Scytale

[SiliconWarrior]

I'm re-reading Dune Messiah for kicks and few Q's popped up.

Was Scytale the Bene Tielax's attempt at a Kwisatz Haderach, or in the Teilaxu culture can Face Dancers get "promoted" to Master?

[Inhuien]

Hi SW. Your quite right that a character named Scytale is in both MoD and the last two books that FH wrote, However I'm unaware of any direct link made by Herbert that these two characters are indeed the same person or a reincarnation. In MoD Scytale is presented to the reader as a Facedancer and the later Scytale as a Master. I don't believe that a Facedancer can be promoted as such purely because of the fact that FD's are creations of the Masters and as such would not be able to partake in Teilaxu religious rites.

[Anathema]

Face dancers are considered "things" in the Tleilaxu society. Scytale was a face dancer. The Tleilaxu attempt for a Kwisatz Haderach was...I forgot his name :-[

[Mahdi]

It is the same Scytale, evidenced from thecomment that he had met Paul Maud'dib and was present at the birth ofLeto II. So, it looks like Face Dancers can be promoted tomasters,sjtu a simpel re-organization of there genetic code.

as for him being there Kwisatz Haderach, no. The Tlielaxu had already once produced a Kwisatz Haderach, and they sure didn't want tomake another one.

[Inhuien]

evidenced from thecomment that he had met Paul Maud'dib and was present at the birth ofLeto II

Hi Mahdi can you remind me what book that's in please?

[Mahdi]

Heretics.

[Inhuien]

thanx:)

[Caid Ivik]

Tleilaxu Kwisatz Haderach? That's nonsense.

[AlteaDeo]

well, they tried, they never said it was succesful ;)

[Mahdi]

Read the discussion between the conspirators in Messiah. Scytale admits the Tleilaxu created a KwisatzHaderach. In fact,thats how they knew how to destroy Paul, because they had already destroyed there own Kwisatz Haderach.

[Anathema]

Yes. The Tleilaxu KH (Beilas was his name I believe) commited suicide because he became the oposite of his own being.

[exatreide]

i thought that was the guilds one?

[Anathema]

No. The Guild purchased a ghola, namely Duncan Idaho, or Hayt.

[AlteaDeo]

Read the discussion between the conspirators in Messiah. Scytale admits the Tleilaxu created a KwisatzHaderach. In fact,thats how they knew how to destroy Paul, because they had already destroyed there own Kwisatz Haderach.

woups, right ;)

[exatreide]

in dune messigh they talked about the guild KH that killed himself at the beging conference....

[Anathema]

He's not from the Guild. Anyway, the meant the Idaho ghola, not the KH.

[Caid Ivik]

After Muad'Dib was Bene Gesserit trying to prevent new Kwisatz Haderach from birth. How it was with the Tleilax? Were they trying to make new or banished the project?

[Anathema]

I'm not sure what they did immediately afterwards. I do remember that in heretics...wait, I'll hide this.

[hide]the tleilaxu master (forgot his name) had a conversation with Odrade about the KH. He said something like "there is no more need for a person who can be at multiple places at one time" wich is the meaning of KH.[/hide]

[Caid Ivik]

[hide]So they have find something better? Or just Tleilaxu lords were trying to prevent such danger as KH was for the Empire and Bene Gesserit?[/hide]

[nemafakei]

I had thought that Scytale had always been a master, but

[hide] for one of his ghola-lifetimes, he was a face-dancer[/hide]

[Caid Ivik]

[hide]Ghola is perfectional copy. There is no possibility to change kind of gholed being.[/hide]

[Mahdi]

Yes there is Caid. It's done several times in the novel. It happens to Duncan Idaho alot. Hayt had no eyes. Heritics and Chapterhouse had him evolved tot he current human abilities.

[Anathema]

But face dancers are considered things. Why would they turn one in a master?

[Caid Ivik]

Yes there is Caid. It's done several times in the novel. It happens to Duncan Idaho alot. Hayt had no eyes. Heritics and Chapterhouse had him evolved tot he current human abilities.

No eyes, that's normal deviation, little failure in genes. But fully changing the natural species? With same soul?