Cloned Baby Supposedly Born

[TMA_1]

the word "opinion" added to nema's post.lol

[SurlyPIG]

The Bible contains many such metaphorical stories that are not to be taken at face value. I have already explained why (about 1 million times): You couldn't tell people in 500 BC how it really happened, because they would never believe you. In fact, the same probably applies to US as well.

How do you know how they are to be taken? Have you spoken with the apparent author of the bible? Neither you nor I know what they mean. One can only interpret. And that's when it becomes stupid.

It might make more sense to YOU, but I have proved in a previous post that they are both just as likely. Logically speaking, they are on perfectly equal footing.

They are both false, if that's what you are saying. They are both nonsensical. But the notion that God has always "just been" is dumb to me. From our perspective, the chaos theory is theoretically impossible. But it makes a lot more sense for life to slowly and primitively emerge from simple substances than it is for a supreme being to emerge from nothingness.

Your opinion only goes to show that humans have difficulty trying to picture things that do not follow the known laws of physics, even if those things make perfect sense on paper. An entity that has created the universe clearly doesn't follow our laws of physics, yet you take that as a reason to disprove it. ::)

Yes, I do. Unlike the French, I follow the philosophy "innocent until proven guilty". You have already said that there is no reason to believe these Raelians and follow their teachings. There is also no reason to follow the teachings of the bible (other than if you genuinely like them), yet you do, flying in the face of everything logical and rational. It is the same for virtually all religion. There's no reason at all to believe in any of them, historically speaking anyway. If you enjoy the lifestyle for some reason, so be it.

Ah, but the belief that the Earth is flat has been scientifically disproven.

Christian one moment, but scientist the next. Which logic do you follow? If you try and objectively prove/disprove the existence of God, you'll realise how much it sounds like a fairy tail. Think about it; a supreme being (whom we have automatically assigned the male sex to) who creates all life and every person, judges each person and depending on whether he is "obeyed" or "disobeyed" grants eternity of the perfect existence or an eternity of damnation. It serves only to divide people; the ones who believe and the ones who don't. And it serves only to increase the ranks of those who believe. The bible condemns suicide, after all we can't have Christians killing themselves, that would make the religion look bad and decrease the ranks of Christians. (by the way this is standard with just about any religion, not just Christianity. So don't think I'm picking on you. The point of any religion is world domination) The bible and the Church encourage Christians to have lots of kids. After all, Christian parents have Christian kids, therefore increasing the total number in the world. They condemn contraception. After all, you can't have Christians having sex without having kids.

Not only is it a ridiculous notion, but Jesus Himself said it was wrong. He said we should never make a connection between disease and sin.

How do you even know what Jesus said, if he really existed? You can only believe the text of a millenia-old book.

Well, it seems there IS after all someone here who I can never have any respect for. Namely you. You are a pathetic piece of worthless human filth.

And you are a puppet, manipulated by the hands of Christianity. Because I do not believe in your God, I am suddenly a piece of worthless human filth. Congratulations. You value a God you cannot see more than you value your fellow man. You know nothing about me or what I believe is reasonable. In a typical intolerant fashion, you have prejudged me. I think dying for a God you cannot see is stupid. Dying for a way of life is logical, if you value that life and if you want future generations to live it.

You place no value on self-sacrifice and martyrdom, therefore I place no value on you. Weak-mindedness, you say? Any one of those weak-minded "fools" was 100 times the human you'll ever be! Would YOU die a horrible death for what you believe in? Would YOU resist to horrible torture and not say a word? Would YOU not hesitate to enter the Roman arena?

For my family, yes. To save the innocent, yes. For God, no way. He doesn't exist. I would not die for a figment of anyone's imagination.

Or would you cower in a corner and beg for mercy, like the pathetic hypocrite that you are?

What a wonderful example of religous hate.

Do you have ANYTHING to live and die for, other than your own beloved self?

But hey, that is from my perspective. We all carry our own bias, don't we? ::)

Indeed. But because I am not foolish or short-sighted, I do not call you a worthless piece of filth, pathetic hypocrit, etc because of your beliefs. As an atheist I do not believe in anything so strongly. You'll never catch me calling you a worthless piece of filth simply because you believe in God, but because you DO believe in God, you lose your ability to objectively analyze, and you won't hesitate to say those things to any non-Christian. That is the difference between you and me, and that is the difference between theism and atheism. You believe so strongly in something so vague that when it is challenged, you'll defend it like a shield, no matter how far you have to go. Thats why religion causes war and suffering. It's pointless, and people will die for it.

If you cannot handle my comments, or Acriku's without flaming, perhaps you should either refrain from responding or place us on your ignore list. Nobody comes here to hear you call every atheist a worthless piece of filth.

[Acriku]

It's strange that A LOT of what the Bible "says" what happened, is nothing but hearsay. And yet people follow it without question. It's a damned good thing the author didn't put anything in it like examples of the killing of children and women *phew*...Oh sh*t they did...Well atleast no one follows by example...Oh sh*t they do...

[Edric O]

How do you know how they are to be taken? Have you spoken with the apparent author of the bible? Neither you nor I know what they mean. One can only interpret.

I follow logical reasoning and draw conclusions on how to take different parts of the Bible. You might disagree with my logic, but you have no right to impose your interpretation on me. You take one particulary extreme and unscientific interpretation and use it to disprove the Bible, while ignoring all the other reasonable interpretations out there. (because they wouldn't support your argument)

They are both false, if that's what you are saying. They are both nonsensical.

Very well, mr. scientist. Prove it.

But the notion that God has always "just been" is dumb to me.

Do you not understand the simple fact that there is no such thing as "time" outside the universe? TIME only exists within our universe! You ask what did God do before the universe? There is no "before"!!

But it makes a lot more sense for life to slowly and primitively emerge from simple substances than it is for a supreme being to emerge from nothingness.

Read above. God did not emerge from nothingness. He did not "emerge" at all. In order for something to emerge, time must exist. Which is not the case outside the universe.

There is also no reason to follow the teachings of the bible (other than if you genuinely like them), yet you do, flying in the face of everything logical and rational.

No reason to you, maybe. But not everyone thinks the same way you do. (if more people understood this simple fact, a lot of wars would have been averted)

Tell me, what do you live for?

Christian one moment, but scientist the next.

I can be both. Too bad you don't understand that.

If you try and objectively prove/disprove the existence of God, you'll realise how much it sounds like a fairy tail. Think about it; a supreme being (whom we have automatically assigned the male sex to) who creates all life and every person, judges each person and depending on whether he is "obeyed" or "disobeyed" grants eternity of the perfect existence or an eternity of damnation.

I don't remember any fairy tales with that subject. Do you?

It serves only to divide people; the ones who believe and the ones who don't. And it serves only to increase the ranks of those who believe. The bible condemns suicide, after all we can't have Christians killing themselves, that would make the religion look bad and decrease the ranks of Christians. (by the way this is standard with just about any religion, not just Christianity. So don't think I'm picking on you. The point of any religion is world domination) The bible and the Church encourage Christians to have lots of kids. After all, Christian parents have Christian kids, therefore increasing the total number in the world. They condemn contraception. After all, you can't have Christians having sex without having kids.

It also serves to motivate millions of people to be generous, to help those in need, to create countless charity organization, to bring comfort to the suffering...

Show me where does the Bible encourage anyone to have lots of kids.

Show me where does the Bible say anything about contraceptions.

And please explain to me how exactly were the founders of Christianity plotting world domination while being chased by Roman legionnaires. ::)

Again you are showing your hypocrisy. You accuse me of religious hate, yet you have a raging atheist hate against all religions. You accuse us of every crime you can possibly think of, while you hold a dogmatic hate of religion. You seem ready to start an atheist Jihad.

And you are a puppet, manipulated by the hands of Christianity. Because I do not believe in your God, I am suddenly a piece of worthless human filth.

I didn't flame you because you are an atheist. I flamed you because you have no respect for heroes and martyrs who had the courage to die for what they believed in.

In a typical intolerant fashion, you have prejudged me.

In response to you prejudging a great number of people you have never met (the early Christians), yes.

...but because you DO believe in God, you lose your ability to objectively analyze, and you won't hesitate to say those things to any non-Christian.

Any non-Christian? Hardly! I respect members of other world religions. I respect all Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus...

But I have no respect for atheism.

You believe so strongly in something so vague that when it is challenged, you'll defend it like a shield, no matter how far you have to go. Thats why religion causes war and suffering. It's pointless, and people will die for it.

I will never defend my beliefs by doing something which goes AGAINST those very beliefs! But that doesn't matter to you, does it? You don't judge Christianity by the words of the Bible, or by the works of all the good Christians who brought love and compassion to this world. You pick the worst you can possibly find, and judge us all by THEM!

Do you have ANYTHING to live and die for, other than your own beloved self?

God. Life. Humanity. In that order. I serve God, all Life and Humanity in particular. My life has value only in the contribution I bring to those three things. If either of them requires me to die, I will.

Nobody comes here to hear you call every atheist a worthless piece of filth.

Two words:

Nema Fakei

He is a strong atheist and one of my best friends. If all atheists were like him, I would give atheism the same respect I give to any world religion. It is most unfortunate that the majority are as hateful and hypocritical as yourself...

[Acriku]

I follow logical reasoning and draw conclusions on how to take different parts of the Bible. You might disagree with my logic, but you have no right to impose your interpretation on me. You take one particulary extreme and unscientific interpretation and use it to disprove the Bible, while ignoring all the other reasonable interpretations out there. (because they wouldn't support your argument)

You do know that millions, probably more, Christians disagree with you on this? You actually see the truth in the fallacies of the Bible, but you set it aside with a neat name "allegory." Anything you find to be true, is not an allegory. Jesus' miracles are mosty likely an allegory, if not totally a joke, Jesus' existence could be an allegory itself! If not a total joke...

Very well, mr. scientist. Prove it.

Why should he? When you can't prove it is the truth in the first place...

Do you not understand the simple fact that there is no such thing as "time" outside the universe? TIME only exists within our universe! You ask what did God do before the universe? There is no "before"!!

Oh while you're at it, tell us what he eats for breakfast! ::)

I don't remember any fairy tales with that subject. Do you?

Here's one: One day big guy God came to good guy Noah and gave him special powers to build an ark unimaginably huge and unrealistic, and infinite food, and called the animals of the forest and land to fly away to this magical ark...You get the story.

It also serves to motivate millions of people to be generous, to help those in need, to create countless charity organization, to bring comfort to the suffering...

It also served many KKK members to justify themselves in the faces of many black people...It's all a matter of interpretation. You can say it was made to help people, and I can say it was actually made to put white men on top of women and other races, but who's wrong? They both are existant in history?

Any non-Christian? Hardly! I respect members of other world religions. I respect all Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus...

But I have no respect for atheism.

So you're saying that whatever does not believe in a superior being above us all deserves no respect from you? That's total bs. You have no respect for something that is the lack of something, oh mr superior person who I can't get respect for waaaah

:'(

[emprworm]

EDRIC:

Acriku, I have the utmost respect for ANYONE willing to die for his/her beliefs

I just dont understand this. Since you are from Romania, you probably never heard of the Jonestown Massacre where more than 900 people "died for their beliefs". These people had no honor. They had no wisdom. They were brainwashed. They had no value for life. How can you respect that? When someone has so little value for life that Death becomes necessary- even appealing- you call this honorable? What I do not think you understand, Edric, is that some people die for worthy causes. Some people sacrifice themselves in honor, while others do so in corruption. Those who sacrifice themselves in corruption are deceived and trapped in a web of lies. There is no honor to be found there. No respect. No dignity. There is only sadness, reprehensible evil, and deceit.

read about the jonestown massacre here: http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial4/jonestown/2.htm

[Edric O]

You do know that millions, probably more, Christians disagree with you on this?

Yes, and other millions agree with me.

You actually see the truth in the fallacies of the Bible, but you set it aside with a neat name "allegory." Anything you find to be true, is not an allegory. Jesus' miracles are mosty likely an allegory, if not totally a joke, Jesus' existence could be an allegory itself! If not a total joke...

I don't draw arbitrary borders. The allegories are those passages that describe events far too complex for the understanding of primitive humans. Jesus's life and miracles are most certainly NOT in that category, because they happened in the midst of a great number of people. The Bible describes what they saw, and what Jesus told them.

It also served many KKK members to justify themselves in the faces of many black people...It's all a matter of interpretation. You can say it was made to help people, and I can say it was actually made to put white men on top of women and other races, but who's wrong? They both are existant in history?

There is a difference between interpreting things differently and using them as an excuse. If I interpret you post to say that you are an alien from the planet Zorg who has come to paint the moon blue with red dots, then you can't call THAT an "interpretation". It can only be called an excuse for me to harass you. In the same way, the KKK's "interpretation" is completely nonsensical and it is in fact only an excuse to harass black people.

Oh while you're at it, tell us what he eats for breakfast!

TIME ONLY EXISTS WITHIN OUR UNIVERSE. Ask any physicist! He will confirm this to you. The concept of "time" only applies to things INSIDE the universe!

Now, if God created the universe, He is obviously not a part of it! So He CANNOT be subject to the laws that only apply inside the universe. He MADE those laws!

Can't you understand this simple logic?

Why should he? When you can't prove it is the truth in the first place...

Ahhh... hypocrisy at its finest! You argue that the burden of proof is on the one who makes the affirmative claim? Here is a topic in which you argued the exact opposite, telling me I needed proof to disprove something:

http://www.dune2k.com/forum/index.php?board=2;action=display;threadid=6698;start=60

Anyways, nowhere does it say that you don't have to do anything just because he claimed something. It may say it in a book, or a philosophy class, but what value does it have in here? If you argue the otherwise, prove it. That goes for both sides. Why must one be lazy?

So now you argue innocent until proven guilty, while before you argued guilty until proven innocent... MAKE UP YOUR MIND.

[TMA_1]

guys! dont make me start another rant about quoting the hell out of a subject! good fugding gravy!lol

[sneezer3]

How do you even know what Jesus said, if he really existed? You can only believe the text of a millenia-old book.

But you see. the text Of "that millenia old book" Contains what Jesus said. If he truely sent his son to die on the cross for are sins. don't you think he'd provide a way for people to know about it?

EDRIC:

Acriku, I have the utmost respect for ANYONE willing to die for his/her beliefs

I just dont understand this. Since you are from Romania, you probably never heard of the Jonestown Massacre where more than 900 people "died for their beliefs". These people had no honor. They had no wisdom. They were brainwashed. They had no value for life. How can you respect that? When someone has so little value for life that Death becomes necessary- even appealing- you call this honorable? What I do not think you understand, Edric, is that some people die for worthy causes. Some people sacrifice themselves in honor, while others do so in corruption. Those who sacrifice themselves in corruption are deceived and trapped in a web of lies. There is no honor to be found there. No respect. No dignity. There is only sadness, reprehensible evil, and deceit.

I din't notice he said that. But i would agree with you here. it depends on the cause and belifs there dieing for.

It's strange that A LOT of what the Bible "says" what happened, is nothing but hearsay. And yet people follow it without question. It's a damned good thing the author didn't put anything in it like examples of the killing of children and women *phew*...Oh sh*t they did...Well atleast no one follows by example...Oh sh*t they do...

I Chellenge you to show me ONE PLACE where Jesus killed Children or Woman. Or a Child or a Women. Show me one place where somebody killed there child or wife or a women <or where somebody killed as an example plurel more then one> as an example.

and btw. the auther is God. although not directly he devinely inspired diffrant people to write it over time so that history and Gods death would survive. Otherwise Why would he send his son to die if he couldn't even provide a way for anybody to know about it?

[Acriku]

Jesus's life and miracles are most certainly NOT in that category, because they happened in the midst of a great number of people. The Bible describes what they saw, and what Jesus told them.

The Bible says so! Oh ok let's all believe what the great book says! Hearsay, that's all it is. Any author can write a book and say this about so-and-so and say another so-and-so saw it, and it helps many people. I am right now questioning the credibility of the Bible!

There is a difference between interpreting things differently and using them as an excuse. If I interpret you post to say that you are an alien from the planet Zorg who has come to paint the moon blue with red dots, then you can't call THAT an "interpretation". It can only be called an excuse for me to harass you. In the same way, the KKK's "interpretation" is completely nonsensical and it is in fact only an excuse to harass black people.

People use the Bible to show as an excuse what they can't do, so people who use it to what they can do, you call it nonsensical?

TIME ONLY EXISTS WITHIN OUR UNIVERSE. Ask any physicist! He will confirm this to you. The concept of "time" only applies to things INSIDE the universe!

Now, if God created the universe, He is obviously not a part of it! So He CANNOT be subject to the laws that only apply inside the universe. He MADE those laws!

Can't you understand this simple logic?

I want to understand this more, so what you are saying is that to every physicist there is more outside the universe? Every physicist has such knowledge about the universe that they know that there is an "outside"? PLease do tell.

Ahhh... hypocrisy at its finest! You argue that the burden of proof is on the one who makes the affirmative claim? Here is a topic in which you argued the exact opposite, telling me I needed proof to disprove something:

No, not at all, I was just emphasizing the point that you ask other people to disprove something that you can't even prove yourself. That's all I meant.

And let me tell you this, it is not hypocritical for someone to tell their views to someone else, then a long time after that tell the person something else. It is a change of views! It is a change of the mind! The view is changed, not hypocritical.

[emprworm]

ACRIKU:

Here's one: One day big guy God came to good guy Noah and gave him special powers to build an ark unimaginably huge and unrealistic, and infinite food, and called the animals of the forest and land to fly away to this magical ark...You get the story.

a strange story indeed. yea, I'd call that a fairy tale. Its not in the Bible, though.

EDRIC

TIME ONLY EXISTS WITHIN OUR UNIVERSE. Ask any physicist! He will confirm this to you. The concept of "time" only applies to things INSIDE the universe!

Well of course! Surely Acriku isn't postulating that there is something OUTSIDE our universe is he?

Time = measurement of change.

no change, no time. Period.

Universe = All that is natural

Natural = that which is according to universe

Supernatural = that which is according to beyond the natural (which is the universe)

Something outside our universe by DEFINITION is supernatural to our universe.

If Acriku is arguing for anything that is beyond the universe, he is tossing aside his agnostic position and now is arguing for the supernatural.

Aruging for the supernatural is not an agnostic position.

I dont think he would do that....or would he?

[Edric O]

I want to understand this more, so what you are saying is that to every physicist there is more outside the universe? Every physicist has such knowledge about the universe that they know that there is an "outside"? PLease do tell.

No physicist denies the possibility that there is something outside the universe (other universes, for example). After all, by definition, we can't possibly know anything about what does or doesn't exist "outside". But one thing we DO know is that none of our laws apply there. There is no time outside the universe. There is also no space, energy or matter as we know them.

[Acriku]

Empr you are using two different definitions of supernatural. It's a logical fallacy. I might think there are other universes out there, something supernatural, but that does not suggest I believe in the supernature of a higher being. So it would not go against my position.

Edric, they can't deny the possibility of many things, but that doesn't mean anything.

[emprworm]

No physicist denies the possibility that there is something outside the universe

the interesting thing is that Peter Atkins, professor at Oxford and internationally recognized atheist debated Christian Philosopher William Lane Craig in a televised and internet broadcast on the existence of God.

Atkins was demolished by Craig. In the debate Atkins actually makes an argument that universii "pop" into existence like popcorn- virtually an infinite amount of them and that we are but just one universe in an endless sea of universii always popping into existence from nothing.

ROFL

Of course, Craig ate him up and spit him out.

Any physicist that postulates parrallel universes is postulating a supernatural position. This position, like the sub-continent of India, requires immense faith. The amount of evidence that we are but one universe of an infinite pop-corn sea of universii is ZERO. To believe in such requires more faith than 1 billion religious zealots. There is far more evidence of a Creator than such a wild theory. Yet here was this PhD Oxford Scientist actually arguing a supernatural faith with less evidence than theism as if it is even plausible.

Atheists that argue for a multiverse are no different than a Buddhist monk preaching a sermon- faith, faith, faith.

I have seen the video of this debate, it is extraordinary to watch.

GO HERE FOR INFO ON IT(YOU CAN EVEN ORDER THE VIDEO OR WATCH IT ONLINE WITH REALVIDEO FOR FREE!!)

http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/craig-atkins.html

BEFORE YOU WATCH THE VIDEO MAKE SURE YOU CLICK ON "PETER ATKINS" AND LOOK AT HIS CREDENTIALS AS A SCIENTIST.

Note the Christian guy demolished him. he he . 8)

[Edric O]

How is the existence of another universe any different from the existence of God, Acriku? Why do you believe in one and not the other?

[Acriku]

Empr what the hell is wrong with you. All an atheist does is lack a belief IN GOD. He can have faith in whatever the hell else he wants, that does not mean a crock of sh*t about anything. Is that really hard to understand?

[emprworm]

Acriku, so long as that atheist admits he has faith no different than any religious person, I have no problem.

So if you admit your faith, then we are fine.

[emprworm]

Ok, I want everyone to go watch the video. Its free with real player.

http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/craig-atkins.html

BEFORE YOU WATCH THE VIDEO MAKE SURE YOU CLICK ON "PETER ATKINS" AND LOOK AT HIS CREDENTIALS AS A SCIENTIST.

[Edric O]

Empr what the hell is wrong with you. All an atheist does is lack a belief IN GOD. He can have faith in whatever the hell else he wants, that does not mean a crock of sh*t about anything. Is that really hard to understand?

Oh, I understand your position perfectly. Now can you please explain to us how can you believe in the supernatural (other universes) and yet disprove the existence of God because it's unproved and "unlikely"? ::)

[Acriku]

Who said I believe in other universes? It was a hypothetical situation, obvious in the choice of words, "I might think". I have no reason to believe there are other universes, I have no reason also to believe there aren't other universes. I'm neutral on the subject, so don't put words in my mouth when it's obvious they came straight from your arse.

[SurlyPIG]

I follow logical reasoning and draw conclusions on how to take different parts of the Bible. You might disagree with my logic, but you have no right to impose your interpretation on me. You take one particulary extreme and unscientific interpretation and use it to disprove the Bible, while ignoring all the other reasonable interpretations out there. (because they wouldn't support your argument)

Why shouldn't I? That is what you have always done. In the Mother Theresa thread you compared all Atheists to Stalin. There are many, many, MANY tall tales in the bible supposed to be true that just cannot and would not happen.

They are both false, if that's what you are saying. They are both nonsensical.

Very well, mr. scientist. Prove it.

Very well. Using the scientific method of trying to disprove your hypothesis, which is best for maximum scientific accuraccy, I will try and disprove the idea that there is no god. In other words, I'm trying to prove there is a god.

Here is the proof that God exists:

1)

Hey wait a minute, there isn't any. It's a matter of faith. You can't see him, hear him, feel him, you can't see his actions, you can't be sure he actually inspired the people who wrote the bible, you can't know if they were just insane. You can't prove there was a Jesus, you can't prove he performed anything supernatural.

So, using the logic "innocent until proven guilty" there is no evidence to neither believe in your perception of a God, therefore he does not exist. But bravo to the ones who created this idea; they masterfully created a God that could neither be proven nor disproven.

Do you not understand the simple fact that there is no such thing as "time" outside the universe? TIME only exists within our universe! You ask what did God do before the universe? There is no "before"!!

Forgive me, but I was not aware you had been outside the universe. Maybe I'll leave the universe on my next vacation and see for myself. C'mon, have you even SEEN where the universe ends? Do you no its boundaries? We know almost nothing about other galaxies, let alone the universe. Right now all we have is a bunch of wild, unproven theories.

Christian one moment, but scientist the next.

I can be both. Too bad you don't understand that.

Not if you are consistent.

It also serves to motivate millions of people to be generous, to help those in need, to create countless charity organization, to bring comfort to the suffering...

Yeah for CHRISTIANS ONLY. Rare is it that any religous organization will do those things for any non-Christian without trying to convert them. In fact, I genuinely can't name one.

Show me where does the Bible encourage anyone to have lots of kids.

Show me where does the Bible say anything about contraceptions.

I said the CHURCH. The Pope says it himself. And, well, if you actually don't know organized Church's position on contraception, you might want to get a catscan.

And please explain to me how exactly were the founders of Christianity plotting world domination while being chased by Roman legionnaires. ::)

It's not a communist takeover kind of world domination. The point was to create something bigger than yourself. And boy oh boy, was it ever successful.

Again you are showing your hypocrisy. You accuse me of religious hate, yet you have a raging atheist hate against all religions. You accuse us of every crime you can possibly think of, while you hold a dogmatic hate of religion. You seem ready to start an atheist Jihad.

Rage? Are you serious? Your own bias has made you completely blind. Name ONE incident in this thread in which I was "raging". I gave my honest analysis of certain things, told my opinions straight-up. Dogmatic hate? LOL! Obviously you can't handle what I have to say. I have hate? LOL. I've been completely reasonable. You're the one going around calling everyone who doesn't agree with you a "pathetic piece of worthless human filth"

I didn't flame you because you are an atheist. I flamed you because you have no respect for heroes and martyrs who had the courage to die for what they believed in.

What about the Muslim terrorists that blow themselves up on SCHOOLBUSES full of children? What do you call them? HEROES? HONOURBLE? Bah, that's a disgrace. The bus driver that's killed struggling to prevent the terrorist from getting on the bus - THAT's noble. THAT'S respectable. Know why? Because he died to save others - a just cause. Whether or not the action is honourable is completely dependant on what the action was trying to do. Are you *ACTUALLY* saying that you have respect for those who would blow-up roomfulls of women and children? Ludacris. Just ludacris.

In a typical intolerant fashion, you have prejudged me.

In response to you prejudging a great number of people you have never met (the early Christians), yes.

Why? You've never met me. Neither of us have met them. We don't even know if they existed!

Any non-Christian? Hardly! I respect members of other world religions. I respect all Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus...

But I have no respect for atheism.

Hilarious. Genuinely hilarious. I think I'll just keep this in the clipboard...

I will never defend my beliefs by doing something which goes AGAINST those very beliefs! But that doesn't matter to you, does it? You don't judge Christianity by the words of the Bible, or by the works of all the good Christians who brought love and compassion to this world. You pick the worst you can possibly find, and judge us all by THEM!

LOL. Where have I compared you to the worst of Christians? And yes - you DO violate your own beliefs in order to defend them. Here you are preaching Christianity, the religion of peace and love, while you're saying this:

Well, it seems there IS after all someone here who I can never have any respect for. Namely you. You are a pathetic piece of worthless human filth. You place no value on self-sacrifice and martyrdom, therefore I place no value on you.

How loving and peaceful and Christian of you to say such a thing.

God. Life. Humanity. In that order. I serve God, all Life and Humanity in particular. My life has value only in the contribution I bring to those three things. If either of them requires me to die, I will.

Here's an actual scenario for you: a few years ago, Columbine High School in Littleton, Colorado was held up by two lunatical students armed with pipe bombs and shotguns. During this incident, in which 13 were killed, one of the boys pointed a gun at a girl and asked "Do you believe in God?" Knowing full well what would happen, she answered "Yes" and the boy killed her.

The actions of the boy were absolutely deplorable. I'd like to make it clear that I am not diminishing that fact by asking what I am about to ask.

What would you have done if you were that girl? Would you make your friends friendless, your parents childless, and your brothers brotherless by answering yes to one insignificant crazy boy, and die for no reason? You're not saving anyone. Would you let him kill you?

Two words:

Nema Fakei

He is a strong atheist and one of my best friends. If all atheists were like him, I would give atheism the same respect I give to any world religion. It is most unfortunate that the majority are as hateful and hypocritical as yourself...

I knew copying this would come in handy...

Any non-Christian? Hardly! I respect members of other world religions. I respect all Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus...

But I have no respect for atheism.

So, are you saying you have no respect whatsoever for one of your best friends, Nema Fakei?

I wonder if he respects suicide bombers that blow up malls and buses and schools. After all anyone who doesn't respect them for dying for their cause is a worthless pile of...what did you call it again?

It is impossible for someone to be completely devoted to their religion and still be tolerant and respectful of other religions. It's not logically possible. You can't be ready to die for your God then simply tolerate the next God (or lack thereof) that the next random guy believes in. Clearly there can only be one god, one religion. Thousands of years of "Holy wars" have proven that.

[sneezer3]

we'r still waiting for an example.

So, are you saying you have no respect whatsoever for one of your best friends, Nema Fakei?

No he said he has no Repsect for atheism. You can like someone but not like what they belive. Or what that they do. Example Someone likes there girlfreind. but hates they have another boyfreind and hates him yet does not hate the girl.

Here's an actual scenario for you: a few years ago, Columbine High School in Littleton, Colorado was held up by two lunatical students armed with pipe bombs and shotguns. During this incident, in which 13 were killed, one of the boys pointed a gun at a girl and asked "Do you believe in God?" Knowing full well what would happen, she answered "Yes" and the boy killed her.

The actions of the boy were absolutely deplorable. I'd like to make it clear that I am not diminishing that fact by asking what I am about to ask.

What would you have done if you were that girl? Would you make your friends friendless, your parents childless, and your brothers brotherless by answering yes to one insignificant crazy boy, and die for no reason? You're not saving anyone. Would you let him kill you?

I know this was kinda ment for Edric but heres what i would do. I have heard of this story myself.

I'd say "Could you repeat that" as i stuck my finger in my ear Moveing it around inside with a slightly nastifyd look on my face. Then as they started to. i'd turn my head around with my finger Bending back my ear slightly. and ready to move. then as i say "Yes" Move my hand towards there gun as fast a posabble. then Grab it and go down with a Struggle. If i got there gun i'd walk back tell them not to move. if they did i'd shoot him.

But if none of that was possable. <Like him being 5 feet away with his finger on the trigger or that being a girl not think as stragisticly not being built up in stregeth him being older and knowing kung fu etc etc etc.> Then i'd try my very absulute hardest to say "Yes" Why?

Galations 6:7

Be not deceived: God is not mocked: For whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also Reap."

1 Peter 3:14

But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;

1 Peter 4:16

Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

Philippians 1:21

For me to live in Christ Die is Gain

2 Timothy 3:12

Yea and all that will live godly in Christ shall suffer persecution<Note there are many forums of it. It don't mean ever Christan that lives Godly will be in a prision cell about it get hanged>

I mean. Jesus gave his life for you. The lest you could do is not deny him.

And most of while why wouldn't I?

Matthew 10:33

But whosoever shall deny me before men him will i also deny before my father which is in heaven

Although from an unsaved point of view that might not make much since. The Christans of before would give there life for Christ but the lazy sacared half to death luke-warm ones of today won't.

[Acriku]

Learn how to spell what you are talking about, it makes some question if you understand what you are talking about. I'm not even going to try to understand your example. Not like what they believe? The whole "atheism" deal is a lack of belief! They don't "believe" that there is no god, they simply lack a belief in god(s).

What the hell was that? A story of what you would've done? Somehow I don't think you would have time to think of a scenario of getting out while your pissing your pants and hoping not to get shot. And I read in a different forum that the girl didn't say anything, that the media put in the fact that she had said "yes" a couple weeks after the incident, for ratings or whatever the motive was. Question everything. Especially the media.

[SurlyPIG]

I wouldn't be surprised if that were true. The whole thing was such a media circus anyway, it was ridiculous. However, the maniacs were showing moderate discretion to who they did and didn't kill. IE they'd kill the jock, leave the goth, kill the black guy, leave the white girl, etc.

[sneezer3]

Not like what they believe? The whole "atheism" deal is a lack of belief! They don't "believe" that there is no god, they simply lack a belief in god(s).

What the hell was that? A story of what you would've done? Somehow I don't think you would have time to think of a scenario of getting out

Well. it was for the example. you get the picture! you could like the person but not the lack of belief. No examples really even needed.

Yeah well. your right but i gave you one've the quickest ways out besides saying Direcly "No". But if it really came down to it i'd say "Yes"

I wouldn't be surprised if that were true. The whole thing was such a media circus anyway, it was ridiculous. However, the maniacs were showing moderate discretion to who they did and didn't kill. IE they'd kill the jock, leave the goth, kill the black guy, leave the white girl, etc.

Well. if you heard it and my mom did then it likely is. Sad that a that a thing like that could happen in the world we live in today. :(