UK accused of lifting dossier text (aka making up proof)

[zamboe]

I think you also mentioned that Bush is responsible for the current economy problems in the U.S. That is simply not true. Bill Clinton is the reason that the economy is in the current trouble that it is by not bringing more scrutiny on those over inflated values of DOT com companies. Bush simply inherited Bill's poor management and he is trying to fix the problem. Some problems can't be fixed in a couple of years.

That is simply true. Bill Clinton is the responsable of bringing to the US people to the largest economic expansion (strong growth with very low inflation) ever.

The dot com bubble started just in the last 2 years of this administration. You seem to forget that the previous 6 years (1993-1999) where the growth came from a good mix of economic policies, he fixed the mess up that Reagan left.

US citizens should be greatful to Bill Clinton.

"He could point to the lowest unemployment rate in modern times, the lowest inflation in 30 years, the highest home ownership in the country's history, dropping crime rates in many places, and reduced welfare roles. He proposed the first balanced budget in decades and achieved a budget surplus. " Do you think Bush will be able to present such results after this administration ?.

[SurlyPIG]

First, do not expect that an arab thinks the way western society does. The majority of the world (including myself) have a very different way to see, intrepret and live : freedom, democracy and rights. And yes they DO care about the motivation.

No they don't. Have you ever met a free Iraqi that ever made it out of Iraq alive and with their family? Hussein is more brutal than Stalin, without any genuine support whatsoever. The entire country lives in fear, and dies in fear. Those that aren't puppets of propaganda would jump at the chance to liberate their country. The US is training and stocking Iraqi citizens in Kuwait and other surrounding countries as we speak. They're ordinary Iraqis taking up arms to overthrow Hussein.

If you need an example of what'll happen in Iraq, look at Afghanistan. Minimal casualties, maximum benefits. I suppose you'd rather tell the 11.5 million women in Afghanistan that they don't deserve freedom because "USA wasn't being honest about their motive."

I've never said that war shouldn't go on. I challenge you to quote what I said that, otherwise apologize to me. You are making up BS.

Then why are you bitching about the US and what YOU, a single insignificant foreigner, perceive to be their motive? You cant walk a different walk than you talk.

What I say firmly is that the US motivation is primary oil.

Let's see some PROOF. Nobody needs Iraqi oil. Not the US, not OPEC, nobody. They can get it elsewhere. The USA has a huge supply screaming to be drilled in Alaska. After Venezuela solves it's current political unrest it will reap the benefits of massive foreign oil projects. My dad works in the oil business. I KNOW this. It is a fact. The ONE thing Iraqi oil has going for it is that it needs less refining than other oil.

What I say firmly is that the existance of weapons of mass destruction is a secondary reason for the US.

BS. Everything they've said is about the safety of their citizens and violations of UN agreements. It is the forefront of their hostility to Iraq. Do you have *ANY* objective proof that says otherwise?

What I said before and I say again is that Hussein must be replaced by force if necessary, but if it will be done, the right motivations must be declared.

So what do you want to happen? Do you want the US to say, "Hussein is an inhumane psycho and we will invade Iraq to remove him from power and free the Iraqi people." That's totally illegal. Completely against what the UN stands for. The UN would immediately expel the USA and WWIII would likely break out. You think you can just say "Your government is bad" and invade? BS. What if, for whatever reason, the US were to say "Blair is an inhumane psycho and we will invade Britain to remove him from power and free the British people." Unless the UN passed resolutions violated by Britian that had a clause for war, it's completely illegal.

If you really care about the Iraqi people stop sitting on your ass bitching paranioa about what you THINK Bush's motive is.

They borrowed history from a student? Big whoop. They didn't borrow intelligence from him. Didn't you hear the radio interceptions in Powell's presentation? Didn't you see the time lapsed satellite photos? Or did you just not want to look because you so utterly hate Americans that you can't even conceive of them doing something for the good of others?

[number6]

zamboe,

Your right. Back on the ignore list you go.

Earthnuker,

I don't think we can take the word of Bin Laden on anything. I think it is highly probable for him to say one thing publicly and still accept money from Sadaam.

About your solution. We tried an embargo and then we get blamed for starving the citizens of Iraq. I see that you wish for a peaceful solution and I respect that. The U.S. is not going to war for oil as the narrow minded Zamboe continues to profess. It is more than the U.K. and the U.S. that will go to war. I think the only 2 countries that are totally against war right now are Germany and France. I know a lot of the countries have said that they will go to war only with U.N. approval. If the U.N. does not approve military action or something severe like that then the U.N. has rendered itself useless in my opinion.

[SurlyPIG]

Ah yes, let's go to Iraq and make a run through Bagdad, maybe get a few thoused civilians killed and have Sadam throw missiles (since you're so convinced he has them) at Tel Aviv. Much better.

LOL skuds could never reach Tel Aviv. Especially not Iraqi skuds. Skuds from Bagdhad would be lucky to make it out of Iraq.

Civillians will die. That is an unfortuneate reality. But what the heck can you do when the cowardly regime builds military bases next to schools, hospitals, centers for the disabled etc.

[zamboe]

No they don't. Have you ever met a free Iraqi that ever made it out of Iraq alive and with their family? Hussein is more brutal than Stalin, without any genuine support whatsoever. The entire country lives in fear, and dies in fear.

Yes they do. Do not expect other cultures think the same way you do. They interpret fear, obligation, etc in a much different way you do.

You just see too much TV, your brain seems to be washed.

I've never said that war shouldn't go on. I challenge you to quote what I said that, otherwise apologize to me. You are making up BS.

Then why are you bitching about the US and what YOU, a single insignificant foreigner, perceive to be their motive? You cant walk a different walk than you talk.

You didn't quote. So YOU LIED AND MADE THAT UP, because I've never said that.

"single insignificant foreigner" , I love this part, just great !, Yes indeed I am foreigner to the US, but I am not insignificant, you know, I guess I did wake up your KKK side, always looking down to this part of the world. Insults is the looser language.

Btw if you didn't notice you are a foreigner too. Although I don't think you are insignificant.

Nobody needs Iraqi oil. Not the US, not OPEC, nobody. They can get it elsewhere.

Everybody needs Iraq's oil. Of course they can get it elsewhere, if they find it a good price.( that's impossible).

My dad works in the oil business. I KNOW this. It is a fact.

WOW, and that makes your dad a super wise oil expert ? LOL. You don't know about it. I remember when you used to said that the oil business is the most regulated in the world and how I proved you the contrary. Oil is most unregulated and corrupted business (just right after drug business).

So what do you want to happen? Do you want the US to say, "Hussein is an inhumane psycho and we will invade Iraq to remove him from power and free the Iraqi people." That's totally illegal.

You said it, it's totally illegal, I can add no more.

If you really care about the Iraqi people stop sitting on your ass bitching paranioa about what you THINK Bush's motive is.

I care about not only Iraqi people also I care about Iranian people, what I ask you is to stop your paranoia about what you think Iraq's reality is. There are more civilized ways to acomplish the changes.

Didn't you hear the radio interceptions in Powell's presentation? Didn't you see the time lapsed satellite photos? Or did you just not want to look because you so utterly hate Americans that you can't even conceive of them doing something for the good of others?

And how come you are 100% sure those interceptions and and photos are REAL ?

I don't hate US citizens. In fact I have many friends there and here too that are US citizens, what's interesting is that they understand my point of view and share some ideas better than you do.

Good of others ? First ask those others what is good for then, instead of thinking you already know what's best for all.

[Elite47]

Its one thing for a country to have military power and nukes etc... But a country with a fucking insane leader like Hussein should not even have a knife let alone nuclear weapons!EDIT ---> Infact HE SHOULD NOT EVEN BE IN POWER, HE NEEDS TO BE TAKEN OUT(KILLED) Anyone who thinks he should be left to rule ANYONE or ANYTHING is crazy and needs to live in a real country like the USA to experience real life. It's not perfect here but it sure as hell is better!

[rigel6669]

I am still waiting for the proof ...

[SurlyPIG]

Yes they do. Do not expect other cultures think the same way you do. They interpret fear, obligation, etc in a much different way you do.

You just see too much TV, your brain seems to be washed.

So you call live, empirical, indisputable video and recordings along with bodies and witnesses is being brainwashed?

Since you dodged this before I'll ask it again. Have you ever even MET an Iraqi, let alone know anything about them and where they come from?

You didn't quote. So YOU LIED AND MADE THAT UP, because I've never said that.

You didn't have to. Obviously you are opposed to any war started for greed (oil). In the same post you say this war is being started for oil. 2+2=4.

"single insignificant foreigner" , I love this part, just great !, Yes indeed I am foreigner to the US, but I am not insignificant, you know, I guess I did wake up your KKK side, always looking down to this part of the world. Insults is the looser language.

NEVER so much as MENTION me in the same sentance of the KKK. You know NOTHING about me you arrogant swine.

Of course I'm an insignificant foreigner. Do you think I believe what I say about this situation actually matters? That's stupidly and egotistical. My opinion doesn't mean squat. I've never lived in Iraq, I havn't seen what goes on there with my OWN eyes. Of the Iraqi's I'm lucky enough to know, all are outspoken supporters of any war that will get rid of Hussein's regime and establish a UN-assisted democratic government that will honour human rights. THEIR opinions matter. Yours don't, mine don't. THEY'RE the one's who should get a say in whether the war should go or not. Not you or I.

Everybody needs Iraq's oil. Of course they can get it elsewhere, if they find it a good price.( that's impossible).

ROFL!!! Ah this is just getting too easy!

Lets see a single set of data that Iraq is the only place in the world where quality oil can be obtained cheaply. Screw Iraq, we have Alaska, Canada, Central America, Saudi Arabia and even the far east if we need oil. Iraq is barely a grey stain on the oil map of the world.

WOW, and that makes your dad a super wise oil expert ? LOL. You don't know about it. I remember when you used to said that the oil business is the most regulated in the world and how I proved you the contrary. Oil is most unregulated and corrupted business (just right after drug business).

It's something I discuss with him regularly. What I say comes straight from him, and what he says comes straight from the source. Tell me, how many decades have you worked in the industry? How many tens of thousands of hours have you put into the industry? How many years did you spend training to work in the industry? Who the HELL are you to question what he knows about his carrer?

LMAO! The oil industry is easily the most heavilly regulated industry there is. It's the only successful international business that maintained a "homeostasis" in price, thanks to OPEC. There isn't a single other industry that even compares to the oil industry in the relationship between its size and importance and its stability. Even in times of hardship a steady price can be maintained if there are signs of change.

You said it, it's totally illegal, I can add no more.

So what do you expect to happen? Do you want the USA to just sit back and say "Gee we'd better not help these innocent people from starvation and slaughter. If we tried people might think we were after oil."

I care about not only Iraqi people also I care about Iranian people, what I ask you is to stop your paranoia about what you think Iraq's reality is. There are more civilized ways to acomplish the changes.

LOL! You think you can be civilized with Saddam Hussein??? He absolutely slaughtered hundreds of Kurds, his OWN people. Civilized? HELL no. Not even sanctions are working. He just starves his people instead of himself.

Imagine what would happen if we tried each way...

Zamboe : "Mr. Hussein sir, could you please honour human rights, respect your people, and hold real elections sir?"

Hussein : "No."

Zamboe : "Pretty please?"

Hussein : "No."

Zamboe : "Ok. I guess I've done all I can."

ACE : "Hussein, disarm yourself or face a war of liberation."

Hussein : (Prepares for war)

>>War occurs. Hussein is killed. The UN steps in and creates a new government. Sanctions are lifted. People are released. Iraqi society changes. Human rights are respected.<<

And how come you are 100% sure those interceptions and and photos are REAL ?

Gee, you're right. ::) I'd better believe the Iraqi regime, which has been found responsible for violating international conventions, abusing human rights, propogating lies, murdering political opponents, INVADING A WEALTHIER COUNTRY, and slaughtering ethnic minorities. Lets believe them over the CIA.

I don't hate US citizens. In fact I have many friends there and here too that are US citizens, what's interesting is that they understand my point of view and share some ideas better than you do.

So, in other words, "I don't hate US citizens that agree with me. I only hate the ones who disagree."

Good of others ? First ask those others what is good for then, instead of thinking you already know what's best for all.

We HAVE. Time and time and time again. Nearly every single time they say "Lives will be lost, but thousands of times more lives will be freed and prosper." It is extremely rare to hear an anti-war Iraqi that is out of harms way. The ONLY reason they would be pro-Hussein is if they have family that live under his regime. Dozens of Iraqi scientists have defected on the conditions of refugee status for them and their families. That's right, the Iraqi government will kill the wives and children of those who align themselves with the civilized world. Don't believe what Iraqis say in Iraq. They fear for their lives. People wouldn't DREAM of speaking against Hussein in Iraq, because they know full well that they'd be dead the next day.

[number6]

ACElethal,

You have done an excellent job in responding to Zamboe. The problem is that Zamboe does not understand what you are trying to say. It's like talking to a brick wall, except a brick wall does not talk back in incoherent babble. That's why he is on my ignore list. Keep up the good work though :) .

[SurlyPIG]

thanks number6, my hope is that reason can reach anyone.

[Anathema]

Zamboe, keep in mind that even though Iraq has a lot of oil, they don't have the capacity to exploit all of it. It would take billions, and a lot of years, to set up a large industry there. Presidents usually don't think long term like that because the rewards will not come in their term.

[SurlyPIG]

Yes, that's very true. That's what I think is the biggest flaw of the term-based political system. Leaders never make economic decisions that are good for the long term, they only want to make themselves look good, get re-elected, leave a legacy and a path of success for their party. Party and term reform is needed.

[zamboe]

Since you dodged this before I'll ask it again. Have you ever even MET an Iraqi, let alone know anything about them and where they come from?

I don't dodge that Q.

No, I've never met and Iraqi citizen or Iraqi refugee.

That does make my point of view wrong ? NO.

That does make my approach wrong ? NO.

But let me tell you a very similar example of my real experience.

I've been in Miami,FL and when I was there I was taken by a friend of mine (US citizen, his fathers are cuban refugees since the 80's), he took me to his house in a place called Little Havana, deep inside Miami, where they told me how much they heat Cuba goverment, how the human rights are violated on a daily basis in Cuba, how people that think politically different are kept in jale and sometimes killed, how in Cuba there is no freedom for the press, how the goverment has monopolized the media, etc. Touched me deeply when his parents told me that they expect to be alive when the day came in which they can go back to a liberated Cuba and be there their last days and die in peace in the land where they were born. My friend who speask spanish perfectly (english too of course)with a very notorious cuban accent, told me " I speak like cuban, I have cuban blood, I eat cuban food, my g/f is a cuban refugee, but I've never been in Cuba, I was born here ".

Cubans are good in almost all sports, they have a top program to send sport trainers (coach) to several countries in South America to help us improve the level of our trainning. Well, I met one of this Cuban trainers (taekwondo), he absolutely loved the Cuban revolution, he loved and admired Fidel Castro (Cuba's president), he reminds me that in Cuba all childrens have food, all have GRANTED education (university included), medical care granted for life, he agrees that the goverment monopolizes the media, etc.

I could add more but I think I made my point clear.

Others must not decide what's good or bad for them.

So, going back to Iraq's issue, sure you will find Iraq's refugees that will ask for an inmediaty action against Iraq's gov., but I can assure you that there are millions too that DO NOT WANT that, of course the western media won't show that opinions.

One part of the population has no right to decide to star a war against it's own fellow citizens. Iraq's gov. has great support inside it's own country, I wish they had no support, but they do.

Essentially your arguement is that the war should not go on because you THINK, you INTERPRET the US as greedy for oil

I challenge you AGAIN, I hope you don't dodge this again. I challenge you to quote where and when I said that the war shouldn't go on. QUOTE IT. Otherwise you are proving yourself as a lier.

Iraq is barely a grey stain on the oil map of the world.

Iraq = Second largest reserves of oil in the world. (great reserve of natural gas too).

You have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about.

It's something I discuss with him regularly. What I say comes straight from him, and what he says comes straight from the source.

And you expect the source recognizes it's non regulation ?. They won't. The fact he works in the industry does not make that remarks correct.

Tell me, how many decades have you worked in the industry? How many tens of thousands of hours have you put into the industry? How many years did you spend training to work in the industry?

It's not the point. I don't work yet.

But, it's not only me that says that the oil business is most unregulated in the world, it's the public position of the WORLD BANK (W.B.), and the INTERNATIONAL MONETARY FOUND (I.M.F.) the biggest country financial institutions in the world. And I respect their opinion more than anyother opinion about the oil bizz.

Who the HELL are you to question what he knows about his carrer?

An "insignificant foreigner" that sometimes read the W.B. reports about oil bizz.

So what do you expect to happen? Do you want the USA to just sit back and say "Gee we'd better not help these innocent people from starvation and slaughter. If we tried people might think we were after oil."

Is starvation and slaughter happenning only in Iraq ?. NO.

Is starvation and slaughter worst in Iraq than in any other dictatorial gov in the world ?. NO.

If that would be reason, then "WHY" the US don't go to central Africa, where canibalization is going on, where exists the ulimate corruption, where people are being executed (hung up) in public, where goverments are covering the drugs dealing, and don't forget North Korea. Therefore I DO THINK that they go to Iraq for oil.

And how come you are 100% sure those interceptions and and photos are REAL ?

Gee, you're right. ::) I'd better believe the Iraqi regime, which has been found responsible for violating international conventions, abusing human rights, propogating lies, murdering political opponents, INVADING A WEALTHIER COUNTRY, and slaughtering ethnic minorities. Lets believe them over the CIA.

Does the CIA has a clean past ?

Does the CIA was never questioned before ?

The proof presented last week was very week. Is that all they got after 12 year of spy ?. The proof was so weak that no country payed atention to it.

If the proof would have been strong and undsputable then the reaction would have been different and support would have been given inmediately.

I don't hate US citizens. In fact I have many friends there and here too that are US citizens, what's interesting is that they understand my point of view and share some ideas better than you do.

So, in other words, "I don't hate US citizens that agree with me. I only hate the ones who disagree."

Can't you read ?, I said " I don't hate US citizens ". I don't hate any of them, no matter if they agree or not.

I also said "they share SOME ideas ", it means that my US friends in real life not always agree with me.

YOU AGAIN MADE UP BS. At this point I am not sourprised anymore.

NEVER so much as MENTION me in the same sentance of the KKK. You know NOTHING about me you arrogant swine.

You called me "insignificant foreigner".

You called me "arrogant swine".

I have no doubt so far that you practice discrimination, you use the same language of discrimination of other extreme groups, you sound like the people that supported the apartheid in South Africa some years ago. I keep what I said, I woke up your hidden side.

Then why are you bitching about the US and what YOU, a single insignificant foreigner, perceive to be their motive?

What you call bitching, I call FREEDOM OF Expression. I can say my political view of anything as long as I respect the rules of this forum. You call it bitching, ok, that's another way of discrimination, very yours.

I'll finish with this.

You seem to focus on the human rights violations in Iraq and how some people are not suffering about that. And you want inmediate action against Hussein by the US, with or without UN support, and you want him killed among his other colaborators.

I agree about the changes that needs to be taken not only in Iraq, but I only can accept any action under the UN support, the UN is actually the only.

You didn't mention about weapons or links with terrorist organization, so I didn't reply to that.

There is an special "Iraq issues" post to debate about that, it'd be better if you post your remarks there, because you went totally off topic about this post.

I'd post some W.B and I.M.F links if you want, I doubt however that you'd read them.

[zamboe]

ACElethal,

You have done an excellent job in responding to Zamboe. The problem is that Zamboe does not understand what you are trying to say. It's like talking to a brick wall, except a brick wall does not talk back in incoherent babble. That's why he is on my ignore list. Keep up the good work though :) .

Well, now there is no doubt about who's gonna be the number6 nominee for the landsraad. Number6, don't say that is why I am on your ignore list, you know that what you did was not correct, but I'll post about that in the near future.