I would do well to acknowledge my inferiority.

[SurlyPIG]

No it doesn't. This GPB has made absolutely no indication of itself to you or to anyone. Given this, doesn't logic suggest that it does not care about you or anyone else? Perhaps not care is inaccurate...Doesn't logic suggest that it has no partiality towards you or anyone else on Earth?

[emprworm]

No it doesn't. This GPB has made absolutely no indication of itself to you or to anyone.

what are you talking about? The GPB has made himself known to me as clear as could be. Do you require direct observation in order to believe something, Ace?