Truth of Mother Teresa

[Acriku]

Well that was an allusion to the bible, but that's ok ;)

[SurlyPIG]

Let me spell it out a bit more...

You have an organization that only accepts celebate men. Now, who would this attract? Straight men? Some I'm sure. But who wants to be completely abstenent for their entire life, never have kids, never marry, never have a family and die alone? Not many. I'll bet that a good chunk of the priesthood is comprised of gay men in denial of their homosexuality. As far as the abuse goes, well...think of it this way; when you eat only rice and water for a long time you get so freakin' tired of it that you'd do anything for something exciting. Something with zest. You'd steal it. From, say, a child? Better yet, a child that trusts you and you know won't tell anyone.

That's why altarboys are most often the victims of such abuse.

Not only is it silly to expect a lifetime of abstanence, but the system is set up in such a way that abuse takes place too easily.

Do you honestly think, when the catholic church finds out one of its priests is raping kids, that they'll come out in public, kick him out of the priesthood and apologise to the victims? No way. They play the cover-up game. Sexual harassment cases relfect badly on the church. And they can't kick out everyone who's done such a thing because their numbers, though not a majority, are quite great and the priesthood always has trouble recruiting. Plus, seeing how many of them there are would discourage people from both joining and trusting the priesthood. And that's bad for the religion because it means it won't grow.

It isn't "just a few sick individuals". It's a widespread problem, and only in the last decade have we begun to see the tip of the iceberg.

[Edric O]

Not only is it silly to expect a lifetime of abstanence [...]

Silly? That is exactly what I expect from myself, and I have no intention of becoming a priest.

But who wants to be completely abstenent for their entire life, never have kids, never marry, never have a family and die alone?

A man of great faith and moral standing. You terribly underestimate the power of faith, my friend!

Do you honestly think, when the catholic church finds out one of its priests is raping kids, that they'll come out in public, kick him out of the priesthood and apologise to the victims?

No. They will kick him out quietly and make sure he never preaches again.

It isn't "just a few sick individuals". It's a widespread problem, and only in the last decade have we begun to see the tip of the iceberg.

And I suppose you have PROOF of this outrageous claim?

[SurlyPIG]

Few people have the kind of faith and discipline it'd take for a lifetime.

But you said yourself they'd keep it quiet. That is true. The kicking him out part is not. They have enough trouble getting priests as it is. They certainly wouldn't kick him out. And they wouldn't obey the law and bring the case to the police (it is required by law in many places to report suspected or confirmed cases of abuse).

As to the last question, it's obvious when you look at the stats. A century ago, you NEVER heard of anything like this because it was swept under the rug. Only now, as laws start to emerge to protect the victims, are people coming forward. Percentage-wise, I'm not sure the number of priests who have been/not been accused of, tried of, or convicted of sexual offenses, and more importantly, how many cases never leave the cathedral. I wouldn't be able to tell you. But it's a fact that the number of these kinds of cases coming forward is going up, and the number of priests, and the number of people wanting to become priests, is going down. Draw your own conclusion.

[Edric O]

Few people have the kind of faith and discipline it'd take for a lifetime.

We shall see...

But you said yourself they'd keep it quiet. That is true. The kicking him out part is not. They have enough trouble getting priests as it is. They certainly wouldn't kick him out.

They'd have a psycho on their hands. If he raped someone, there's no telling what this madman will do next. OF COURSE they'll get rid of him! No priest is better than a perverted priest.

A century ago, you NEVER heard of anything like this because it was swept under the rug.

No, you never heard about it because it never happened.

But it's a fact that the number of these kinds of cases coming forward is going up, and the number of priests, and the number of people wanting to become priests, is going down. Draw your own conclusion.

The conclusion is obvious: We are going through a period of decadence and moral decay. Our society is more and more sinful and immoral.

[SurlyPIG]

They'd have a psycho on their hands. If he raped someone, there's no telling what this madman will do next. OF COURSE they'll get rid of him! No priest is better than a perverted priest.

I wholeheartedly agree with that last statement. You share that opinion with myself and anyone who's moral. Whether or not the priesthood does is not always clear. In some cases, they've been proved to have had knowledge about such activities occurring and doing nothing. In more extreme cases, they've come forward and expelled the priest.

A century ago, you NEVER heard of anything like this because it was swept under the rug.

No, you never heard about it because it never happened.

I partially agree. A century ago, life was hard and religion was a much bigger part of people's lives. Your faith kept you strong, as it did with priests, so such incidents were less prevalent. This is a small piece of the puzzle, though. You'll sometimes see 60-year-old men come forward to say that they were sexually abused by a priest as a child. And there's no reason not to believe them. I mean, why draw such shame and humiliation to themselves over something that happened so long ago, an act committed by someone who is likely to be dead.

The conclusion is obvious: We are going through a period of decadence and moral decay. Our society is more and more sinful and immoral.

That's a bit of a bizzare interpretation...I have no interest in becoming a priest or living a life of celebacy. Does that make me morally decadent? Does one turning away from their religion make them morally decadent? Shouldn't these "holy ones" still be immaculate? I mean, granted, you'll have your proportional chunk of freaks, but shouldn't the priesthood be seperate from the moral decay of the public, as you put it? My mother turned away from the Catholic Church because, in her words, of the hypocisy.

[Anathema]

No, you never heard about it because it never happened.

I'm sure it did happen that time, though maybe less. There was less of an information stream to the people by then.

[Caid Ivik]

Let me spell it out a bit more...

You have an organization that only accepts celebate men. Now, who would this attract? Straight men? Some I'm sure. But who wants to be completely abstenent for their entire life, never have kids, never marry, never have a family and die alone? Not many. I'll bet that a good chunk of the priesthood is comprised of gay men in denial of their homosexuality. As far as the abuse goes, well...think of it this way; when you eat only rice and water for a long time you get so freakin' tired of it that you'd do anything for something exciting. Something with zest. You'd steal it. From, say, a child? Better yet, a child that trusts you and you know won't tell anyone.

That's why altarboys are most often the victims of such abuse.

Not only is it silly to expect a lifetime of abstanence, but the system is set up in such a way that abuse takes place too easily.

Do you honestly think, when the catholic church finds out one of its priests is raping kids, that they'll come out in public, kick him out of the priesthood and apologise to the victims? No way. They play the cover-up game. Sexual harassment cases relfect badly on the church. And they can't kick out everyone who's done such a thing because their numbers, though not a majority, are quite great and the priesthood always has trouble recruiting. Plus, seeing how many of them there are would discourage people from both joining and trusting the priesthood. And that's bad for the religion because it means it won't grow.

It isn't "just a few sick individuals". It's a widespread problem, and only in the last decade have we begun to see the tip of the iceberg.

Celebrating men? Saint Mary has more fests than Jesus, so I don't know what you mean. Priests are usually men in every religion, patriarchate ruled for thousands of years. As man is natural leader, woman is a raiser of children, what has same importance. Today it isn't so straight, but male priests are tradition. Also there are still less women studying teology or philosophy.

Homosexuality is one of the problems of the sexualy opened, immoral society, which was being built by Freud, Kinsley and such. Church in core resisted, altough all its people were from that society. Some has fallen. But the homosexuality is a psychical deviance (believe me or not, but it isn't natural), which grows only when someone wants to be sexually active. And the priests (or better catholic priests) have a celibate, they sacrifice it.

[Anathema]

Homosexuality isn't part of the chain, but it has also been spotted with animals. So it's not just a human invention.

[Caid Ivik]

But everytime as deviance.

[Anathema]

But not mental. Otherwise animals can have mental deviations too. Homosexuality is by some believed to be geneticly determined.

[Edric O]

I wholeheartedly agree with that last statement. You share that opinion with myself and anyone who's moral. Whether or not the priesthood does is not always clear.

Are you suggesting that the Church is less moral than you or me? That is utterly insane.

This is a small piece of the puzzle, though. You'll sometimes see 60-year-old men come forward to say that they were sexually abused by a priest as a child.

What? I never heard of anything like that. Was there an actual case of this or are you just assuming things?

Does one turning away from their religion make them morally decadent?

Yes.

But this is more complex than it seems. I'm not talking about individual people. If one man decides to turn away from religion, chances are he will remain as moral as before.

What I'm talking about is our whole society turning away from religion.

Casual sex, pornography, violence in schools, drug abuse, rising crime rates... these are all symptoms of a society that is losing its moral values. So far, religion has proved to be the best way to uphold moral values. This is how it goes:

loss of religion => softening of moral values => loss of control over the definitions of "good" and "evil" => complete loss of moral values => porn, violence, rape, murder, etc. (a.k.a. the world we see today)

[Acriku]

You can't deny hormones. If you somehow do (through intense discipline) you will remain affected negatively. So instead of pornography, let's have mass orgies! ::)

[Edric O]

You can't deny hormones.

No? Watch me!

If you somehow do (through intense discipline) you will remain affected negatively.

NOTHING takes precedence over morality. I could not live with myself if I didn't impose a strict discipline on my instincts.

Unlike you, I choose not to sink to the level of a mindless animal looking for mates.

[Acriku]

Actually I choose to be by myself, only with select friends, no girlfriends since 6th grade, and I'm quite happy. But hormones must not be surpressed, this is basic psychology. I love women, but I don't go out and holler to girls "Hey baby what's shaking?" You are lying to yourself if you have never had a thought about sexual things. Even though you don't act on them, you satisfy yourself by thinking about it, even if it is a second. Rudimentary life facts.

[Edric O]

Thoughts are natural and there's nothing you can do to control them. I never said there's anything wrong with thinking about sex. The point is not to ACT on those thoughts.

[Acriku]

Therefore, you do not deny your hormones! That's what I've been trying to say.

[Edric O]

Then I misunderstood you. :)

[Caid Ivik]

So, there are thousands, or better, MILLIONS of people who deny their hormones! Mother Teresa including. I myself, I never was seduced or trying to seduce. That's called morale. Morale is a barrier to these animal hormone "engine", making us over these mindless creatures. If you must push your mind to surpress it, moralty in you is lacking. It must be one of your senses. It must become usual to be really moral. Toleration of sinful things leads only to a sin.

[Edric O]

Well said, Caid. You are absolutely right.

[Acriku]

Morality is what YOU think is right, or what the overall consensus thinks is right and then impressioned onto you. It is not a defined thing. It has no exact meaning. It might be moral to one to kill a man only when he turns towards you, instead of shooting him in the back, and to another it might not be moral to shoot the person at all. The quest for morality comes to you, or you make it yourself, which will it be?

[Edric O]

So what are you saying? That anything is just as moral? Including killing??

[Acriku]

Anything can be moral, it is up to the person to decide, or the society to impress it on you.

[Edric O]

Alright. Let's say person X decides it's moral to kill you. Is that okay then? ::)

[Acriku]

Morality justifies what is ok 'to you'. Not to anybody else. What is moral to one may be immoral to me. If someone kills me, I won't be here to say anything about it, but my family will surely think of the person's actions being immoral. Perhaps even the person.