Spew All About Politics Here

[emprworm]

yes theory only I believe. Nema i think drastically underestimates that humans are greedy apart from government and that the more larger the government, the larger the loopholes. Nema relies so much on the "spirit of the law" yet this concept, as noble as it is, allows for massive corruption and manipulation. Who will the councils be made up of? Nema says "random" yet SOMEONE controls the "randomizing" machine. Such a position would seem to be the most powerful in Nema's government and would be a supreme target of corruption. Nema thinks that all these endless councils, once given power, will be free from corruption. I postulate they will be like every other politician in history- they will express their own internal greed throuh societal laws and attempt to corrupt the system which as Nema defined it, would be exceedingly vulnerable to corruption.

[emprworm]

also, think with me a bit. Has anyone seen Star Wars Episode I? Theres a scene in there I love- its the scene of the senate at Corsicant. You see what must be tens of thousands of representatives and comittees all gathered in a gargantuan hall bickering and disputing. While this system in its endless councils seems fair, we see how a few people within the system are able to coerce others and conspire which leads to "powerful councils" within the "general councils" which leads to one man in the powerful councils who has utter power- yet it is 'unofficial power'. It is a marvelous example of how Nemas council based system can get unbelievably wicked.

[Anathema]

That kind of thing happens in any political system, to some degree.

[Dunenewt]

Well the problem is it relies on everyone joining so you have aenough total wealth to begin with. However, most rch people would not agree to join it as they enjoy being lazy and would not want to give any money away. This leaves you with mainly poor people and therefore your net amount of money (and GDP) is lower.

[nemafakei]

One person, who will be replaced at regualr intervals (which is so much worse than concentrating all that power on Bush). And, of course, the councils are supposed ot react to such things, and restructure themselves accordingly.

"SOMEONE controls the "randomizing" machine"

?!

The work of researching the data is divided between many, some of which being councils. The machine itself is run only by technicians, checked by a few people, no doubt, but it is not controlled by any one.

[Anathema]

Random? You mean council members are chosen through a lottery system?

[emprworm]

yea thats what he proposes. of course the lottery system (which is of supreme power if controlled) would itself be subjugated by a few humans, those humans of whom will have human natures and subject to immense briberies, conspiracies, etc and temptations to corruptions. (take the machines programmer for example, who has to do monthly maintenance, etc).

in networking there is a concept called SINGLE POINT OF FAILURE

it is the worst thing that can possibly exist in a network.

Nemas government, unfortunately has a SINGLE POINT OF FAILURE and that is the "machine" that chooses government officials.

such a government is DESTINED to turn wicked. it is completely inevitable.

[nemafakei]

"lottery system (which is of supreme power if controlled) would itself be subjugated by a few humans"

What on earth makes you think thy will succeed? This machine will be subject to close scrutiny from all sides - as it is indeed the most important piece of the system.

[Acriku]

Is it a lottery of the population, or selected willing leaders?

[emprworm]

it is a single point of failure, Nema. That is the worst thing you can have in a government. You would put all those billions of people - innocent people of your society at the mercy of this single point of failure? And when those who control the machine find a way to corrupt the process, all your people suffer, and you as the architect of the system will be responsible.

"This machine will be subject to close scrutiny from all sides - as it is indeed the most important piece of the system"

that statement is hogwash and you know it.

You are going to give the password to that machine to just anyone? Only a few people will know the password. Only a few people will have access to its programming. Or are you just going to let anyone hack their way in?

No the truth is that only a very tiny amount of people will have the passwords to the machine. Once those who controll the passwords are bribed enough or have enough temptation to 'randomize' the machine to select the right people so that the majority of the necessary councils have the same ideologies, you have no recourse whatsoever. the people are helpless and your government grows wicked as evil drapes over your land in a shroud of hellish darkness.

Because there will be only a very small inner circle who control the machine, your government is highly suseptible to massive corruption. And THAT , my dear Nema, is your single point of failure. THAT is risking all the innocent people of your society upon one tiny point the size of the head of a pin.

[Anathema]

I think it would work if officials would only remain in office for a few months, and when there are many people included in the lottery.

[nemafakei]

Both of these statements I have already noted as true, Earthnuker.

"it is a single point of failure, Nema"

It is a single weakness that will not necessarily fail if well-defended. And when we class this as 'one machine, I sincerely doubt that anyone will be given enogh power to change everything.

"Once those who controll the passwords are bribed enough or have enough temptation "

Bribery is already VERY difficult in this system, for reasons I have already outlined.

"that statement is hogwash and you know it."

It most certainly is not! As the most important single piece of the system, it must be regularly checked. There will be councils to decide how the machine is to operate, and how it is to be recoded. All decisions can be divided - it requires as much defence as the Bank of England - but, (hopefully) on a world scale.

[Edric O]

Who said anything about there being only ONE machine? I'd say we should use one for every council, or even one for every council member (it doesn't have to be stronger than an ordinary computer). This would mean an IMMENSE number of machines... Getting access to all of them is impossible, especially since different people have the codes for each machine, and those people (and the codes) constantly change.

Speaking of a single point of failure, what do you think the US President is?

[emprworm]

what the? Many machines? Many councils? JUst how many councils are talking about here, anyway? How many total politicians in your system? one tousand? Ten thousand? 1 Million councils? You have a council for everything? Can you imagine the immense overhead, burden and uselessness your system creates? Along with a quintillion loopholes with endless councils. I really want an idea how many councils there are. I want one of you to tell me just how many councils there will be, and what councils have more power than what.

Example: You have one council for every local community. Then who decides global policy? Do all ten thousand councils come together for a behemoth massive bickering session to decide global issues? How is global law implemented in a society run by countless local councils? Are there ANY GLOBAL politicians at all? If so, then WHAT MACHINE decides the GLOBAL POLITICIANS ? Global politicians have more authority than the local ones. If you say they dont then how in the world could this be? What kind of ROLE does a global politician serve if his power is equal to a local community politician? Your governments have far more questions than answers. All you have is a dreamy ideal, yet no practical definitions to support it.

I want some clarification on councils- how they operate, how global issues are defined and implemented, whether or not global politicians exist, and how many machines could be used to 'vote' people into office. Exactly what are these 'many machines' doing anyway?

[Edric O]

[sarcasm]

Maybe you're right. It's completely inefficient to have so many people deciding things... Oh, I know, let's give all the power to a single man! There, no more bickering and pointless arguing. ::) You just do as your fuhrer commands. ::)

[/sarcasm]

[Acriku]

Just as sarcasm doesn't amount to anything other than the misdirected confusion of the whole picture, I think too many people would very well be too much. Who is going to supervise them all to make sure they do not become corrupted or to manipulate the government for their own personal interest? Etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. Who will pay all these people for doing this? How will one man raise his voice among all these other people, possibly never to be heard? Please answer. And not theoretically, as we know how that turns out sometimes.

[emprworm]

you havent explained how the system works, and i want to know how it works. there comes a point where you go from a representative democracy to overkill.

i do not support a dictator running anything, yet every time i have a question, you answer it by creating another "council". Well just what the heck kind of answer is that?

is that your solution for everything? Just make another government funded council. Take more money from the working people and toss in some more beauracracy. Sheesh. Talk about getting nothing done.

But i think its time Nema defines "council". What is it composed of. How is global law created/implemented? Do global politicians exist at all or is the entire government run by councils that have localized communal jurisdiction?

[emprworm]

How does power flow in this council system? What is the highest power in the land? Is there a council that is "above" the local council? As in a council that governs all councils in the Pacific Region. And then a supreme council over all regional councils? Where is the TOP of the power chain and how are THOSE PEOPLE "elected" into office.

[Edric O]

How many councils will there be? I don't know. That needs to be decided according to the situation of the country in which Consiliary Dynamism is implemented. There is no magic number that fits anytime, anywhere. As the situation changes, so does the number of councils (within certain limits, of course, which will depend on the total population of the country).

It's flexible. That's where the Dynamism comes from.

How many politicians? NONE. Council members will be ordinary people, well-abled in the field that their specific council regulates.

Machines don't do anything other than randomly selecting council members from a pool of available candidates.

You do not seem to understand that there is no heirarchy among councils. There are no "global" councils. When a global issue needs to be decided, local councils come together and decide on it.

In a situation of crisis, or in case a very important decision needs to be made (such as declaring war), a nation-wide poll is called. Every adult in the country votes on the issue, through an electronic voting system that avoids all the unnecessary expenses of present-day elections.

[Edric O]

How does power flow in this council system? What is the highest power in the land? Is there a council that is "above" the local council? As in a council that governs all councils in the Pacific Region. And then a supreme council over all regional councils? Where is the TOP of the power chain and how are THOSE PEOPLE "elected" into office.

There is no heirarchy!

The system works like a web, not a pyramid. There is no "top". All are on the same level.

[emprworm]

There is no heirarchy!

The system works like a web, not a pyramid. There is no "top". All are on the same level.

ROFL!

And you really think this works? You are one step away from anarchy. The problem with you and Nema is that you are all general, nothing is specific with you two. Problem is that a human being (homosapien) lives in the SPECIFIC realm, not the general realm. I dont "generally" go to work, I SPECIFICALLY go to work. Until you get your specifics worked out, your government is one big pile of inpractical nonsense.

time to expose your proposal of a 'web system'

Every little village is a government unto itself in your system, save for the occasional get together of all the councils- which is basically no different then seperate countries getting together in a UN bickering match. Since there are more than a million towns in the world, we have literally a million+ councils.

So in the town of "Tiny"- a hypothetical remote mountain village in the outskirts of Mongolia, the council for that town "rules" that black people are not welcome there. You see, the people have lived there for so long, they just dont like other blacks and the local council agreed to this. Black people must leave.

This is entirely feasible.

Now, since there exists no council greater than the council of Tiny, there is no recourse those people can appeal to. I suppose those people could complain to neighborhing councils that they are being discriminated agianst. Then all the worlds one million councils would have to get together, review the evidence in the town of tiny and have a "vote" against that council. Such an action would take literally months since gathering the councils together is burdensome, not to mention that during any given week there are approximately 74,231 complaints placed by world citizens against different local councils. So, in any given day, the worlds councils have to review and vote on more than 10,000 different council complaints from around the world.

So the town of Tiny, which discriminates against black people because its council voted to do so, gets "overlooked" in the momentus loopholes of the one million strong beauracratic council conventions which had to review 12,345 cases during the week prior to Christmas. When the case regarding the town of Tiny was finally brought up in the "world council" more than 6 months after it was first filed (there was a HUGE stack of cases to review, you know), it was late on Friday afternoon and everyone already spent the last 10 hours reviewing and voting on so much other crap, and they all just wanted to get home, so they quickly decided there wasn't enough evidence to support racism. Out of the 1 million councils that gathered together, only 1,234 actually even heard of the town of tiny. More than 99% of the worlds councils dont know a thing about Mongolia and wondered why they had to waste their time voting on crap in that little town, but this is Edric's system and he said they do, so they have to do it. In the giant, megalithic Convention Hall where the million worlds council members meet, the town of Tiny's case was finally read through the loud speakers. Most of the people there, having no idea about Mongolia were playing solitare on their laptops while the case was read. Way in the upper back of the great convention center, the 7 member panel for the council of Kirakira (a small town in the Solomon Islands), began to doze off. The last thing they want on a Firday afternoon is to vote on something in the country of Monglo...Mongalee...Mangola....uhh..what was that country again? Yet they were selected by the Mark III Nema-o-Vote-o-Matic machine with software version 3.24 and because they were getting bored anyway of picking cocunuts (that was their job on the solomon islands), they took the test and passed, hence they became "council" members. Well anyway, they are very bored right now listening to this case way out in Mongulalia...or something like that. So when its time to vote, they just vote NO. When the final tally comes in, the NO's win 58% to 42%. So the council of Tiny won its world case, and the discrimination remains.

[nemafakei]

"Just make another government funded council. Take more money from the working people and toss in some more beauracracy. Sheesh. Talk about getting nothing done"

Not quite. Ask people to work a little for the government, not ask them to pay for some politician to work.

Which would you rather - to pay some politician to smile and open local events, and vote for things in an assembly, or to actually help - personally make a difference, and pay only a little of your own time (and be paid for it).

"nothing is specific with you two"

How the hell CAN we be specific? We will do more detail later, but we want the general ideas accepted a little more, first. So Tiny does not decide 'no black people' - some anthropolgists from Mexico review the case, and (probably) chuck it out. (If they don't, they'll likely be noticed by someone clerking the system, and questions will be raised about the decision - sent to a checking council, and, if there is clearly no good reason, the councillors will be told off (and punished somehow?) for misuse of power, as the decision will have been readdressed by another council.)

"I dont "generally" go to work, I SPECIFICALLY go to work"

We can only assume that you tend to go to work about 5 days a week, we cannot predict exactly when you should go to work. That is for you to decide. We can only set out the basics and the generalisations - this is a constitution. Specifics are managed by the councils themselves - they can, if required, add, and remove councils as needs be, rather than be constrained to what some guy said in 2002.

"When a global issue needs to be decided, local councils come together and decide on it."

This, I disagree with.

Moreover, I dislike the idea of having local councils deciding their own affairs - you get things like the German nuclear powert plants problem above.

[nemafakei]

how they operate, how global issues are defined and implemented, whether or not global politicians exist, and how many machines could be used to 'vote' people into office. Exactly what are these 'many machines' doing anyway

Councils operate by a number of individuals making decisions. The need for a majority or unanimity will depend on the decision. They will be informed on the subject, and asked to discuss the options, ask for more information, then come to a decision. (NB inaction is also decision; there is not always, therefore a default position)

Larger (incl. Global) issues will be resolved by breaking the decisions down into a number of steps. ie research of the problem, possible solutions, analysis of capabilities, and narrowing down of options. Councils will, of course be encourage to include reccommendations and must both quantify and qualify their decisions and findings.

When a council decides an issue must be addressed, it orders a council with certain criteria, like a leaning to economics for economic policy, but no previous racist convictions for a discussion on the village of Tiny's laws (large decisions might require this broken down). Machines will be requested to find approppriate candidates, then select some of them to join the councils. They will, obviopusly use other criteria like not choosing Australians and Icelanders for the same council.

[emprworm]

"nothing is specific with you two"

How the hell CAN we be specific? We will do more detail later, but we want the general ideas accepted a little more, first.

because no government can actually exist to work practically if every particular within the government is defined as a general. A council cannot obviously exist, let alone come to exist, without particulars defining it, including its jurisdiction and accountability. Saying in general "councils will be accountable to each other" has no meaning without a defined mechanism to implement it. I am tired of the general ideology. I want to hear about the mechanics from you and Edric for a change.

(If they don't, they'll likely be noticed by someone clerking the system, and questions will be raised about the decision

lol! you have no idea, rofl, what it is like to work for the government. Clerking the system? A system with literally billions of particulars, you put your stakes on someone "clerking" the system. So now do we have even more councils who review/judge the decisions of other councils? I no longer see a web system, but a power hierarchy.

- sent to a checking council, and, if there is clearly no good reason, the councillors will be told off (and punished somehow?) for misuse of power, as the decision will have been readdressed by another council.)

you assume that misuse of power is a clear case. It could be very hazy. The council may have a good defense. So who exactly has the power to remove a council? I am trying to identify the source of power in your government, so far I have no clear answer. Does the actions of one council get voted on by ALL THE WORLDS COUNCILS or just a select few "governing" councils?

If a governing council, then who holds them accountable? I now see a powerchain forming.

Specifics are managed by the councils themselves - they can, if required, add, and remove councils as needs be, rather than be constrained to what some guy said in 2002.

change law at will? And what is their jurisdiction? limited to geography set by who?

Moreover, I dislike the idea of having local councils deciding their own affairs - you get things like the German nuclear powert plants problem above.

wow, you want a foreigner to decide how your local community should be run? Whatever happened to the WISHES of the community? Your government is turning barbaric. How would you like a bunch of USA Texans coming into your little Dutch town and making decisions on how you are going to live, then they go back to Texas and have a barbecue, meanwhile you are stuck with their decisions. This is beyond absurd, it is rediculous. If you think for one instant people of the Northern Ukraine will be HAPPY with a bunch of suntanning belly dancing Hawaiian Tropical beach surfers setting policy in their home communities, you are delusional. Furthermore you contradict yourself, you want people to be knowledgeable, yet no one has as much knowledge about a local community then the people that LIVE THERE! >:(

Councils operate by a number of individuals making decisions. The need for a majority or unanimity will depend on the decision.

and just who decides and directs these councils as to how many votes any particular issue requires? Sounds like something exists that is independent of, and yet greater than all the councils.

Larger (incl. Global) issues will be resolved by breaking the decisions down into a number of steps. ie research of the problem, possible solutions, analysis of capabilities, and narrowing down of options. Councils will, of course be encourage to include reccommendations and must both quantify and qualify their decisions and findings.

encouraged by who? Is there some great overseer that I'm missing here? And what if they don't quantify their findings? If the world councils decide on something, who exactly will be the one to say "NOpe! You didnt quantify your findings enough!" Any power of the people here? Again you make more appeals to something that exists independent of and greater than the world's councils. What might that be? you keep appealing to it. please define it.

When a council decides an issue must be addressed, it orders a council with certain criteria, like a leaning to economics for economic policy, but no previous racist convictions for a discussion on the village of Tiny's laws (large decisions might require this broken down). Machines will be requested to find approppriate candidates, then select some of them to join the councils. They will, obviopusly use other criteria like not choosing Australians and Icelanders for the same council.

[ordos45]

Emprwrm I would love to see Texans try to go around and boss everyone in Nema's Dutch Village around. Of course since Nema is from the United Kingdom that might be a bit hard, considering the Dutch and British are not the same country, but hey, It would be fun to watch. ;D