Conduct of battle

[nampigai]

OK Otheym, but I don't think that would solve anything.

No Nema I ment that mistakes do happen when at war, but I don't think that it justifies the attack on the rc hosp.

Still I think it's ok to attack the taleban for sideing with Bin Laden.

[nemafakei]

"I belive we should kill 'em all"

Does this include the Americans?

I see, feyd.

[RedDuke]

Wow, am I detecting quite a bit of nationalism in this thread.

Is it just me or does everyone country and every non-American love to insult the United States because why? Because they're envious of what the United States holds. The United States is the richest most powerful nation that the world has ever seen. And Denmark and all those other pithy nations around the world don't like that...they hate the upstart American superpower. Well let me tell you people a few things...I was in New York on Sept. 11. I SAW people jumping from the World Trade Center. I SAW the streets coated with a layer of dust. I SAW the plumes of smoke that rose from the site for weeks after the attack. Al Queda (sp) prisoners are scum, they didn't where uniforms, and they didn't belong to a soverign nation. They are terrorists plain and simple.

Don't you just love it...after giving billions in dollars in aid, and bailing out Western Europe in TWO world wars, we still get treated like dirt. Just because a few prissy Europeans can't stand that they lost their Empires, their Influence, to the Americans...

[nampigai]

You got me wrong RedDuke I don't envy you why should I,If the US would get into an economical crisis my country would be dragged in the mut too.

I think that it's a pitty that the european countries can't take action themself. Take the balcans where the US helped us out again.

And as for nationalists, well the US got a few of them too.

Killing every Afghan will lead us nowhere else but a war between the western world and moslems, I wouldn't like to see that.

As nema said before the taleban haven't changed alot for ages, and because we have to where uniforms and military ID before we can be treaten like pow, don't mean that the young Afgahnians knows that.

[RedDuke]

You seem to be missing the crucial point that the prisoners being held at Quantanamo Naval Base lived in caves, touted weapons, we members of the group that attacked America.

Every country has nationalists but we don't critize your countries for responding to an attack.

And the idiots that you people are seem to be missing the knowledge that the United States of America has recently sacrificed several hundred million dollars to help rebuild Afganistan. That coming from a country that is now in the midst of a recession.

And for your information the prisoners are being treated as good as any POW would recieve. The only reason they aren't being declared POW's is so that America doesn't have to release these terrorists back to Afganistan in accordance with the Geneva Convention...

[nampigai]

I know who they are I still don't think that's the way to deal with this problem.

Well I think that a lot of european countries are helping the US and have done so from the start, I got a friend who was supposed to be send to Afgahnistan and a couple of others who maybe send too.

The US wasn't the only country who paid and are paying for the rebuilding of Afgahnistan

I'm not attacking the US I'm just saying that in MY point of view this won't solve the problem of terrorsism just make it worse.

[garth]

The bombing of a Red Cross hospital was an accident, somehow I don't think two airliners flying in the WTC, one into the Pentagon, and one heading for the Capitol building was an accident.

The US is clearly in the right for retaliating.

[RedDuke]

These attacks weren't to end terrorism...the attacks were to take down Osama Bin Laden, wipe out the Taliban and crush Al Queda (sp). Osama is the only objective that hasn't been accomplished so far...he's dying as it is...this attack was a symbol to show that the United States of America has a new attitude towards the rest of the world...we've been kissing ass for too long and it's time that America taught these bastards a thing or two about what exactly America has in her military...

The rest of the world can sit pretty in their pithy thoughts about America. Haven't you people realized that America doesn't care what Europe thinks...you cowered behind us when the Soviet Union was knocking at your door and when they left the game you people said "hey, we don't need the Americans anymore". Well fine...we'll leave and we'll take our investment capital and aid with us...then you'll change your tune...

[nampigai]

If you look at Israel how far have they come with brute force, not far.

And you said you didn't like nationalists right?

I believe that Bin Laden has to have a trial and I'm sure that he'll be convicted, I don't sympathise at all with he's views or any other terrorists.

[RedDuke]

Bin Laden is guilty...he admited it himself...we have the evidence. It just takes intelligent people to see that. And this forum seems to be lacking that.

Isreal is under constant terrorist attack by the Palestinian infidels. They HAVE TO resort to such measures...the people who attacked America and attack Isreal don't...they choose to...and now they suffer the consequences.

[nampigai]

I've seen the tape and I think he's guilty too.

Israel have to?? I don't think so they to have to want peace before it can happen and as I see it they don't or their government don't.

[alejandro]

"you cowered behind us when the Soviet Union was knocking at your door...."

You let the Soviet Union knocks everywhere. You only suddendly thinks, that if most of the European countries join the Warsaw pact you are lost.

About Osama's tape, why i must think it is true? i don understand them, and you? We only have a goverment translation.

[evilbaronatreides]

Palestinian infidels? Redduke are you Jewish? Or do you dislike Palestinians? And what do you mean "they HAVE to resort to such measures"? You mean thats their only logical choice? Does that mean that the US has to resort to violence in retalation?

[garth]

Alex -

Hundreds of thousands of people saw the tape, if there was an error in translation the odds are staggering that someone wouldve said something by now.  They haven't.

[alejandro]

I said nothing about translation error, i was thinking in manipulation

[Mahdi]

"Wow, am I detecting quite a bit of nationalism in this thread."

And its coming from your posts more than anywhere else.  No that nationalism in itsel fis wrong, only when it gets out of hand.

"Is it just me or does everyone country and every non-American love to insult the United States because why? Because they're envious of what the United States holds. The United States is the richest most powerful nation that the world has ever seen."

Its just you.  Besides, your post is full of misinformation.  Very few western nations are envious of the United States.  The U.N. has never declared it the best country in which to live, according to todays international report it isn't the best place in the world for industry, telecommunication wise the US is a year or so behind a few nations, money wise the US is more in debt than almost anyone else, powerwise there is a certain point where power becomes inconsequential, and that is when you have the ability to destroy the world.  since Russia, Britian, France, etc. all have that ability as well its not very impressive.

"And Denmark and all those other pithy nations around the world don't like that...they hate the upstart American superpower."

Have you spoken to Denmark recently?  Last I heard countries couldn't talk.   "Pithy nations"?  Hmm, no hint of a feeling of nationalistic superiority there.

"Well let me tell you people a few things...I was in New York on Sept. 11. I SAW people jumping from the World Trade Center. I SAW the streets coated with a layer of dust. I SAW the plumes of smoke that rose from the site for weeks after the attack."

Yeah, it was terrible.  We all know that.

"Al Queda (sp) prisoners are scum, they didn't where uniforms, and they didn't belong to a soverign nation. They are terrorists plain and simple."

Scum they may be, but they are still human scum and deserve human rights.  As for them not wearing unifroms and belonging to a soverign nation, whats your point?  Nation states are a relatively new creation, and according to there beleifs they are soldiers of there nation.  The members of the French resistence were not uniformed soldiers.  They were, by definition, terrorists.  As were the original rebels in the American revolution.  Except that they won, so they are now called freedom fighters.

"Don't you just love it...after giving billions in dollars in aid, and bailing out Western Europe in TWO world wars, we still get treated like dirt."

Looks like someone needs to take a real history class.  Western europe has done jsut as much for the States as they have done for Western Europe, as as for the bailing them out of two world wars, well thats jst wrong.  In WW1 America didn't join in until what, the last 6 months of the war?  The American contribution in it was negligable and had no impact whatsoever in the outcome.  In fact, the Americans were considered to be the worse soldiers int he trenches due to there inexperience.  they actually endangered more allied lives than German.  As for WW2 the Americans made major contributions, but the war would have been won by the allies without American help, it jsut would have taken longer.  The USSR won WW2 more than anyone else, not the Americans, Brits, or French.

"Just because a few prissy Europeans can't stand that they lost their Empires, their Influence, to the Americans..."

I'm not even going to bother posting anything significant in response to that.  

"And for your information the prisoners are being treated as good as any POW would recieve. The only reason they aren't being declared POW's is so that America doesn't have to release these terrorists back to Afganistan in accordance with the Geneva Convention..."

Seems "good" is a relative term.  The British call it torturous.

[Mahdi]

"Bin Laden is guilty...he admited it himself...we have the evidence. It just takes intelligent people to see that. And this forum seems to be lacking that."

What happened to that great American ideal of innocent before proven guilty?  He was declared guilty before any evidence was discovered whatsoever, jsut like with the oklahoma city bombing (which was done by American terrorists).   I think he did it, and I think he should be punished in a court of law (preferably the world court) what the problem everyone seems to be having is that he was declared guilty the day of the attacks before there was any evidence.  And I happen to be intellegent enough to know that saying that everyone on this board is stupd is a logical fallacy, which means it is a false argument, in case you don't know.

"These attacks weren't to end terrorism...the attacks were to take down Osama Bin Laden, wipe out the Taliban and crush Al Queda (sp)."

So am I the only one who heard this being called a war on terrorism by the President f the United States?

"we've been kissing ass for too long and it's time that America taught these bastards a thing or two about what exactly America has in her military..."

Kissing whose ass?  Taught which bastards?  Everyone already knows America has (for know) the msot powerfull military in the world.  Although, interesting enough, both the British SAS and Canadian JTF-2 are ranked higher than the best American Special Ops. team, the Canadian sniper training is the msot difficult int he world, and a Canadian reserve unit currently holds the record at Fort Knox for the quickest victory ever (by over 1 hour) which was gainst regular American troops.

Your military has a lot more money, bombs, and men.  Training wise, it's sub-par.

"Haven't you people realized that America doesn't care what Europe thinks...you cowered behind us when the Soviet Union was knocking at your door and when they left the game you people said "hey, we don't need the Americans anymore". Well fine...we'll leave and we'll take our investment capital and aid with us...then you'll change your tune..."

You do realize that that would be an economic disaster for the United States, correct?

"Isreal is under constant terrorist attack by the Palestinian infidels. They HAVE TO resort to such measures...the people who attacked America and attack Isreal don't...they choose to...and now they suffer the consequences. "

S they ahve to undermine peace talks by leaving the table and by no longer acknowledging the Palestinian leader as the leader of Palestine?  Or by bombing Palestinian military establishments when the Palestinian government has nothing to do with the suicide attacks and are trying desperatly to stop them, but can't because Isreal keeps bombing them?  

[exatreide]

"Looks like someone needs to take a real history class.  Western europe has done jsut as much for the States as they have done for Western Europe, as as for the bailing them out of two world wars, well thats jst wrong.  In WW1 America didn't join in until what, the last 6 months of the war?  The American contribution in it was negligable and had no impact whatsoever in the outcome.  In fact, the Americans were considered to be the worse soldiers int he trenches due to there inexperience.  they actually endangered more allied lives than German.  As for WW2 the Americans made major contributions, but the war would have been won by the allies without American help, it jsut would have taken longer.  The USSR won WW2 more than anyone else, not the Americans, Brits, or French."

Mahdi, Mahdi, Mahdi. The resaon germany lost the war was that they had to fight the war on two fronts. If america never came into the war. Great Briten would have lost the war. They would have simply starved to death. If the battle of briten would have continued for 1 more weak. one more weak. GB would have fallen. GB could not have held on any longer. With UK out of the way. And af. Germ could focus on the russian front. Since Uk was destroyed germ could have focussed excusivly on soviet russia. Since America never came into the war. Italy is still a threat. And since america was never in the war Japan could have focussed on China and East russia. Only a idiot fights a war on two fronts. Only the heir to the throne of  idiots would fight a war on 3 fronts. Rus would have fallen nothing to it.

[Mahdi]

Mahdi, Mahdi, Mahdi. The resaon germany lost the war was that they had to fight the war on two fronts. If america never came into the war. Great Briten would have lost the war. They would have simply starved to death. If the battle of briten would have continued for 1 more weak. one more weak. GB would have fallen. GB could not have held on any longer. With UK out of the way. And af. Germ could focus on the russian front. Since Uk was destroyed germ could have focussed excusivly on soviet russia. Since America never came into the war. Italy is still a threat. And since america was never in the war Japan could have focussed on China and East russia. Only a idiot fights a war on two fronts. Only the heir to the throne of

[garth]

"The American contribution in it was negligable and had no impact whatsoever in the outcome.

[Mahdi]

The German Generals forced the politicians to surrender becasue they knew they could not win the war.  In the trenches you couldn't tell who was winning, which is hwy everyone was shocked.  The technology the allies developed (the tank in particular, a British invention before the Americans entered the war) is the main reason why the German generals forced the politicians to surrender.  

"Couldn't disgaree more here, the battles of St. Mihiel, Bellau Wood, and the Meuse-Argonne offensive really showed the American fighting prowess"

You're ignoring the fact that allied troops actually tried to get away from American troops while in the trenches for the simple fact that they wouldn't listen to the veterans, which resulted in the Germans managing to wreak havok on there defences.  There are many ("many times many") accounts of Americans going into the trenches and then giveing away the position of the people in the trenches by fires, cigarettes, etc, resulting in extremely accurate German shelling.  All because they refused to listen to the veterans advice.

"if America had not joined Germany would not have been defeated because they had veteran troops arriving from the east after knocking Russia out of the war."

Once again the German Generals forced the surrender due to the allies tanks and the fact that it was a war of attrition, which even without the tanks the Germans could not have won due to there being outnumbered.

Also, if there had been more than one competant commander on the Allied side the war would have been over in 1916 after the Battle of Vimy Ridge when the German lines were broken, years before the Americans even entered the war.  

But this is getting way off topic.  

[garth]

"The German Generals forced the politicians to surrender becasue they knew they could not win the war."

I believe it was the other way around, the civilians put pressure on the Reichstag which put pressure on the politicians which forced the Generals to back down.  Eric Luddendorf vowed to continue the war to the very last man if need be.

"In the trenches you couldn't tell who was winning, which is hwy everyone was shocked.  The technology the allies developed (the tank in particular, a British invention before the Americans entered the war) is the main reason why the German generals forced the politicians to surrender."

I think you're greatly over stating the influence of the tank, they were only really important success they had was at Cambrai when the British figured out they worked better in massed formation.  Shortly thereafter the Germans had their own tanks (although in very small numbers) and weapons to counter the British tanks, such as a high powered rifle designed to penetrate the armor of tanks.

An excellent example of the German resolve even after the appearance of tanks is the Luddendorf offensive in which Germany regained nearly all the territory it had lost leading up to 1917.  And they accomplished this even though the Allies had tanks in the field.

"You're ignoring the fact that allied troops actually tried to get away from American troops while in the trenches for the simple fact that they wouldn't listen to the veterans, which resulted in the Germans managing to wreak havok on there defences."

The fact of the matter is that the numerical superiority after the Americans arrived tilted the balance in favor of the Allies.  There are numerous cases of great marksmanship and soldiery as well as great incompetance on the part of Americans, after all the Allies still won those battles and they couldn't have done so without American troops.

"Once again the German Generals forced the surrender due to the allies tanks and the fact that it was a war of attrition"

The Generals couldn't have cared less it was a war of attrition to them it was a strategic inconvenience, all they cared about was victory.  The war of attrition only mattered to the German people (the war was being carried on their backs after all) who put the pressure of the Reichstag and finally forced the Generals to back down and the Kaiser to abdicate.

The troops arriving from the east would've given Germany the numerical superiority that matters in trench warfare and pushed the Central Powers on to Paris.  The Americans arrived just in the nick of time and pushed the German people's resolve to the breaking point.

[Mahdi]

"I believe it was the other way around, the civilians put pressure on the Reichstag which put pressure on the politicians which forced the Generals to back down.  Eric Luddendorf vowed to continue the war to the very last man if need be."

Everything I've ever learned says the generals ended the war, the politicians wanted to keep it going.

"I think you're greatly over stating the influence of the tank, they were only really important success they had was at Cambrai when the British figured out they worked better in massed formation."

When the British attacked with one hundred tanks and completly rolled over the Germans, that was when the Germans realized they wre screwed.

"The fact of the matter is that the numerical superiority after the Americans arrived tilted the balance in favor of the Allies. "

The allies already ahd numerical superiority.  In fact, the allied plan for victory (put together by some of the stupidest men ever to wear a uniform) was to trade life for life, becasue them all the Germans would be dead while thousands of Allied troops were wtill alive.

"There are numerous cases of great marksmanship and soldiery as well as great incompetance on the part of Americans, after all the Allies still won those battles and they couldn't have done so without American troops."

In the actual battles the Americans were no differnt than British or French troops, machine gun fodder.  In the trenches they were greatly incompetant and caused many needless allied death.  Could be they won the battles in spite of American influence...

"The Generals couldn't have cared less it was a war of attrition to them it was a strategic inconvenience, all they cared about was victory."

The Germans wanted a war of mobility, that was the only way they could win, and they knew it.  There was no way they could win a war of attrition, and they knew it.  they were outnumbered.  As stated before, most of the allied generals, after the trenches were made, had no problem with a war of attrition because they would have won.

"The troops arriving from the east would've given Germany the numerical superiority that matters in trench warfare and pushed the Central Powers on to Paris."

Seeng as the Russians were knocked out of the war by 1915 most of the soldeirs on theeastern front were already in the western trenches, and the allies had numerical superiority including the Germans fighting the Russians.  Taht was what there entire strategy was built on.  Trade life for life we win with so many thousand troops left.

The American arrival probably made the Germans morale go down a lot and may ahve helped them to decide to surrender when they did, but they would have surrendered anyway within a month or so.

[TMA_1]

Yup mahdi the russians won the war almost. In fact thats why they got to control a part of germany after ww2. Thats why you see the berlin wall. Communism was on the other side of it. America is where I live I love it to pieces. It needs to be told when its wrong though. Nationalism is wrong when it gets out of hand. Like during ww2. We never really wanted to go in there in the first place. It took germany to declare war on us after pearl harbor. America now days is a controlling government. We have no right to go into other countries. It is against other people's and nations rights of independance.

[Mahdi]

Interesting fact:  An hour after Pearl Harbour Canada declared war on Japan in support of the United States, which won't declare war for another day.