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Me- Domaithianus, an introduction, and another fan made campaign


Domaithianus

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21 minutes ago, Domaithianus said:

Yeah, I often speed it up for play testing too.  Really, everyone's got their own way of enjoying the game.  Probably if you saw me play you'd find it pretty bizarre and inefficient.  Over the years due to my OCD, I've picked up numerous rituals and restrictions I always have to play by.  Like my base - has to be neat, concrete exact, etc.  I know full well it's not actually a very effective way to play, but it pleases me... or possibly it just bugs me not to.  Also adds to the challenge.  A lot harder to beat a game when I can't take the most effective route to victory.

Oh, hey, my sis also has OCD.

Yeah I enjoy building neat bases in-game :P Nowadays I just do it in the editor. Enemy bases are pretty organized lol, for my own base I just stick to concrete for specific structures, usually wind traps, and place the rest on open ground.

Here, I dropped this in another thread:

Spoiler

This run was done on Hard difficulty, on S3V2 hard mode (Harkonnen and Atreides are both enemies), on fastest speed in about twenty-four minutes real time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vozkMyFkEM

There is a restart at the beginning because when I start a new game, I cannot start recording right away. I start recording, then hit restart in order to get the entire game in one clip. This will be removed in post-production. Because it's raw footage, I also haven't inserted any commentary, so I'll list some highlights here:

00:07 - I go scouting. Two raiders, two unit groups, and they go as far as I can take them. I use the minimap to scout more effectively.
01:20 - Scouts come together and I start patrolling around to uncover the last bits I feel safe uncovering, and to pick off the occasional enemy unit.
01:55 - First Atreides attack. Durant is defensive on this map, so he tends to hang around the base and let you take care of everything else.
02:08 - Pick off a trooper, see a bunch more coming down. I'll let them aggro onto Durant's units before I swarm 'em.
03:35 - I get some grenadiers behind the turret. Grenadiers make excellent support units alongside tanks or turrets! Quads too, on occasion. While grenadiers aren't in the default D2k game's campaign, they are part of the mod my smugglers campaign is designed around!
04:35 - My first attack. There're only about two minutes in real time before the Harkonnen arrive to kick my butt, so I've got to make this count.
05:10 - I proceed on to the enemy proxy base after making it across midfield. I try to counter the Atreides response appropriately - raiders chew up infantry, troopers blow up quads - and I manage to raze the whole base. I knew it was there with or without preknowledge because I explored the whole rest of the map, and the space below the cliff parting was much smaller than the space above.
06:20 - Harkonnen forces have arrived. They have quite a lot of units, including tanks, and I don't want any of that right now. I'm gonna keep hitting the Atreides, when I get the chance. If I'd have harvested 5,000 Solaris before they arrived, they would have been my ally. This is the "in-game hard mode," extra difficulty added thanks to player choice rather than selecting "hard" from the main menu difficulty setting list. Now I have to fight them and the Atreides!

I continue to build up for the next few minutes. I upgrade my Light Factory, get maximum production speed for all military facilities, secure Durant's other turrets with more grenadiers, and occasionally help fend off Atreides or Harkonnen forces. I don't want any of the turrets to go down, or defense will be significantly harder. The three minutes it takes to recover my strength is relatively long compared to how often I'm out and about for the rest of the match, but it's sorely needed and very much worth it.

09:20 - It's about that time to move out again. I secure the perimeter of my base real quick, then head on over to bother the Atreides some more.
11:00 - I run into turrets in front of the main Atreides base, but it's nothing the troopers I've amassed can't handle.
12:00 - I've breached the base perimeter, and now I need to take out as many targets as possible. Like before, I cover my heavy-hitting infantry with quick, swarming light vehicles while they do their job. Infantry with my mod will patch themselves up over time if you allow them to rest, but I had no time for a hit and run, so I kept going 'til I couldn't anymore. It's a pity I didn't take down any of their refineries, but at least I managed to take out two barracks, two light factories, a repair pad, and their construction yard!
12:45 - Those quads actually manage to take out a refinery. Nevertheless, I return my focus to my base so I can build up against the Harkonnen.
13:48 - The Harkonnen set out to attack me. Grenadiers, troopers, and a swarm of raiders do the trick.
14:13 - Now it's my turn. They have a lot of stuff at their base, but I stunt their production by destroying the barracks and light factory right away.
15:25 - And once again. I destroy the barracks they rebuilt along with a turret and their heavy factory, but the debris kills my infantry. Really bad RNG there. Since I didn't have any infantry to support, I sent the light vehicles at economical targets. I take down a silo and one harvester.
16:35 - Third time's the charm. I have less units, but they're all armed with rockets, minus a few light infantry mixed in with the troopers. I use my quads to try and block the harvester from running over my troopers, but it doesn't work. Despite that, I still take out both their refineries!
17:25 - Alright, last one. I send a bunch of units out to try and finish off the Harkonnen.
17:45 - Unfortunately, they berserk and sell all of their structures. They then send everything they've got at me or the Atreides. I managed to get my light vehicles away, but my infantry were doomed. With help from Durant and a little bit of Atreides, I manage to fend off their final attack from the north base entrance. This is one of those moments you see the power of grenadiers and think, "Damn. Why don't I use these guys more often?"
18:30 - Base defended. Now it's time to finish the Atreides, just as soon as I secure the perimeter and take out the last Harkonnen unit.
19:35 - Back to the Atreides base again. The Atreides still have some functional barracks somewhere in their base, so they send plenty of light infantry, troopers, and grenadiers my way. I blow through the concrete wall with my troopers and take out some of their power while my raiders cover their asses, but my forces are eventually whittled down. I manage to take out four wind traps, two heavy factories, and a refinery, but that stupid harvester ran right over my troopers and their infantry finished my raiders.
21:20 - Oh, well. I've got a lot more waiting back at base, so I get ready to move 'em out again.
22:05 - Their last production structures seem to be near those infantry-only cliff walls. I try to get a good surround with the raiders around the barracks while I use my troopers to take out the turret. It works out.
22:30 - That's all their production. Now to just finish off the rest of their stuff.
23:35 - Was that all their harvesters? Seems it was since they get a new one. That only happens when they're all out, after all.
24:00 - Victory.

If you're interested in checking this map out for yourself, or the rest of the smugglers campaign for that matter, you can find a link in this thread ^^
https://forum.dune2k.com/topic/27508-release-smugglers-campaign/

It's S3V2 in the smugglers campaign. Raw footage, so it lacks the briefing, music, commentary, etc. Still, you can see how I do things :D

Hey, are you gonna make a separate thread for your mercs campaign, or should we drop comments here? I thought of it as an introduction thread, but folks seem to be leaving comments anyway, so. Just wondering if I should withhold my feedback for another thread or leave it here :)

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3 minutes ago, Fey said:
  Reveal hidden contents

This run was done on Hard difficulty, on S3V2 hard mode (Harkonnen and Atreides are both enemies), on fastest speed in about twenty-four minutes real time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vozkMyFkEM

There is a restart at the beginning because when I start a new game, I cannot start recording right away. I start recording, then hit restart in order to get the entire game in one clip. This will be removed in post-production. Because it's raw footage, I also haven't inserted any commentary, so I'll list some highlights here:

00:07 - I go scouting. Two raiders, two unit groups, and they go as far as I can take them. I use the minimap to scout more effectively.
01:20 - Scouts come together and I start patrolling around to uncover the last bits I feel safe uncovering, and to pick off the occasional enemy unit.
01:55 - First Atreides attack. Durant is defensive on this map, so he tends to hang around the base and let you take care of everything else.
02:08 - Pick off a trooper, see a bunch more coming down. I'll let them aggro onto Durant's units before I swarm 'em.
03:35 - I get some grenadiers behind the turret. Grenadiers make excellent support units alongside tanks or turrets! Quads too, on occasion. While grenadiers aren't in the default D2k game's campaign, they are part of the mod my smugglers campaign is designed around!
04:35 - My first attack. There're only about two minutes in real time before the Harkonnen arrive to kick my butt, so I've got to make this count.
05:10 - I proceed on to the enemy proxy base after making it across midfield. I try to counter the Atreides response appropriately - raiders chew up infantry, troopers blow up quads - and I manage to raze the whole base. I knew it was there with or without preknowledge because I explored the whole rest of the map, and the space below the cliff parting was much smaller than the space above.
06:20 - Harkonnen forces have arrived. They have quite a lot of units, including tanks, and I don't want any of that right now. I'm gonna keep hitting the Atreides, when I get the chance. If I'd have harvested 5,000 Solaris before they arrived, they would have been my ally. This is the "in-game hard mode," extra difficulty added thanks to player choice rather than selecting "hard" from the main menu difficulty setting list. Now I have to fight them and the Atreides!

I continue to build up for the next few minutes. I upgrade my Light Factory, get maximum production speed for all military facilities, secure Durant's other turrets with more grenadiers, and occasionally help fend off Atreides or Harkonnen forces. I don't want any of the turrets to go down, or defense will be significantly harder. The three minutes it takes to recover my strength is relatively long compared to how often I'm out and about for the rest of the match, but it's sorely needed and very much worth it.

09:20 - It's about that time to move out again. I secure the perimeter of my base real quick, then head on over to bother the Atreides some more.
11:00 - I run into turrets in front of the main Atreides base, but it's nothing the troopers I've amassed can't handle.
12:00 - I've breached the base perimeter, and now I need to take out as many targets as possible. Like before, I cover my heavy-hitting infantry with quick, swarming light vehicles while they do their job. Infantry with my mod will patch themselves up over time if you allow them to rest, but I had no time for a hit and run, so I kept going 'til I couldn't anymore. It's a pity I didn't take down any of their refineries, but at least I managed to take out two barracks, two light factories, a repair pad, and their construction yard!
12:45 - Those quads actually manage to take out a refinery. Nevertheless, I return my focus to my base so I can build up against the Harkonnen.
13:48 - The Harkonnen set out to attack me. Grenadiers, troopers, and a swarm of raiders do the trick.
14:13 - Now it's my turn. They have a lot of stuff at their base, but I stunt their production by destroying the barracks and light factory right away.
15:25 - And once again. I destroy the barracks they rebuilt along with a turret and their heavy factory, but the debris kills my infantry. Really bad RNG there. Since I didn't have any infantry to support, I sent the light vehicles at economical targets. I take down a silo and one harvester.
16:35 - Third time's the charm. I have less units, but they're all armed with rockets, minus a few light infantry mixed in with the troopers. I use my quads to try and block the harvester from running over my troopers, but it doesn't work. Despite that, I still take out both their refineries!
17:25 - Alright, last one. I send a bunch of units out to try and finish off the Harkonnen.
17:45 - Unfortunately, they berserk and sell all of their structures. They then send everything they've got at me or the Atreides. I managed to get my light vehicles away, but my infantry were doomed. With help from Durant and a little bit of Atreides, I manage to fend off their final attack from the north base entrance. This is one of those moments you see the power of grenadiers and think, "Damn. Why don't I use these guys more often?"
18:30 - Base defended. Now it's time to finish the Atreides, just as soon as I secure the perimeter and take out the last Harkonnen unit.
19:35 - Back to the Atreides base again. The Atreides still have some functional barracks somewhere in their base, so they send plenty of light infantry, troopers, and grenadiers my way. I blow through the concrete wall with my troopers and take out some of their power while my raiders cover their asses, but my forces are eventually whittled down. I manage to take out four wind traps, two heavy factories, and a refinery, but that stupid harvester ran right over my troopers and their infantry finished my raiders.
21:20 - Oh, well. I've got a lot more waiting back at base, so I get ready to move 'em out again.
22:05 - Their last production structures seem to be near those infantry-only cliff walls. I try to get a good surround with the raiders around the barracks while I use my troopers to take out the turret. It works out.
22:30 - That's all their production. Now to just finish off the rest of their stuff.
23:35 - Was that all their harvesters? Seems it was since they get a new one. That only happens when they're all out, after all.
24:00 - Victory.

If you're interested in checking this map out for yourself, or the rest of the smugglers campaign for that matter, you can find a link in this thread ^^
https://forum.dune2k.com/topic/27508-release-smugglers-campaign/


Hey, are you gonna make a separate thread for your mercs campaign, or should we drop comments here? I thought of it as an introduction thread, but folks seem to be leaving comments anyway, so. Just wondering if I should withhold my feedback for another thread or leave it here :)

Nice man, just play testing the latest B mission, but I'd be really interested to check that out after.

I am going to make a separate thread, was planning on finishing the B missions first, but that might take too long, so I'll just do another check through, iron out any glitches, or sloppy formatting I may have left, and get that thread up sometime tomorrow.  Can always add the update with the B missions later.

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Just now, Domaithianus said:

Nice man, just play testing the latest B mission, but I'd be really interested to check that out after.

I am going to make a separate thread, was planning on finishing the B missions first, but that might take too long, so I'll just do another check through, iron out any glitches, or sloppy formatting I may have left, and get that thread up sometime tomorrow.  Can always add the update with the B missions later.

Aye. Alright, I'll wait 'til then, then.

Speaking of testing, H3V1's first draft went up not long ago, if you're interested in having a look at the WIP thread ^^

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On 19/07/2017 at 5:57 PM, Fey said:

If you make a thread for your campaign so far, please link it here and quote me so I know where to leave my own feedback. :D

 

On 19/07/2017 at 8:14 PM, Cm_blast said:

I will play your campaign later.

 

On 19/07/2017 at 4:54 PM, Jasper1993 said:

Im up for playing this campaign. I love the mercanaries so the more mods out the better... SEND THE LINK ;)

OK, separate dedicated thread for my Mercenary campaign is now up.

https://forum.dune2k.com/topic/27556-a-secret-plot-mercenary-campaign-by-domaithianus/

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11 hours ago, Domaithianus said:

Yeah, I often speed it up for play testing too.  Really, everyone's got their own way of enjoying the game.  Probably if you saw me play you'd find it pretty bizarre and inefficient.  Over the years due to my OCD, I've picked up numerous rituals and restrictions I always have to play by.  Like my base - has to be neat, concrete exact, etc.  I know full well it's not actually a very effective way to play, but it pleases me... or possibly it just bugs me not to.  Also adds to the challenge.  A lot harder to beat a game when I can't take the most effective route to victory.

You are like me. I also place all the concretes, only 1 of each building, I kill troopers by shooting instead crashing with tanks...

8 hours ago, Domaithianus said:

OK, separate dedicated thread for my Mercenary campaign is now up.

https://forum.dune2k.com/topic/27556-a-secret-plot-mercenary-campaign-by-domaithianus/

Good, I am near the end of my run, so I'll play yours soon.

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4 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

You are like me. I also place all the concretes, only 1 of each building, I kill troopers by shooting instead crashing with tanks...

Good, I am near the end of my run, so I'll play yours soon.

:c But crushing is fun! And I wish I wouldn't bother with more than one building since spamming infantry on fastest speed is totally aids, but it IS the most efficient, so :P

2 hours ago, Jasper1993 said:

Hey man, dont no if its your mod or my laptop but every time i go onto mission 4 of secret plot, it comes up with "mission is a failure" before ive even begun.

:)

I haven't gotten to level 4 yet, but I started it up just to check for you and some seconds went by without any mission failure. I think I re-downloaded the campaign from the new thread for it, in case of updates, so if I did do that, then I would recommend you do the same. If not, try downloading the version linked earlier in this here introduction thread.

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22 minutes ago, Fey said:

:c But crushing is fun! And I wish I wouldn't bother with more than one building since spamming infantry on fastest speed is totally aids, but it IS the most efficient, so :P

The point is: "If playing like this (placing all the concrete, only 1 of each military buildings, not crashing enemies...) I can beat my map, then anyone can beat it". Don't worry, I crush all the infantry you throw at me, because dealing with 7 devastators and 50 heavy vehicles is challenge enough for me.

For campaigns like yours with several Ais, thousand of enemies and allies that almost died in the process (so at the end I am alone anyway) maybe I will build several heavy factories.

On the other hand, playing too fast and/or too long my hand start to hurt.

I will download the version for the other treath too, just in case.

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Just now, Cm_blast said:

The point is: "If playing like this (placing all the concrete, only 1 of each military buildings, not crashing enemies...) I can beat my map, then anyone can beat it". Don't worry, I crush all the infantry you throw at me, because dealing with 7 devastators and 50 heavy vehicles is challenge enough for me.

Ohh yeah. You know, back during S2V1's testing, I did it with one light factory and one barracks for testing purposes, for that exact reason. I guess I forgot the reason I did it and just gravitated towards the more efficient and messy builds lol. Then again, I do test on hard mode, so... I guess I should fine-tune that so players are compelled to give their all... normal mode is comparatively much, much easier.

XD Hehe. Large Gun Turrets and lots of Troopers :D Just keep Quads or Combat Tanks around to pick off Siege Tanks, maybe Trikes, and their assault will be soooo much less effective with a weaker unit composition. For the rest, I'm extremely fond of Raiders and I use them to pick off Trikes or other Raiders, Grenadiers, and Missile Tanks.

12 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

For campaigns like yours with several Ais, thousand of enemies and allies that almost died in the process (so at the end I am alone anyway) maybe I will build several heavy factories.

It certainly helps, but surely with focused firepower and countering specific units with specific weapons, blowing through the enemy with lesser production is quite possible.

13 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

On the other hand, playing too fast and/or too long my hand start to hurt.

Huh. Y'know, I always forget to take that into account... I mean, I try not to make missions too long for the sake of giving them an appropriate length, something that won't bore the player, but in regard to required APM, that's something I guess I should consider. I've played the piano and done other stuff with my wrists and fingers, so they never seem to hurt in my case...

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4 hours ago, Jasper1993 said:

Hey man, dont no if its your mod or my laptop but every time i go onto mission 4 of secret plot, it comes up with "mission is a failure" before ive even begun.

:)

Hey man, I'm afraid I really can't find the problem if it's with the missions.  I've play tested it on multiple PC's and it all seems to be working fine for me, and nothing looks off when I open it in the editor.  Are you using the first zip upload I put on here, or the one I put on the new thread?  I don't know if the problem was inadvertently fixed in one of my updates, or not, but it might help.  Otherwise, maybe reinstalling would do it?

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6 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

You are like me. I also place all the concretes, only 1 of each building, I kill troopers by shooting instead crashing with tanks...

 

1 hour ago, Fey said:

:c But crushing is fun! And I wish I wouldn't bother with more than one building since spamming infantry on fastest speed is totally aids, but it IS the most efficient, so :P

Haha, yeah, I do love a good squishfest.  But it's good to hear I'm not the only one with strange in-game rituals.  I've often been thinking the same way.  If I can beat the mission while restricted, it should be beatable for others.  Great way of testing the game balance.

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1 minute ago, Domaithianus said:

Haha, yeah, I do love a good squishfest.  But it's good to hear I'm not the only one with strange in-game rituals.  I've often been thinking the same way.  If I can beat the mission while restricted, it should be beatable for others.  Great way of testing the game balance.

But what if you test it on hard? :O

Like, I'd say... the challenge should be reasonable, but it's the player's task to rise to it, not the designer's obligation to deliver victory. That's the sort of stuff Nightmare mode in Doom is made from, and not long ago The Plutonia Experiment was beaten on Nightmare mode by a player with a crapload of practice! Granted, Nightmare mode is not even meant to be fair, but the players find their own way to beat it regardless of it being absolute BS. Y'all get my point though, right? "Here," says the map designer. "Good luck and have fun, victory is possible to achieve but I'm not gonna make it easy on you! It's up to you to rise to my challenge."

I do my best to reduce the amount of bull that can happen, like randomness, too much defense in the enemy base, too much offense coming your way, uhh... stuff like that. And I think balancing it around what the player is capable of building up and doing helps, 'cause it's usually the player's fault if they lose in that case. That's the same reason I like to amp up enemy AIs in place of giving them reinforcements, so that if the player takes out their Harvesters, defeats their attacking force, etc., the time to push back against them is more evident and they're more vulnerable. I still use reinforcements and stuff, like on H2V2 where Durant will send aid to Sumadi if you don't take him out first, but that vulnerability in their alliance is explained in the bullet points and it will definitely still be explained when I actually write the briefing for it. Or in S2V1, where you're not really meant to take the fight to the Imperials, I added reinforcements there because the Imperials build up slowly and you could originally just build Refineries and be done with the map. The enemy reinforcements arrive to stunt your economy by forcing you to spend money on combat units, otherwise the Imperials will overwhelm you, therefore the map remains challenging because it lasts a little while, allowing the Imperial AI to build up their "real" strike forces as directed by the AI, and...

...Uh, but I digress. Pardon me. On the subject of testing with restrictions, I think doing such a thing on normal difficulty is fair enough; you can account for your own intimate knowledge of the map and the potential shortcomings of casual players by balancing normal with restrictions, but on hard mode, don't y'all suppose beating it with restrictions (easily, at least) means you need to make it harder?

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55 minutes ago, Fey said:

...Uh, but I digress. Pardon me. On the subject of testing with restrictions, I think doing such a thing on normal difficulty is fair enough; you can account for your own intimate knowledge of the map and the potential shortcomings of casual players by balancing normal with restrictions, but on hard mode, don't y'all suppose beating it with restrictions (easily, at least) means you need to make it harder?

Yeah, I think you're right there.  It depends on how hard you want it.  Like, my Merc campaign is meant to build in difficulty, so early to mid-game, I apply the 'Can I beat it with restrictions?' test, but later missions I don't worry about that so much, just check that it's technically doable.
There is a danger in going for harder is better.  I feel it's important to have a mix, make some absolute hell to beat, and others, simply interesting.
Like in Dawn of War, Dark Crusade and Soulstorm, I felt like the designers got lazy with the stronghold missions.  They forgot to make them interesting, and just made them hard grueling work instead.  They ceased to be fun, and became more of a chore.

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Just now, Domaithianus said:

Yeah, I think you're right there.  It depends on how hard you want it.  Like, my Merc campaign is meant to build in difficulty, so early to mid-game, I apply the 'Can I beat it with restrictions?' test, but later missions I don't worry about that so much, just check that it's technically doable.

Yeah, that's good. Speaking of which, I had some trouble with M2V1... I'll give you information when I deliver my feedback, whenever that may be, but I figure I should mention. So many tanks!

1 minute ago, Domaithianus said:

There is a danger in going for harder is better.  I feel it's important to have a mix, make some absolute hell to beat, and others, simply interesting.
Like in Dawn of War, Dark Crusade and Soulstorm, I felt like the designers got lazy with the stronghold missions.  They forgot to make them interesting, and just made them hard grueling work instead.  They ceased to be fun, and became more of a chore.

Oh absolutely. I mean, I don't like making things hell to beat, I just try to give the enemies some weaknesses, or give you the right tools to destroy the enemy, and then as long as the map will kill you if you don't try (or don't try hard enough) and it can be beaten in a reasonable amount of time for the level it is, I think it's in a fair spot where it doesn't go on too long but still presents you with significant obstacles.

It could be done through actual base structure on the map, like on S7V1, there are a crapload of rocket turrets are defending the main base entrance, but there are Wind Traps to the west you can destroy to shut them down and there's yet another lightly-guarded base entrance to the east. I've been able to power through the main entrance before, but the Achilles' heel gives you a huge advantage. Even if you take said advantage, the enemy will try to defend with all the units in their arsenal, so it's not too easy, but that's much less of a threat than the main base entrance's meat grinder of a turret line. Aside from that, though, I try to make maps non-linear with several base entrances or pathways or whatever where I can or where it's appropriate, and this sort of mindset is actually why I started modding the game. Trikes and Troopers are introduced simultaneously because not only do they cover each-other well, but they can also kill each-other really well. Quads and Grenadiers are introduced simultaneously at the next tech level, and they have a similar relationship. So, you know, there's always a counter to be used, there's always a weakness to your own unit composition and the enemy's. So, claiming victory becomes easier if, before you've massed hundreds of whatever, you play out the early skirmishes with attention to weapon match-ups. It also makes the difficulty more about microing your own units better, keeping the strong vs. in play against certain enemies and making sure the weak vs. are somewhere safe 'til they can be put to good use.

Then there's the challenge of making the game interesting, as well as the maps. :) A balance of difficulty and pace and... uhh... stuff. Designing maps is fun and engaging, no?

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2 hours ago, Fey said:

I do my best to reduce the amount of bull that can happen, like randomness, too much defense in the enemy base, too much offense coming your way, uhh... stuff like that.

 

2 hours ago, Fey said:

so that if the player takes out their Harvesters, defeats their attacking force, etc., the time to push back against them is more evident and they're more vulnerable.

That's hard to believe when you place 2 Ais sharing the same terrain with 3 heavy factories (6 in total), so even if you manage to destroy the heavy factory thinking "well, at least that give some time", doesn't matter, there are still 5 more to build 2 tanks for every tank the player builds; and at the same time praying that any of the other multiples enemy Ais don't come to help.

Destroying harversters or attacking force don't really make the AI vulnerable. I can destroy a insane army of 50 vehicles, but if I try to reach the enemy base it's still there other Ai with plenty of units. In fact, if I attacked 5 minutes before (when no one was attacking me), the AI will probably will be more vulnerable, because neither of those Ais have the "Here, this is my very big army to attack you". But because one decided to attack (and weakened me) the second is now amassing even more units.

2 hours ago, Fey said:

But what if you test it on hard? :O

For the record, I never play or test on hard :P.

If someone encounter a map "hey, in hard this map is unbeatable", well, bad luck then xD.

I remember doing a mod for Streets of Rage Remake, based on Warriors of Fate beat em up (music, scenarios, enemy placements, but the enemies were the ones from the Sorr game). I was just learning to mod, so I choose the simples solutions: picking the character for Sorr that behave the same way (or the most similar) to the Warriors of Fate character.

That was a mistake, I placed one of the harder bosses as a common enemy. Like placing 4 Ais with Airstrikes and deathands. You still can beat those Ais, but is insane surviving that.

With time and experience, I choose another character to replace that guy, like those 4 Ai having 3 palaces (only 1 palace for AI, different palaces) and no airstrike. So no longer is a insane battle.

Then I uploaded the new, more balance and more fun version and... someone said to me "I understand you decision to that change, but I am going to maintain your first version because that was really challenging"; That caught me off guard.

To mention Dune 2000. What campaign is harder?
My "Butlerian Jihad", your smuggler one, or the War of assasins from Feda?
I can beat mine, I can beat (with much work and +2 hours of gameplay) yours, I cannot beat the one from Feda, and I remember Feda having trouble with some mine, soooooo the world is something weird xD.

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1 hour ago, Fey said:

Designing maps is fun and engaging, no?

Except when you create a final enemy wave at 50 min but is too weak... and the next time is too strong... and you want to hit the wall with your hand XDDDD.

Edit: By the way, Fey's, I understand your point about reinforcements/deliveries: "The AI attacked me, now is the time to... forget it, the Rein/deli bring more units to the AI", but maybe you are not aware of how vulnerable an AI can be because Reinforcements/deliveries, and I mean playing in easy, which cut in half those two events.

So, If you make one base controled by the AI which builds at X speed, and I make another AI; mine builds slower, but is compensated by rein/deli.
Let's asume that both our Ais attack with the same exact number of units, because my reinforcement compensate the slow building.

Just for this, people which play the map on easy my version will be more easy to play than yours (and maybe I was targeting those type of players with my loop-reinforcements, one which you, as a good player, shouldn't have problems to deal with even if that mades then less predicable).

Which I can give you to the next point: "When the enemy attack is the most vulnerable, so now is when I should counter attack". What if I, as a creator, don't want that? If I only need to wait the attack and then counterattack, I don't really need to explore anything on the map, just to know a path to the enemy base is enough. After I see that big attack of Harkonnen marching against me, that's it, I counter attack and I know, even blindy, that the AI is not going to resist me.

But, since in my version I bring those extra loop-deliveries, you need to actually explore the inners of the enemy base. So when you see the enemy harkonnen marching against you, you need to check the enemy factory/starport and look yourself "oh, he has a good amount of units already, maybe I should creates a distraction instead a mindless frontal attack"

Ps: At the end, everyone is going to do differently. I am still looking to fully control when the enemy attacks (which I think I found how to do it); and there is Feda which create big maps with 2 neutrals Ais that can turn on you if you aren't carefully, but can turn against your enemies if you are smart, making his maps much more random.

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5 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

That's hard to believe when you place 2 Ais sharing the same terrain with 3 heavy factories (6 in total), so even if you manage to destroy the heavy factory thinking "well, at least that give some time", doesn't matter, there are still 5 more to build 2 tanks for every tank the player builds; and at the same time praying that any of the other multiples enemy Ais don't come to help.

Destroying harversters or attacking force don't really make the AI vulnerable. I can destroy a insane army of 50 vehicles, but if I try to reach the enemy base it's still there other Ai with plenty of units. In fact, if I attacked 5 minutes before (when no one was attacking me), the AI will probably will be more vulnerable, because neither of those Ais have the "Here, this is my very big army to attack you". But because one decided to attack (and weakened me) the second is now amassing even more units.

You mean S5V1? :O That one was pretty tank-centric, yeah, but the base has quite a few weak points.

1. You can scout it before the Harkonnen turn hostile. The base is mentioned in the briefing to be just north of your base, and it's implied the Harkonnen will be neutral until they discover you're working for the Ordos.
2. There is a Starport on a ridge just south of the base, amid some other structures. The proxy base could be easily overwhelmed fairly early in the game, despite its proximity to the main factory complex.
3. Most of the Harkonnen Wind Traps are situated behind concrete walls on the northwest side of the complex. There's only one Medium Gun Turret on that segment of wall, so razing their Wind Traps is easier than going through either of the entrances.
4. One of the AIs is completely incapable of rebuilding its lost structures. Even if you don't take out the whole base in one fell swoop, you can still do lasting damage! Said AI is also the one pumping out Grenadiers, and that Outpost is located on the same ridge as their Starport.
5. With the exception of a very small Spice field in the middle of their base, both Harkonnen AIs will be sending some of their Harvesters all the way out west or south of their base. These are fine targets for Quads. The initial upgrades for both Harkonnen AIs, as well as the one Harvester they each build, will take them down to zero Solaris from their starting amount... so taking out Harvesters WILL have an impact on either of the AIs. This lack of funds to start with also gives the player plenty of time to scout at the beginning of the map.
6. Tech level 4! Turrets are now a thing. Although the Repair Pad is sweet and could be used to patch up any tanks that take damage, Medium Gun Turrets are even greater defense on this map. With the use of Medium Gun Turrets to hold back enemy advances, and the Repair Pad to keep as many of your forces alive as possible, you can avoid taking serious damage to your base while you build up to attack. It also helps that you can deploy an MCV on any of the rock islands placed around to expand factories and economy, Carryalls are an economic lifesaver on this map, and you can capture the enemy base (or parts of it) with Engineers. It's very easy to turtle the map until you've built up a nice strike force, and then you can go blow through their whole base! :D

And by reducing the amount of bull, I mean... given what you can scout out, and given the context from the briefing, you can see there will be tanks. Their attacks have a rhythm to them, they're to be expected here or there. Y'know? They might have more tanks back at their base, but at least you know the ones you just blew up were tanks they spent Solaris on :P

Here, I uploaded my S5V1 raw footage. Like the S3V2 one, there's no music, briefing, commentary, or any of that. Y'know, since it's raw footage. It was also done on hard mode at the fastest speed! I'll also put some timestamped commentary under the spoiler.

Spoiler

S5V1 - Hard, fast, tech level 4. Objectives: Protect the Ixians, evacuate with research. Objective changes to destroy the Harkonnen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DB5M48OPNcs

00:00 - Right away, I split my initial forces into two. We start with a bunch of light vehicles, so they're obviously for scouting. I check all over the place!
01:07 - By now, I have six more Raiders in my base, ten Troopers, and the entire Harkonnen perimeter scouted. I also see some good spots to set up my own base. I get my scouts back to base ASAP while the dialogue is going on and get my Troopers set up on the rocks. If I can defend them from Grenadiers and Trikes, they'll make taking out Harkonnen armor that much easier. Note that I could just abandon this base and set up in one location, but I'm doing a vid run and I like that base. So, I'm gonna try and keep it.
01:49 - Now that I've got a Starport, an MCV is delivered. I get another MCV because there's more rock I wanna claim. I also pick up a new Harvester and a couple of Carryalls.
02:44 - MCV's at the spot and ready to go. I deploy it and make sure my other MCV is on its way. I also make sure to watch it on the minimap so I can adjust its course when needed.
03:27 - The second MCV is in its spot. I'm just gonna shore up the small base with turrets before I start building more stuff. Having two Construction Yards will help a lot with setting up more quickly.
04:00 - In the meantime, I don't have turrets on the west side of the map, so I form up my tanks and infantry around some rock.
05:05 - I accidentally piss off the Fremen by passing too close. They bother my light vehicles, but I manage to defeat them and destroy their Sietch.
06:20 - I start placing more production structures on the other islands. I've got three Refineries and a bunch of Harvesters and Carryalls, so my economy should be okay.
06:40 - Not sure why I don't move my Troopers out of there. I guess I wasn't paying attention. The grenadiers are a death sentence for them.
06:55 - They bother one of my Harvesters. Although I try to move it, it dies. I take out two of their Harvesters in return.
07:36 - They send eight light vehicles out to do a number on my patrol, but I only lose three units thanks to focused fire.
09:50 - I fail to spot a couple of Troopers headed to the infantry-only while I'm busy fending off the rest of their attack. They manage to take out one of my Harvesters, but that's the only one they're getting. I move a few grenadiers to the cliff wall to make sure of that.
11:00 - It's about time I put down a Repair Pad and kept my units safe. I'm gonna need a nice force to attack them with.
11:55 - I repaired my tanks right on time, it seems. Unfortunately, only my Raiders were close enough to respond to their attack in time, and they get slaughtered by Siege Tanks... but, at least my Combat Tanks were there in case of anything more. I purposefully swarmed over the Siege Tanks with my Raiders in the hopes that their attacks would cause greater damage to themselves. The attack was made mercifully short with that risky move.
14:40 - I finally spot a bunch of Harvesters lounging around with nothing to do. I need more Refineries, so I build more. Probably shoulda done that sooner...
16:02 - Another attack on the east side of the map. Since it's mostly Missile Tanks, my Raiders chew them to bits easily. There are some Combat Tanks too, but with that many Raiders, they don't matter.
16:54 - I left a bunch of tanks out in the open and now they're in a bad spot. Fortunately, I only lose a couple. The infantry squads on those rocks just one-shot most of their stuff.
18:55 - I feel confident about attacking now. I move out and get ready.
19:20 - Here we go! I'm going to ignore their proxy base for now and dive straight into their main base. Through the entrance. It gets messy.
19:40 - Both turrets down. Losing plenty of raiders, but they did their job by getting my Troopers into their base. Any I keep alive now are bonus points.
19:55 - Both western Refineries down. I bring in my engineers to capture some stuff, too.
20:32 - I don't know why this tank stops. He doesn't crush my Troopers and subsequently dies. Oh, well! Now I can go blow up their Wind Traps. I also make sure to drop a Medium Gun Turret and a Repair Pad down in their base so I can keep the attack going at full strength.
20:52 - Another tank stops short. Kinda funny, but a pity for them. Did they just give up? :P
22:00 - Way too much stuff on one pad. I'm gonna build another one.
22:20 - Moving on in the meantime...
22:55 - I'm gonna capture one of their Heavy Factories and destroy the rest. I wanna start pumping out tanks up here.
24:05 - Think I could use another Repair Pad right here... and a Medium Gun Turret couldn't hurt.
24:27 - These Raiders have been sitting here a while. I'm gonna gather the stuff up at my other Heavy Factories and my Starport. The light vehicles will go hunt down some Harvesters, if I remember to order them around the fields. The Combat Tanks, Siege Tanks, and Missile Tanks will finish off the rest of their base on firepower alone.
26:45 - And there's the last of their stuff. Victory!

So that's that. I turtled up until I had enough stuff to break through their defenses, and once I put up some proxy structures in the Harkonnen base, that was it. They were done.

Does that make it look any easier? :o I know I could have attacked sooner, condensed my base more, attacked any of the aforementioned weak points... but this map is fun to expand on :D So I did.

5 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

For the record, I never play or test on hard :P.

If someone encounter a map "hey, in hard this map is unbeatable", well, bad luck then xD.

XD But hard mode! Surely there's SOME testing you could do for it? :( I wanna beat your maps on hard mode lol

5 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

I remember doing a mod for Streets of Rage Remake, based on Warriors of Fate beat em up (music, scenarios, enemy placements, but the enemies were the ones from the Sorr game). I was just learning to mod, so I choose the simples solutions: picking the character for Sorr that behave the same way (or the most similar) to the Warriors of Fate character.

That was a mistake, I placed one of the harder bosses as a common enemy. Like placing 4 Ais with Airstrikes and deathands. You still can beat those Ais, but is a insane surviving that.

With time and experience, I choose another character to replace that guy, like those 4 Ai having 3 palaces (1 of each) and no airstrike. So no longer is a insane battle.

That sounds like hell lol

I'd love to do more with the AI having multiple superweapons, kinda like S6V2 where the Imperials had two Ornithopter strikes, but on that map, you started with a Heavy Factory and had enough stuff to start pumping out tanks like crazy, and Durant left you with a few Missile Tanks. It's not like it was unfair :P

Three Death Hands, on the other hand...

5 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

Then I uploaded the new, more balance and more fun version and... someone said to me "I understand you decision to that change, but I am going to maintain your first version because that was really challenging"; That caught me off guard.

Yeah!!! I love pushing it to the limit :D I'm not the only one :P

5 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

To mention Dune 2000. What campaign is harder?

My "Butlerian Jihad", your smuggler one, or the War of assasins from Feda?
I can beat mine, I can beat (with much work and +2 hours of gameplay) yours, I cannot beat the one from Feda, and I remember Feda having trouble with some mine, soooooo the worlds is something weird xD.

I don't think I can really judge my smuggler one accurately, having created it. Part of the difficulty of a map comes with discovering what it throws at you for the first time, and as the map designer, I know that campaign inside and out. What I TRIED to do was make it fair, though - give the player hints about what's going to happen in the briefing, give the player some time to build up (depending, of course, on how big their starting base is), stuff like that. In S9V2, I was able to destroy the Imperial base to the north of the starting position before the Atreides, Harkonnen, and other Imperial AIs actually started throwing serious attacks at me. I gave the player, balanced around what I did during testing on hard mode and based on feedback received from the forums, enough time to take an objective or otherwise build up one heck of a force.

I kinda remember Butlerian Jihad as being... well, more annoying than difficult. No offense! Like, I remember on level... I think it was three... no, wait! It was level 4, it started neatly enough with a little exchange between Atreides and Harkonnen, and even on hard mode the amount of time I had to build up my base was quite acceptable. I had zero problems with the enemy AI, that was all well and good, but if I remember right, there were THREE worms on that map that gobbled up any Harvester I wasn't keeping an eye on. I did put some Troopers out in the field and I killed worms from time to time, but when they respawn, the only alert I receive is the minimap dot and possibly the sound of rockets firing. Usually they ended up eating at least one Harvester, so I bumped the difficulty down to normal not because I was having trouble with the Atreides or Harkonnen, but rather because I wanted lower prices and to build stuff faster. It was absolute bull putting three worms on that map, I felt. So the level really dragged on 'cause I had to keep replacing Harvesters and watch the worms while building up, and that wasn't pleasant. Really slow to get to the end.

And I remember another one of the levels where, uhh... there was a crapload of reinforcements coming right away. I think it was level 5, where you're fighting a lot of Atreides mostly? And then there was some other faction on the map, the unknown. Right? I remember starting as Harkonnen and by the time I had placed a Wind Trap and Refinery - with the utmost speed, of course - on hard mode, I had so many infantry on my base, it was instant defeat. Tried again, built a Barracks before the Refinery, that was fine. I placed a Heavy Factory, I'd upgraded my Barracks and was pumping out Troopers when suddenly like eight quads and some Combat Tanks zerged my base. I bumped it down to normal because, clearly, hard requires preknowledge and oodles of patience.

On normal mode, I found that I could place a Refinery before my Barracks and still have time to get enough Light Infantry out to fend off the first attack.

An event that practically requires preknowledge to overcome, with rare exceptions, drives me nuts. Like, I started whichever map that was with a pretty fair build. We start with quite a lot of funds, which is nice, but I went for a Refinery first anyway because after my Barracks, I wanted to put up a Heavy Factory. The attacks that came from the Atreides required some fairly specific buildings to start... I mean, what if someone had gone Wind Trap > Refinery > Heavy Factory? Build one tank, it gets gibbed by all the incoming Troopers, and that's GG. Sure, it says in the briefing, "expect an ambush!" or something but given the amount of starting units versus how much they send, and that we don't know what we're gonna see... yeah. We don't even have a Siege Tank to start, the infantry are more than a match for the existing vehicles.

Perhaps a smaller wave to start before the larger ones land could work... could stutter the waves a bit, instead of two Carryalls arriving at once you could have them arrive one after the other. Could also change up the starting units, or give the player some more leeway to build, or something.

Err... but I'm not commenting to give you a review! And I don't wanna talk your ears off lol. If you want more specific feedback, I'll try 'em all again - on normal mode, if memory serves, since hard was... annoying.

I'm actually not sure I've tried War of Assassins yet. I might have, I could just fail to remember. Either I tried it and forgot, or I booted up a couple of the maps at some point, but didn't really progress further. Guess I should go see it again, maybe I can give a better answer then.

5 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

Except when you create a final enemy wave at 50 min but is too weak... and the next time is too strong... and you want to hit the wall with your hand XDDDD.

XD Fine-tuning requires a whole lot of patience. I know the feel man lol

5 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

Edit: By the way, Fey's, I understand your point about reinforcements/deliveries: "The AI attacked me, now is the time to... forget it, the Rein/deli bring more units to the AI", but maybe you are not aware of how vulnerable an AI can be because Reinforcements/deliveries, and I mean playing in easy, which cut in half those two events.

Oh, yeah. I actually had to adjust some events in the smugglers campaign because it turns out on easy mode it skips over some units being delivered which are required to progress the map. That's how I found out easy was screwy with reinforcements lol

5 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

So, If you make one base controled by the AI which builds at X speed, and I make another AI; mine builds slower, but is compensated by rein/deli.

Let's asume that both our Ais attack with the same exact number of units, because my reinforcement compensate the slow building.

Just for this, people which play the map on easy my version will be more easy to play than yours (and maybe I was targeting those type of players with my loop-reinforcements, one which you, as a good player, shouldn't have problems to deal with even if that mades then less predicable).

Of course. That's fair, I think, but the build speed and reinforcements have to even out, or it makes things too hard or too easy. I guess like BJ5, if that's the right map. The reinforcements that arrived early on weren't simply a deterrent from attacking the Atreides, but a seriously threatening strike force, and I don't think there was adequate leeway to compensate for early-game player choice, thus resulting in said reinforcements being utterly brutal and unfair... unless you know they're coming. Yeah, that level's initial reinforcements blew my ass back to the stone age.

Well, not really, but it did a number on my standing units, more of a number than it should have that early in the game, in my opinion.

I think reinforcements are best as a complement to the AI, used to occasionally bolster its forces (S3V1, Atreides early-game reinforcements), or on more specific occasions, it could deter early progress on the map (S2V1, cash-dependent Imperial reinforcements), it could bring extra units into play during a significant event (like the Ordos betrayal in one of the earlier BJ levels), y'know. For the player, it could compensate for lost units (light vehicle delivery on S2V1), be given to complete an objective (H2V2, Missile Tanks vs Carryalls), or simply fortify the player's standing units (H3V1, bonus objective).

So yeah, I think reinforcements can work as a lasting mechanic throughout a map, I just have reservations about being too generous with them (with exceptions) for reasons expressed. Though I completely understand their purpose for difficulty.

5 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

Which I can give you to the next point: "When the enemy attack is the most vulnerable, so now is when I should counter attack". What if I, as a creator, don't want that? If I only need to wait the attack and then counterattack, I don't really need to explore anything on the map, just to know a path to the enemy base is enough. After I see that big attack of Harkonnen marching against me, that's it, I counter attack and I know, even blindy, that the AI is not going to resist me.

But, since in my version I bring those extra loop-deliveries, you need to actually explore the inners of the enemy base. So when you see the enemy harkonnen marching against you, you need to check the enemy factory/starport and look yourself "oh, he has a good amount of units already, maybe I should creates a distraction instead a mindless frontal attack"

That's a very good point, and I agree. I guess my way of making the AI not be a total pushover after its big attack is by having multiple AIs. I tend to give them a high ratio for attacking so they send most of their units out, and I often reduce their attention to defense as well. One notable exception was added recently in H3V1, where one of the AIs hardly attacks, but will focus hard on defense. The AI turtles like hell on that map and it needs fine-tuning. :P

5 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

Ps: At the end, everyone is going to do differently. I am still looking to fully control when the enemy attacks (which I think I found how to do it); and there is Feda which mapes big maps with 2 neutrals Ais that can turn on you if you aren't carefully, but can turn against your enemies if you are smart, making his maps much more random.

Yeah. I express my own stance on reinforcements often in response to maps that use reinforcements a lot. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad, and I give my feedback 'cause what I encounter during my playthrough is good for the map designer to know. Perhaps some changes are warranted, or perhaps I'm just not doing it right. That's up to them to decide; I just give my two cents.

Oh yeah. I love playing with neutral AIs, and that is a concept I recall from (presumably) Feda's maps. Maybe I did complete WoA, but I just forgot... or was it another map...? Hmm...

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2 hours ago, Fey said:

You mean S5V1? :O That one was pretty tank-centric, yeah, but the base has quite a few weak points.

I mean in general, but either way. Maybe the Harkonnen are neutrals, but with all the ("bad") surprise you give me... do you really think I am going to send anything anywhere the Harkonnen? XD The last Time I send a Raider to explore some neutrals bases some lines about complains appears on screen.

Also, Logic.
Objetives: Protect the Ixian base and evacuate my forces.
Ix = good, Anyother = bad.
My first reaction is to go after the harmless faction.
And my second reaction avoid the only other factions, since to be a game one need to be enemy, sooooo, not even scout, don't want to angry them even more.
 

2 hours ago, Fey said:

XD But hard mode! Surely there's SOME testing you could do for it? :( I wanna beat your maps on hard mode lol

You are free to try. You know more tricks than I to beat those maps, so noone is stopping you xD. Just because an author don't beat his own game doesn't mean that can't be beated of fun/challenging for others :P.

2 hours ago, Fey said:

I'd love to do more with the AI having multiple superweapons,

Since the editor allow it, I am always trying to include in some way, but always in a fair way (and making sense). I already have a map with 3 Atreides Palace and another for 3 Ordos Palace, so the DH need to wait a little longer.

2 hours ago, Fey said:

there were THREE worms on that map that gobbled up any Harvester I wasn't keeping an eye on. I did put some Troopers out in the field and I killed worms from time to time, but when they respawn, the only alert I receive is the minimap dot and possibly the sound of rockets firing. Usually they ended up eating at least one Harvester, so I bumped the difficulty down to normal not because I was having trouble with the Atreides or Harkonnen, but rather because I wanted lower prices and to build stuff faste

That probably was a mistake; I remember recommending the owner of the editor a way to search sandworms. Didn't know the number of sandworms appears on the editor. Even now, I was looking at the map (I didn't remember which one was), and took me a while finding the third sandworm, so probably there should be only 2. I only use 3 if the map is very big and/or several players.

2 hours ago, Fey said:

And I remember another one of the levels where, uhh... there was a crapload of reinforcements coming right away. I think it was level 5, where you're fighting a lot of Atreides mostly? And then there was some other faction on the map, the unknown. Right? I remember starting as Harkonnen and by the time I had placed a Wind Trap and Refinery - with the utmost speed, of course - on hard mode, I had so many infantry on my base, it was instant defeat. Tried again, built a Barracks before the Refinery, that was fine. I placed a Heavy Factory, I'd upgraded my Barracks and was pumping out Troopers when suddenly like eight quads and some Combat Tanks zerged my base. I bumped it down to normal because, clearly, hard requires preknowledge and oodles of patience.

I was a <censored> when I did that level XD, I admite it. the briefing said something, but I should make more emphasis on that. Today I write more on my briefings (maybe too much), so probably is a lack to advice to the player that you are going to be assaulted very bad.

Also, I was worried of good players discovering the unknow enemy before I said so.
I had fear.

Spoiler

I must not fear, fear is the mind killer.

2 hours ago, Fey said:

yeah. We don't even have a Siege Tank to start, the infantry are more than a match for the existing vehicles.

Who needs Siege tanks, someone wise once said - "But crushing is fun!" xD.

I can tell you something about my own experience. I create (long time ago) a game with the famous RPG maker pro (which the program works only on windowns 98). I created a scenario where you have a ship and need to move avoiding some Whirlpool on the water. On top of that, several pirate ships start to chase you.

Step on a whirlpool, and game over. get touched by those ships, and game over.

Testing and testing and testing, and more testing and several tests later... "Mmm... all works fine, but this is too easy. I am going to make the ships to going faster when you reach certain point". Test it "still not enough, I can leave behind those ships for too much distance" a few more test later... "Now, now is perfect".

<several months later>
"I am going to play that game I made[...] Oh, the ship part, let's go!" (8 gameovers laters). "... Why I made this part so hard!!!!"

So... yeah, I didn't learn from that XD. <-- to be fair, that campaign was done before the mission launcher. Now with all the information displayed on screen is much easy to check if i went too far.

I just full went with the ideas:
Atreides harass you like no tomorrow, so not even the good-pro-god players can go trough them.
Unknown enemy defeat the Atreides easily.
What kind of enemy defeats so easily that guy that I can hardly resist?

Just of curiosity. Besides being annoyed by the map. How about seeing the Atreides stopping the attack to return to protect their base?

2 hours ago, Fey said:

thus resulting in said reinforcements being utterly brutal and unfair... unless you know they're coming. Yeah, that level's initial reinforcements blew my ass back to the stone age.

Just to point out, I needed to restart a couple of your maps because I used the early money on units thinking that someone was coming... but nobody was coming... until a big army appears but I didn't have the economy to compensate that attack.

So tecnically in your maps I also need to know they're (not) coming, because if I think otherwise I get overrun by the enemy.

2 hours ago, Fey said:

Oh, yeah. I actually had to adjust some events in the smugglers campaign because it turns out on easy mode it skips over some units being delivered which are required to progress the map. That's how I found out easy was screwy with reinforcements lol

I forgot about that until very late. Who knows if there isn't some of my missions that can't be completed by that.

2 hours ago, Fey said:

Oh yeah. I love playing with neutral AIs, and that is a concept I recall from (presumably) Feda's maps. Maybe I did complete WoA, but I just forgot... or was it another map...? Hmm...

Probably him. He has 3 war of assasins and 3 expansions campaign, so maybe you try one of the two groups.
 

2 hours ago, Fey said:

Yeah. I express my own stance on reinforcements often in response to maps that use reinforcements a lot. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad, and I give my feedback 'cause what I encounter during my playthrough is good for the map designer to know. Perhaps some changes are warranted, or perhaps I'm just not doing it right. That's up to them to decide; I just give my two cents.

I was dealing with the merc-mission 5, And now I died to the enemy lol; well, I think I already balanced that, or so I hope.

Edited by Cm_blast
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1 minute ago, Cm_blast said:

I mean in general, but either way. Maybe the Harkonnen are neutrals, but with all the ("bad") surprise you give me... do you really think I am going to send anything anywhere the Harkonnen? XD The last Time I send a Raider to explore some neutrals bases some lines about complains appears on screen.

XD You keep me on my toes too, and that's one of the things I really like about, say, the BJ campaign. Second mission - I remember this one for sure - I thought I was in the clear, and then a whole bunch of tanks are like, "hi, we're here to rek ur sht"

Except you have to survive

But that one large wave wasn't bad at all since Quads mop 'em up real easy. Could use a little infantry rock somewhere for the Combat Tanks, but despite getting some guys crushed I still managed to beat it. Now that's a GOOD surprise and sudden onset of lots of enemy forces. :D

4 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

Also, Logic.
Objetives: Protect the Ixian base and evacuate my forces.
Ix = good, Anyother = bad.
My first reaction is to go after the harmless faction.
And my second reaction avoid the only other factions, since to be a game one need to be enemy, sooooo, not even scout, don't want to angry them even more.

Did Hassem take out a couple of tanks at a bad time? :P

But yeah, I getcha. It's risky exploring, but the risk makes it more fun!! I try to be bold with scouting on any other campaign as well, at least to a point. If I think I can see the general path of the enemy, that should be good enough.

7 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

You are free to try. You know more tricks than I to beat those maps, so noone is stopping you xD. Just because an author don't beat his own game doesn't mean that can't be beated of fun/challenging for others :P.

I have absolutely no doubts that ID didn't play-test Doom on Nightmare mode. Doesn't mean the game isn't totally broken on that difficulty XD

9 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

Since the editor allow it, I am always trying to include in some way, but always in a fair way (and making sense). I already have a map with 3 Atreides Palace and another for 3 Ordos Palace, so the DH need to wait a little longer.

3x Fremen production? /wrists

What way are you trying to make those maps 'fair,' exactly? :P

10 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

That probably was a mistake; I remember recommending the owner of the editor a way to search sandworms. Didn't know the number of sandworms appears on the editor. Even now, I was looking at the map (I didn't remember which one was), and took me a while finding the third sandworm, so probably there should be only 2. I only use 3 if the map is very big and/or several players.

I figured as much, no one would be THAT insane to put three worms in a map like that. lol. To make matters worse, I distinctly recall they were lingering around my base pretty much non-stop.

Was it level 5? Did I get it right?

11 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

I was a <censored> when I did that level XD, I admite it. the briefing said something, but I should make more emphasis on that. Today I write more on my briefings (maybe too much), so probably is a lack to advice to the player that you are going to be assaulted very bad.

Also, I was worried of good players discovering the unknow enemy before I said so.
I had fear.
I must not fear, fear is the mind killer.

that source material reference

I see. So, I suppose a fierce attack or two would be suitable for the level, but not an attack meant to outright kill the player. Back when I was doing Doom modding, I had a similar philosophy with fine-tuning the difficulty. I want to give the player a hard time, throw some insanity at them, but if I reach the point where a mechanic is too likely to outright kill them, I've gone too far. Y'know?

16 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

Who needs Siege tanks, someone wise once said - "But crushing is fun!" xD.

I can tell you something about my own experience. I create (long time ago) a game with the famous RPG maker pro (which the program works only on windowns 98). I created a scenario where you have a ship and need to move avoiding some Whirlpool on the water. On top of that, several pirate ships start to chase you.

Step on a whirlpool, and game over. get touched by those ships, and game over.

Testing and testing and testing, and more testing and several tests later... "Mmm... all works fine, but this is too easy. I am going to make the ships to going faster when you reach certain point". Test it "still not enough, I can leave behind those ships for too much distance" a few more test later... "Now, now is perfect".

<several months later>
"I am going to play that game I made[...] Oh, the ship part, let's go!" (8 gameovers laters). "... Why I made this part so hard!!!!"

So... yeah, I didn't learn from that XD.

I just full went with the ideas:
Atreides harass you like no tomorrow, so not even the good-pro-god players can go trough them.
Unknown enemy defeat the Atreides easily.
What kind of enemy defeats so easily that guy that I can hardly resist?

Just of curiosity. Besides being annoyed by the map. How about seeing the Atreides stopping the attack to return to protect their base?

Lol, that feel when XD Same thing happened to me. It's the intimacy right after the design process, you know exactly how it all works and you have a fine-tuned strategy... come back and forget all that, suddenly the map is too hard.

Oh, the map that was annoying was the one with the three worms. I was like "AAAAGH" every time one of my Harvesters got gobbled. The one after, with the Atreides and the unknowns, that was more like "oh, this is broken as hell on hard mode and remains really brutal on normal. what am I supposed to do here, exactly? I can't really attack until I build up, and that's gonna take forever with these large reinforcements showing up everywhere..."

I never saw the Atreides stop their attack and return to base. The attacking units I usually spotted appearing on the radar from their Carryalls, and they were all 110% hostile.

22 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

I forgot about that until very late. Who knows if there isn't some of my missions that can't be completed by that.

Ikr? x_x I went back and looked through everything as soon as I found out about it. Talk about a hassle. lol

23 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

Probably him. He has 3 war of assasins and 3 expansions campaign, so maybe you try one of the two groups.

Yee.

23 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

I was dealing with the merc-mission 5, And now I died to the enemy lol; well, I think I already balanced that, or so I hope.

Was that the one with the Starport reinforcements? XD I removed my mod for now to test Domaithianus' maps. I'm gonna try the OoM campaign again at some point.

4 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

I want to apologize to Domaithianus, because we invaded his topic.

Same. Sorry, Domaithianus! :P I'll react to your campaign as soon as I can, so. Pardon the digression, please. lol

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14 hours ago, Fey said:

3x Fremen production? /wrists
What way are you trying to make those maps 'fair,' exactly?

Not only that, but The .ini is modified so 4 Fremen are created each time instead 2.

But don't worry, that happens in the Tleilaxu campaign. The Tleilaxu are resurrecting all the dead bodies of all the people you killed during the whole campaign, so in this map the player is receiving plenty of infantry units for free.

14 hours ago, Fey said:

I figured as much, no one would be THAT insane to put three worms in a map like that. lol. To make matters worse, I distinctly recall they were lingering around my base pretty much non-stop.

Was it level 5? Did I get it right?

Is the only level with 3 sandworms, not even the last one with all those players have 3, so was just that: old editor, old everything, more hard to do things, change things or see things.

The sandworm only going against you is bad luck; Atr and Hark have harversters over there, so blame them for going only against you :P.

14 hours ago, Fey said:

I never saw the Atreides stop their attack and return to base. The attacking units I usually spotted appearing on the radar from their Carryalls, and they were all 110% hostile.

That happens when the unknow start the attack. Some message triggers like "Atreides: base under attack, retreat" or something like that. The player have time to defeat the trikes and a few quads, but heavy vehicles and troopers will stop and come back to their base.

Also... that old editor didn't allow AI edition (only export/import); so is hard to make a AI to behave as you like if you don't even have the numbers. I used one of the first Ais from the original game like map 3 or 4, since early maps the AI only have 1 ref per refinery... But even with that you don't even know how defensive, ofensive, speed... of the AI.

So all was blindy. I choose a bad AI and create lots of carryalls to do the regular attacks.

Updating from "overwrite original maps" to "mission launcher" was only that, and update. Changing waves, AI values and etc requires lots of testing on a map I was already tired because back in time require much more testing (creating manually flags; If later you remove a previous event you need to update manually the number of the flag, etc...).

 

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58 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

Not only that, but The .ini is modified so 4 Fremen are created each time instead 2.

But don't worry, that happens in the Tleilaxu campaign. The Tleilaxu are resurrecting all the dead bodies of all the people you killed during the whole campaign, so in this map the player is receiving plenty of infantry units for free.

/wrists

Oh, that's cool.

59 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

Is the only level with 3 sandworms, not even the last one with all those players have 3, so was just that: old editor, old everything, more hard to do things, change things or see things.

The sandworm only going against you is bad luck; Atr and Hark have harversters over there, so blame them for going only against you :P.

It was very annoying bad luck T_T Pls nerf worms

1 hour ago, Cm_blast said:

That happens when the unknow start the attack. Some message triggers like "Atreides: base under attack, retreat" or something like that. The player have time to defeat the trikes and a few quads, but heavy vehicles and troopers will stop and come back to their base.

Also... that old editor didn't allow AI edition (only export/import); so is hard to make a AI to behave as you like if you don't even have the numbers. I used one of the first Ais from the original game like map 3 or 4, since early maps the AI only have 1 ref per refinery... But even with that you don't even know how defensive, ofensive, speed... of the AI.

So all was blindy. I choose a bad AI and create lots of carryalls to do the regular attacks.

Updating from "overwrite original maps" to "mission launcher" was only that, and update. Changing waves, AI values and etc requires lots of testing on a map I was already tired because back in time require much more testing (creating manually flags; If later you remove a previous event you need to update manually the number of the flag, etc...).

Oh, maybe I don't remember it then.

Yeah. If you go back and change up the campaign, I look forward to seeing what's fixed. :D

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On 23/07/2017 at 9:04 PM, Fey said:

Domaithianus makes the best missions, I sure wish he'd make some one-shots too!

 

On 23/07/2017 at 6:59 PM, Cm_blast said:

Yeah, he's just the coolest.  I'd love if he did that!

 

On 22/07/2017 at 2:00 PM, Jasper1993 said:

Yeah, let's make Domaithianus King of everything ever!

I accept my new title as King of everything ever.  Thank you.

Also, I've made a standalone mission for the fun of it if anyone's interested.  It's based on the Ordos mission 4 in the Original Campaign - specifically what happens next.  I used the same map, but expanded the terrain out to the South and East, and rebuilt it as an Ordos controlled region.

SBD.zip

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