Religion

[Acriku]

Empr, this is what happens in our place in the universe. We do not know how water may act when being boiled in another certain part of the universe, and it doesn't have to remain constant. Where did you get these "rules of the universe"? That's insane if you think that they are really the rules of the universe. Assumptions without sense. We do not know the rules of the universe, we will never know them all or any of them, because until we have explored and experimented with every centimetre of it we will never know if the rule is actually true (even then we still might not know).

After saying my point about 6 times now, do you get it?

[gryphon]

Weird, at high school I didn't get my Math test because I gave all kinds of strange answer. Then when had to take my final exame at uni with "logica, phylosophy and computer science" I suddenly did pass the test. Sounds strange and really beats me, but he, that's live. :)

"People who think the universe came from nothing are excersising faith, not science.  This is no different from people that say the universe is created or the universe is eternal.  All faith, atheist and theist alike.  I am adened that you have sufficiently polluted my entire point with your strange math that actually had nothing to do with my whole point."

"Math is not desortable"

Our reality is not based upon science and maths, this entire topic has been around that point. So any attempt to explain reality with science and math is doomed to fail.

If your point is in any way related to mathimatical probbebilety's and reality it does not belong in this topic. Unless you whould be able to proove or disproove religion with it.

[emprworm]

Our reality is not based upon science and maths

I didnt say that our reality is based upon science and math.  I said it is based upon logic.

Are you saying that reality is not based upon logic?

[emprworm]

"Empr, this is what happens in our place in the universe. We do not know how water may act when being boiled in another certain part of the universe, and it doesn't have to remain constant."

Sure, Acriku, you can have faith about that kind of stuff.

[gryphon]

Well, reality based upon logic. . . .

Logica of what ? Our logic, science logic, what logic ?

You think that if it is based upon "logic" we as humans and our human brain / intellect can understand or even grasp this "universal logic" ?

If you whant to know what I think, read my posts. They explain almost any thing you've asked me.

[emprworm]

Gryphon, gryphon, honestly did you actually take a single class in Philosophy?

[Acriku]

NO, I am not saying that what I said was a rule of the universe. It was a theory, just as your "3 choices" are theories. And empr, how do you know all these "intelligent faith-based" theories are true? You don't, so why act like that is the absolute truth? You are like everyone else that is fanatic about their beliefs, that yours MUST be true and CANNOT be false.

[gryphon]

I'm not denying logic, I simply ask what logic ? So please explain what is logic(cal) ?

[ besides the way we expect thing to happend based on a theory we made for it, a theory that is made because we observed some fact or we thougth of it. Now isn't that a nice circle thought. ]

I like this :)

To a situatin when A and notA are both true.

"The lyer say to a persone, I always lie." I know, some guy 50 years ago had a formula that takes half a black bord to exlain that we are talking about language and meta-language. But that again, it is at least doubtable.

Not to mention my fellow countyman who published a book some years ago about a 3th option. things don't have to be simpy true or not true. And again, that simply is a theory. Who knows if it's right.

You have a position, mayby a good one or not, but still a position. But don't say your position is the only one possible. Or give undoubtable proof that it is.

[emprworm]

Primer on basic logic.

It seems that some people dont really have a grasp of the fundamental laws of logic.

[gryphon]

Nice, I've got 3 copies of them on the shelf.

But what does it explain ?

It's a theory made and exepted by humans, made by the sightings they made. But what does logic really say about our univers other then what we a priori know of it ?

ps. please check your IM's :)

[emprworm]

"The lyer say to a persone, I always lie."

This statement violates the law of non-contradiction.  Here, the person is trying to be both A (telling the truth) and non-A (always lying) simultaneously.  This example affirms the law of non-contradiction.  In fact, the law of non-contradiction is an eternal law that has never, nor will never nor could ever, be violated.   Any statement that does not conform to this law (such as the statement "I always lie") MUST be false.  It was false yesterday, it is false today, and will be false for ever and ever.  Amen. ;D

[gryphon]

Ok, this is humiliating, I'm quoting myself now.

"It's a theory made and exepted by humans, made by the sightings they made. But what does logic really say about our univers other then what we a priori know of it ?"

[emprworm]

"Nice, I've got 3 copies of them on the shelf.

But what does it explain ?

It's a theory made and exepted by humans, made by the sightings they made. But what does logic really say about our univers other then what we a priori know of it ? "

What???!!! A THEORY MADE BY HUMANS?

[emprworm]

From this point on, I will gladly discuss this subject with someone other than Gryphon who has wasted 2 hours of my time.

[gryphon]

Would you please check you IM's ?

:)

note: any one who whould whant to talk about this subject please feel free to do so in another thread. As noted above this is about religion, any debate about logic is in my opinion offtopic unless a direct link to religion can and is been made.

[ordos45]

Actually logic can apply to religion.  Which is more logical, "God is omnipotent" or "There is no God"?

[emprworm]

To the moderator:

[Acriku]

empr you are bordering being ignorant. Logic is a system, a system in which most people use to build thier daily assumptions of life. But think outside of the box for once! Prove that there is no other universe in which we substitute as this one(not that I believe this to be true, but bear with me).

Also, 1 is a variable, not necessarily a number. So yes, 1+1=1 in some cases, and 1+1=2 in some others.

[emprworm]

Akiru.

[gryphon]

Ok, and how does this prove or disprove the existens of a possible God ?

[nampigai]

emprworm you talk about our worl being based upon logic, a thoughtjust came to my mind we all know the bumble bee(?) this insect defies logic it shouldn't be able to fly but obviusly it doesn't know that so it flies anyway, that's not logical is it ?

[gryphon]

"I believe that option 1 is most consistent with the laws of science and the laws of logic .  

Because the laws of logic are not voilated with option 1, and  they are violated by options 2 and 3, therefore I believe in God." - emprworm

But there really is no way that you positiefly discard options 2 and 3, those options do not lead to the confermation that God [ or a god ] does exists.

So how do you come to the conclusion that 1 MUST be the only answer on how the univers came to exist ? That's an option of personal nature, nat a scientiffic one. Further more, it can be the wrong option / choise.

[Acriku]

What are you proving with the fact that I used logic to create that sentence? I didn't say logic didn't exist, so what is your point? And my theory, not absolute, is that there are no real absolutes, because we do not know anything about the universe (maybe 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% but even then that is a lot).

[Timenn]

A proven theory can still be wrong after a long time. When there are things found that does not fit in the theory. Look at the flogiston theory. It was a theory about combustion. And why a matter loses weight when it burns out. The theory was that a matter, called flogiston, was in the matter that maked it heavier. And after it burned the flogiston was gone. But there were matters which didn't lose weight but became heavier after a combustion. And a whole new theory about combustion appeared what changed the look at the combustion.

So does it counts with other theories. So you can't be sure that you know something, because you haven't figured out all things.

And that makes science different from religion. Cause religion depends on old stories/legends (bible, koran). And science keep searching for new theories/explanations. Even when you have to break old ones...

Maybe I felt back to an earlier state of the topic. But I needed to react...

(Maybe some sentences are wrong, still not perfect at English :-/)

[emprworm]

There is a difference between theory and law.