Thufir Hawat

[Anathema]

In Dune Thufir was supposedly extremely loyal to house Atreides, but after his service under baron Harkonnen he wanted to kill Paul. Paul foresaw it, and gave him the choice of doing so, and Thufir killed himself instead.

So I'm wondering why he wanted to kill Paul in the first place, and if we could possibly call him really loyal. Opinions?

[TMA_1]

If I remember right, thufir didnt want to kill paul, but was basically made to. Also I do believe that thufir wondered about paul and where he was going with him involving himself with the fremen peoples. Again dont know if that helps but that is what I got. I had the same problem too so I just thought about it a while.lol :)

[Anathema]

He had that residual poison in him, so they could use that to blackmail him, but it doesn't seem that a death threat would be enough to force him to betray Paul.

You mean Thufir had his doubts about the fremen? Doesn't quite seem like a reason to kill him.

[GhostHunter]

If my recolection serves me right, which truthfully, it most likely does not...

I do not recall any mention of Thufir wanting to actually kill Paul, and I dont EVER remembering him killing himself...

Remember this Earth, the Baron was talking to the Emperor and the Baron said he sent Thufir out on some mission that he didnt have the medicine to survive from and that he would die out there or something like that, so the poisen is what killed him...

[TMA_1]

no no no no no no no no no.lol he was killed by his own hands. I know that for a definite fact.

[Vanguard3000]

Yeah.

[hide]He pricked himself with the poisoned stiletto.[/hide]

Anyway, my understanding was that the Harkonnens tried to "brainwash" him, but with only some success. He was given the pin to kill Paul - his reward being temporary immunity from Piter's Residual Poison. He then "came to his senses" after talking with Paul, and used the weapon on himself.

[TMA_1]

yup. that is exactly it.

[Andrew]

Maybe the harks said they would find a cure for the poison if he killed Paul( if it was curable although i dont think it was). It might have been another reason.

[Colonel_Worf]

A mentat needs work you know. That was one of the finer points of the book. It's a shame it has been left out of both the movie and the miniseries.

[Timenn]

Yes, that sucks.

It was one of the better parts in the book

[Anathema]

But the baron was dead, and Shadam was the one to tell him to kill Paul. But did Shadam even have any antidote?

[Colonel_Worf]

Doubtful. Shaddam wouldn't have cared for a simple mentat.

[nemafakei]

I think he decided to kill Paul because he blamed Jessica for the betrayal, and then thought that she had corrupted Paul.

[Anathema]

Nemas idea seems the most plausible to me. I don't think the Harks could have brainwashed somebody that was so loyal.

[bob_fox]

I read the book very recently and Thufir did indeed kill himself.

It never said or implied, though, that he wanted to kill Paul. He DID originally want to kill Jessica, but somehow found out that she was innocent (the book doesn't explain how or when he finds out). He said he was sorry that he doubted her (in front of her and Paul) and then killed himself.

Now, remember that Thufir had advised Vladimir to stop sending troops to aid Rabban. This was a bad move for Vlad and I think that he (Thufir) did this on purpose. But he may have felt guilty anyway for the other services he'd provided for Vlad or he could have just felt bad for doubting Jessica. He could have also felt that he had somehow failed Leto (the book mentions earlier that he felt this way).

There could be another reason, but I didn't pay too much attention to this part of the book. And remember, I just said I'd read the book recently; I'm not an expert.

[stilgar]

i dont quite understand why thufir killed himself

[Vanguard3000]

Thufir was ashamed that he briefly wanted/tried/was forced to kill Paul. Also, he was afflicted with the residual poison, which would have killed him within a day or so.

[bob_fox]

I don't remember the book ever saying that Thufir intended to kill Paul at all. Where does it say that? (I'm not implying that you're wrong; I'm just saying I could have missed something.)

[Vanguard3000]

He was given the poisoned pin so that he could kill Paul.

[Colonel_Worf]

That is something I have totally forgotten. (Time for a reread.)

[stilgar]

But wasnt he killed by an explosion

[Colonel_Worf]

That was the miniseries version. They just felt like leaving an important subplot out...

[Vanguard3000]

...And that was Duncan Idaho who was killed by the missile.

[Mahdi]

1) Thufir never intended to kill Paul. He only accepted the mission to see with his own eyes that Paul was still alive. He was never going to actually kill him.

2) Thufir died of the residual poison.

3) Thufir did die in an explosion int he miniseries.

3) Duncan may or may not have died by a Harkonnen missile. If you watch the scene closly, you see the missile strike the rock wall, killing two fremen. Duncan was standing in the desert, not on the ledge the missile struck. You do not see Duncan die by this missile, only the two fremen on the ledge. Therefore, it is quite possible Duncan was not killed by the missile and died in combat with the Harkonnens. Either way, we'll probably find out for sure in another couple weeks.

[Anathema]

I'm pretty sure that Paul had a vision in wich Thufir killed him.