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Cm_blast

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[Release] Mercenary Campaign - The Origin of the Mercenaries

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Posted (edited)

This is a new Campaign titled: “The origin of the mercenaries”. This is the story (non official) of how the mercenaries were born and giving a feeling to the player that you are actually somewhat weak.

PLOT:
At the beginning, there were a group of smugglers picking the spice and sending it out of dune in exchange for money, but now with all those Atreides, Harkonnen, Ordos and even the Emperor fighting each other every day is harder and harder to harvest, with all the good places already taken by one of those factions and all that remains are poor places of spice or too dangerous.

Because of that, a man decided to become a mercenary, hoping to make more money that way. A few fellow smugglers will join him and start this new job by meeting with the first faction they'll encounter.

THE CAMPAIGN:
For this campaign I tried the approach to make the player to feel overall weak, needing the help of whatever house that you’ll join during the campaign.

The player, most the time, has much less technology than the other enemies, so when your quads and troopers gets destroyed by those siege tanks, then you know that you are not strong enough to win alone or your job consists in an easiest task, at least in the firsts levels.

In some of the mission the player will start with a base that can’t be expanded, but in other maps you have your own Construction Yard to build the base at your will.

THE FEELING:
To maintain the fantasy that you, as mercenary, should not be the main objective from the other factions, I made some AIs to focus your ally and not the player. Technically, the AI will attack the closest enemy (and I mean attacking directly, not going after the player and then turning on your ally - chaotic battles may modify the behaviour of AI).

For example, there is a mission where the player is working for “someone”. Also, there are other two factions that will send units each other, so as long as the player does not move too far away from your own base, those two will ignore you. The player still needs to deal with trouble, but is less dangerous than those two factions.

IMAGES:
59752d7e30016_Theoriginofthemercenaries1.PNG.020881dbd95f205c33a3bd96c5ada6d4.PNG59752d819b010_Theoriginofthemercenaries2.PNG.3ac61481866be7fda4815afcecef6748.PNG59752d9823df2_Theoriginofthemercenaries3.PNG.c9db91066556ccb92e03c2fd812a95b3.PNG

FILE:
The origin of the Mercenaries.zip

INSTRUCTIONS:
The file uploaded includes all the files needed except “Dune2000.exe” and “missionlauncher.exe”.
If this is your first time getting a custom campaign then you need to search those two .exe and copy/paste everything included in my zip.
If the previous step already was done for another custom campaign, then just copy/paste the files in the "mission" folder.
Read the readme.txt for more detailed instructions.

Edited by Cm_blast
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Hell yeah! I'm gonna check this out. Is this the more story driven content you said you'd put out?

I haven't forgotten about my own campaign, by the way, I've just been really busy. :) I stop on often but I have yet to resume work on it.

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Posted (edited)

20 hours ago, Fey said:

Hell yeah! I'm gonna check this out. Is this the more story driven content you said you'd put out?

Sorry, but I don't understand what you said. I'm guessing you mean if the campaign has more history than I wrote here.

Well, It's not at all like what you usually write for your campaigns, but mine isn't really that simple that just "they join X group and they live happy forever". Several factions will meet with this new group of mercenaries, but don't want to said too much :P.

I can tell I used several ideas I saw/play in other campaigns, but with trying a new approach. The way one mission ends is similar to an idea of one of your campaigns. Another mission is based on the Akafeda's Mercenary Campaign (anyone who played it will recognize the similarities), but also there is another campaign (don't ever remember which one) with a concept I could be used in other way.

Edited by Cm_blast
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2 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

Sorry, but I don't understand what you said. I'm guessing you mean if the campaign has more history than I wrote here.

Yep!

2 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

Well, It's not at all like what you usually write for your campaigns, but mine isn't really that simple that just "they join X group and they live happy forever". Several factions will meet with this new group of mercenaries, but don't want to said too much :P.

I can tell I used several ideas I saw/play in other campaigns, but with trying a new approach. The way one mission ends is similar to an idea of one of your campaigns. Another mission is based on the Akafeda's Mercenary Campaign (anyone who played it will recognize the similarities), but also there is another campaign (don't ever remember which one) with a concept I could be used in other way.

Yep. More story! Moooooore!

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Posted (edited)

38 minutes ago, Fey said:

Yep. More story! Moooooore!

Well, at least I can tell you that in the briefing sometimes there is a guy talking in first person, something like this: "I talk with X faction, so now we work for them. They are willing to give us a task. We need to destroy all the Sietchs, but don't kill any Fremens".

This briefing is just a made up story.

There is a "main character/leader", because he is the one who accept/reject jobs; also he is the one that will said things like "do this, don't do that" like if the player is some kind of "commander". I never use the "commander" or "general" or anything, but since the player is technically the one with direct control over the units that makes sense to me :P.

But again, don't expect an overextended and over detailed story. I would be happy for the mere fact that you are able to understand a text that was first written in Spanish and then translated into English :laugh:.

 

Edited by Cm_blast
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Neat. I'll check it out.

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Posted (edited)

Hi .Your idea is so beautiful. And story very nice.Betrayal is a surprise. I was excited. I did not expect. I have repeated it a few times. I accepted the betrayal. I like  your campaign.i am waiting for more difficult missions :))))really best for me your mods..Thank you again.

Edited by djbaskan60
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Posted (edited)

Hey, I don't have time to head through all of 'em right now but I went through the first five. Nice stuff, Cm!

Here's some feedback:

Spoiler

Mercenaries 01
I was really pleased to see a unique objective before starting this map. There is real motivation for the protagonist to want to become a mercenary, given everything. I had to be really careful with luring enemy infantry out from their defensive line, which isn't really my style, so I would recommend less infantry or more mercenaries, but hey. That's just my preference. Another thing I really liked about this map was the cinematic, but time-conscious ending - the Harkonnen only destroyed the turrets before victory was achieved, so we didn't have to wait for them to blow up ALL the things.

Mercenaries 02
Ah, a twist ending! Was it supposed to say "Mission failed." at the end on purpose? That was kind of confusing, but I figured I "beat" the map, so I just moved on to the next one. Was this betrayal perhaps inspired by Sumadi versus Summers? :) Aside from that, holy hell, the Atreides send so much crap. I played through this on normal (because I didn't take off my own mod, so the refineries and other stuff were super overpriced to begin with) and it took a few tries. I take it grenadiers normally wouldn't be sent my way, but in any case, I would strongly recommend some infantry rock or extra cover of some sort - even a little would be great! I figure you made it so the Harvester doesn't get replaced if it's destroyed on account of it being a short map and the Harvester being overpowered for squishing infantry, so, no comment on that unless you have a different reason for not replacing the Harvester.

Mercenaries 03
This one was done pretty well, even with reinforcement spam, which I'm normally not very fond of except under specific conditions. Take out small base against superior enemy troops, gain momentum, push into the final base. GG! And the lack of infantry rock around the enemy base is fair, given your ally will frequently push hard against their defenses, so if you bring your infantry in at the right time, they won't be prioritized. The infantry rock and wall cover around the main base was very well placed too.

Mercenaries 04
Oh man, this is how NOT to do reinforcement spam. The first couple were pretty fine - two tanks, four troopers, not too hard, but still a threat. I really liked the bit where the Ordos sent a crapload of stuff, only to be pushed back by the Atreides; that was pretty cool, but I lost pretty much all my units trying to defend my base before the Atreides got there to save my ass. A liiiittle bit of infantry rock or cliff wall or something around the base perimeter sure would help the player's units last a little longer. The part that I thought was really bad was the infinite reinforcements for the rest of the game. I think I got, like, two raiders, two light infantry, a trooper and a quad... the Ordos got, like, a siege tank, some combat tanks and light vehicles... I'm not complaining that the Ordos got more, the challenge is part of the game, but when the reinforcements show up all the time, it's difficult to build up steadily to strike out at the enemy. I was busy harassing their harvesters with a bunch of quads when the Ordos sent a carryall my way, and that was messy. If you insist on keeping infinite reinforcements, perhaps you could add conditions for when it arrives? For instance, if you build an outpost, you get infinite reinforcements. If their outpost is still up, they still send stuff your way. Just a thought.

Mercenaries 05
AAAAAAAAAAAAAGH this one bothered me. Starting up the economy and such was easy enough, and the couple of smuggler attacks before the Harkonnen send some stuff your way were perfectly suited to the starting defenses. However, the Harkonnen have notably infinite starport reinforcements on a very short timer. I had three Heavy Factories and three Barracks pumping out Troopers and Combat Tanks like there was no tomorrow. Despite use of the infantry rock at midfield between my base and the smuggler base (which was well-placed, I might add), and even swarming missile tanks with Raiders, the passageway was much too narrow which caused some pathing issues until I blew up some walls, but while I was demolishing those, the smugglers came at me with a bunch of light vehicles and infantry, and to make matters worse, it seemed as soon as I finished a fight at mid-field with Harkonnen reinforcements, they'd already have more at the starport. Building up over and over to fight the same wave was unpleasant. I suspect your intent was to have the player build up a nice, big army and flood that base with everything, but I tend to attack in smaller groups while building up, and those smaller groups, I believe, should have done more damage than they actually did. And, to add insult to injury, after I blew up the damn thing, a couple of Harkonnen siege tanks pretty much one-shot the smuggler barracks, demolishing it and ending the mission in failure.

On a related note, part of the reason I don't like to include reinforcement spam in my own designs (with various potential exceptions) is on account of limited game mechanics. If I buff up the AI, give it several partners, make it target specific things, etc., the AIs will build stuff on their own and there are predictable breaks in their forces, like after you destroy their offensive, you know that's a good time to strike. Or if you bother their harvesters, you know it'll have an impact on how well they can strike out or defend themselves. The way it was on M5, it seemed I had to mass or die.

I think reinforcement spam can work well for a map if there's a catch to it, like it's pretty minor or only spawns under certain conditions or if it relents at some point later in the game, and is not infinite. For instance, the Atreides on S3V1 are the primary antagonists for the level, and they receive quite a lot of reinforcements early on, and then it stops. They also have two AIs, compared to the one Harkonnen AI. This results in a superior enemy whose great strength eventually degenerates to fair strength, and then you can push through. And even then, there's an infantry-only near their outpost, and lots of harvesters to harass! On S5V1 I make use of infinite reinforcements, but it's only one missile tank and two grenadiers. It can also be stopped by destroying the Harkonnen outpost, which is located in a somewhat outlying installation with three entrances, one of which is infantry-only. S2V1 makes use of reinforcements in order to prevent the player from progressing too quickly, like if they just build refineries, the Imperials are gonna roll over them. And, because of the defensible rocks in the middle of the map, and the extra reinforcements you'll receive if you lose some light vehicles, it helps to account for if the player is having trouble with those reinforcements... just not too much. S2V2 also makes use of infinite reinforcements, but it's a survival map, so naturally it'll build up 'til you can't hold out any longer, like M2.

That's just my two cents on reinforcement use. Take from it what you will :P Aside from that, the briefing takes an enjoyable, novel approach, and the occasional banter in the middle of levels, I'd say, makes 'em more interesting. Maybe it was just me, but I found the lack of names to be kinda odd. When "Harkonnen" is talking to me, I dunno who it is, a commander, the baron, just some random comms guy... might just be me though! The original game did it the same way, if I remember right. The other thing I found kinda weird was the perspective seeming to change during briefing. Like, for instance, for M1's briefing, our nameless mercenary protagonist says he wants to head north, he's the one behind the mission and all. In a later mission, like M5, it's like he's talking to someone else when he clarifies the objective to the player, like there's another commander who's been added in. I was kinda confused on who the protagonist really is and what I'm supposed to be doing in all of it lol

Edit: I forgot to include suggestions for M5 lol

My examples were just for how I'd fit reinforcements in to my own missions. How and, more importantly, why. For M5 if you want to keep the infinite starport reinforcements thing, I'd recommend using Intervals to have several types of reinforcements. For example:
R1 - 4 Combat Tanks, 2 Missile Tanks, 10000 start delay, 30000 interval
R2 - 3 Quads, 2 Siege Tanks, 20000 start delay, 30000 interval
R3 - 3 Missile Tanks, 1 Siege Tank, 2 Trikes, 30000 start delay, 30000 interval

Taking the above as an example, the Harkonnen will receive reinforcements every 10000 tics thanks to the start delay and intervals. Then just set the interval to occur 99999 times and it'll be pretty much infinite. I'm sure you already know how to do this, or about this sort of technique, but I figure I'd give an example anyway.

Other than that, I think once you blow up the Starport, the lose condition should change (if the map is meant to keep going) or shut off entirely (if you just need the little cinematic with the Ordos to happen first). If it changes, I think it should change to if the smugglers lose their whole base, rather than one building.

I hope that feedback helps you out, Cm! I look forward to trying the rest when I get the chance :D

Edited by Fey
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Posted (edited)

7 hours ago, djbaskan60 said:

Hi .Your idea is so beautiful. And story very nice.Betrayal is a surprise. I was excited. I did not expect. I have repeated it a few times. I accepted the betrayal. I like  your campaign.i am waiting for more difficult missions :))))really best for me your mods..Thank you again.

Thanks for playing!

 

3 hours ago, Fey said:

Ah, a twist ending! Was it supposed to say "Mission failed." at the end on purpose?

Not at all. If you lost all your buildings you fail the mission, but if you sell all the buildings when the Atreides gives you 30 seconds to surrender the mission is accomplised. If the time reachs zero you are getting killed by the Atreides (because you didn't surrender) and the mission again is failed.

Tell me exactly what happen and what did you did on your run.

3 hours ago, Fey said:

Mercenaries 04
For instance, if you build an outpost, you get infinite reinforcements

You already are receiving  infinite reinforcements every 6000 ticks, aren't you recieving them?

Their reinforcements have a condition to arrive, although the game didn't say anything about that.
I can increase a bit the time so their reinforcements are comming less frequently.

However, were you still using your modified version for this map and the others? because just for that you are making the campaign like x10 harder XD. I already cut the room available so 3-4 refs at most can be builded.
Also When I played this I did this order "windtrap - ref - barrack (and upgrade) - another ref and for there the rest), and I can still win. With you high price maybe you are building 2 refs because if try to follow this order you run out of money early.

3 hours ago, Fey said:

I had three Heavy Factories and three Barracks pumping out Troopers and Combat Tanks like there was no tomorrow.

Weird, I build 1 of each building and I think I beat the map at 30-35 minutes more or less (in real time). If you are still using the modified prices maybe that's a problem to play the map, because is slowing you down too much.

3 hours ago, Fey said:

On a related note, part of the reason I don't like to include reinforcement spam in my own designs (with various potential exceptions) is on account of limited game mechanics. If I buff up the AI, give it several partners, make it target specific things, etc., the AIs will build stuff on their own and there are predictable breaks in their forces, like after you destroy their offensive, you know that's a good time to strike.

Not really, I played your campaigns and sometimes:
a) Defeating 7 Attacking devastators (and the relatives numbers like 20 enemy combat tanks, same number for missile tanks, and other insanes attacks etc) and the enemy still have 4 or 5 more devastators (and tanks, and missile tanks...) in his base, so "after you destroy their offensive, you know that's a good time to strike" wasn't really the best time to strike on your campaigns.
b) Grouping myselft a big assault of 20 combat tanks, 15 missile tanks, etc etc... wasn't enough to defead enemies on your campaign, so I feel I need this line you said early:

3 hours ago, Fey said:

I suspect your intent was to have the player build up a nice, big army and flood that base with everything

This is exactly how I feel playing your maps xD. Mine require much less units to win than yours. 

Also, several partnets is not really the best either. You can defend an enemy attack, surviving the enemy big attack, then I counter attack only to getting destroyed bt the partner/s of that enemy; by the time I have more units ready, the first one is attacking again.

 

3 hours ago, Fey said:

eird was the perspective seeming to change during briefing. Like, for instance, for M1's briefing, our nameless mercenary protagonist says he wants to head north, he's the one behind the mission and all. In a later mission, like M5, it's like he's talking to someone else when he clarifies the objective to the player, like there's another commander who's been added in. I was kinda confused on who the protagonist really is and what I'm supposed to be doing in all of it lol

I am not gonna to lie. I suck at writing, and even more at creating names. So I go "westwood style" and move on. Also, "engrish".

3 hours ago, Fey said:

Other than that, I think once you blow up the Starport, the lose condition should change (if the map is meant to keep going) or shut off entirely (if you just need the little cinematic with the Ordos to happen first). If it changes, I think it should change to if the smugglers lose their whole base, rather than one building.

I was worried about this, that's I was waiting if someone gives me an indication of problems with this. I will look into it, although I only have 1 space left T_T, probably will remove the harverster remplacement for the other enemies which the player don't need to deal with.

Or maybe I add a new flag somewhere. If the objetive is destroyed, then the flag becomes true and doesn't really matter if all the smuggler's are murdered after.

The Harkonnen were amassing too much units on the starport? because the time between attacks is set to 3000, so everytime a delivery is given, they should attack quickly. I mean, one deliverie is every 5000%, so the five units he recieves, he send before another arrive. The other is 4444, so even with that they should be attacking at most with 3 combat tanks, 3 missile tanks and 3 siege tanks (not counting smugglers). I don't think you really need a very big group to defeat that wave. <-- probably playing at max speed is the reason why you barely have time to react.

Anyway: I always like to replay the campaign after several weeks, so I am not going to remember too much about the reinforcements I add and the other stuff, so I will react differently. If I find something too hard I will change things.

But just in case, just revert your prices to the original. If I remember your upgrades on the light factory was like 1000 credits or so. I am already toying with the original price so I limit the room or create early attacks to make the player to use money on units early instead 15 minutes of building only refineries before training a single trooper.

Oh, almost forgot to thank you for playing and for all the information.

Edited by Cm_blast
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2 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

Not at all. If you lost all your buildings you fail the mission, but if you sell all the buildings when the Atreides gives you 30 seconds to surrender the mission is accomplised. If the time reachs zero you are getting killed by the Atreides (because you didn't surrender) and the mission again is failed.

Tell me exactly what happen and what did you did on your run.

Oh wow. Yeah I built up a bunch of Light Infantry to begin with, and then when my Harvester returned the first time, I upgraded and started pumping out troopers. I used the walls as cover 'cause their tanks couldn't fire over 'em, and used a few troopers and mostly light infantry to take out the light vehicles. I even stayed out in the open with all infantry in formation and on guard mode, and they wrecked the Atreides forces. They'd also send Grenadiers with their Troopers and Light Infantry, which obviously was something left over from my mod, and that posed a serious threat. Aside from tanks potentially running over my guys, that is. I used my Harvester on occasion to run infantry over, but there was absolutely no way in hell I was going to survive 'til the win condition. Maybe the Atreides should demand surrender, and then go neutral once your buildings are sold or something? Ooh, yeah, they could go neutral and if you don't sell, they kill you, and if you do, the surrender condition occurs?

I also remember the Harkonnen selling all their stuff and heading up to where I presume an MCV is hidden on the cliffs. Since they depart, perhaps you could make it so they're neutral to you (but you're still allied with them) so that you don't see where they go?

2 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

You already are receiving  infinite reinforcements every 6000 ticks, aren't you recieving them?

Their reinforcements have a condition to arrive, although the game didn't say anything about that.
I can increase a bit the time so their reinforcements are comming less frequently.

However, were you still using your modified version for this map and the others? because just for that you are making the campaign like x10 harder XD. I already cut the room available so 3-4 refs at most can be builded.
Also When I played this I did this order "windtrap - ref - barrack (and upgrade) - another ref and for there the rest), and I can still win. With you high price maybe you are building 2 refs because if try to follow this order you run out of money early.

Yeahhhh I should probably remove the mod before playing other campaigns ._. It just screws up the intended balance. I should go through again normally; I was just being lazy lol

I was indeed receiving infinite reinforcements for... the fourth map is the one we're talking about, right? My suggestion about having conditions apply to infinite reinforcements was for a potential change, not something already in place. I think it could give the player a little more incentive to do this or that.

I didn't look through the map files (to avoid spoilers), so I didn't really know anything about the trigger. I think it would be a good idea to increase the time between their reinforcements, or at least give a hint about where to disable their reinforcements! And, perhaps, put whatever target you need to destroy in a proxy base. That can help generate momentum, and momentum is something I like :D

Actually, that's exactly what I did. Even on normal difficulty, I only could afford two refineries. I still managed to pump out quads, take out a bunch of their harvesters, and break through into their base, but I suppose it would have gone much faster without the inappropriate mod. Were the Atreides supposed to attack more often? It kinda felt like they didn't do too much on that map. I blasted through the wall on the north side of the Ordos base and took out all three of their Refineries, then finished them off.

2 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

Weird, I build 1 of each building and I think I beat the map at 30-35 minutes more or less (in real time). If you are still using the modified prices maybe that's a problem to play the map, because is slowing you down too much.

Hmm... and you're playing on less-than-fastest speed, right? I guess that sounds about right. I may have been a little short on units when I attacked, but the modified prices don't apply to certain units, like Combat Tanks. They're the same build speed and Solaris value as the original. I also had two refineries and a bunch of harvesters, economy was a-okay and I didn't get insufficient funds. Might just be the mod's other tweaks screwing with things, like Siege Tanks doing slightly boosted damage to heavy armor, resulting in very weak Ordos tanks. Grenadiers are also a factor. They don't do much to tanks, but they slaughter infantry like crazy, which was bad news for my Troopers while they were trying to demolish the wall.

3 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

Not really, I played your campaigns and sometimes:

a) Defeating 7 Attacking devastators (and the relatives numbers like 20 enemy combat tanks, same number for missile tanks, and other insanes attacks etc) and the enemy still have 4 or 5 more devastators (and tanks, and missile tanks...) in his base, so "after you destroy their offensive, you know that's a good time to strike" wasn't really the best time to strike on your campaigns.
b) Grouping myselft a big assault of 20 combat tanks, 15 missile tanks, etc etc... wasn't enough to defead enemies on your campaign, so I feel I need this line you said early:

Wow XD So I guess it's a matter of perspective? Now that's amusing :D I have a very aggressive sort of playstyle, lots of early scouting and constant harassment while building up more in the base. Sometimes my head's just not in it and I can't keep up with what I want to do, but a good example would be my vid run of S3V2. I haven't done the editing for it yet, so it's raw footage - not cropped, no music, no commentary, no briefing, etc. Despite that, you can get a very clear image of the difference! I'll link it below.

On later levels with combat tanks and such, I usually send injured tanks back home for repairs as often as I can. The repaired tanks plus the stuff I've been building in the meantime means I come back with an even stronger force. It's not the easiest way to do things on Ordos, but it's something I occasionally do. Another strategy is having two groups of units you swap out, one gets repaired and the other one has already been repaired. Send it out, it takes damage and casualties, bring 'em back and take the first group out again. Of course while adding everything you've been pumping out of your Heavy Factory in the meantime!

On S9V2, for instance, I built up as much as possible with the very generous amount of starting credits we get and obliterated the base to the north as quickly as possible. I also captured one of the buildings up top to drop some concrete, and assisted Durant's defenses with missile turrets in addition to combat tanks. Once my allies built up, they took huge amounts of forces to enemy territory, so I attacked in unison with them. They took out a lot of core structures while I prioritized threats like turrets or tanks.

S3V2 vid run raw footage:

Spoiler

This run was done on Hard difficulty, on S3V2 hard mode (Harkonnen and Atreides are both enemies), on fastest speed in about twenty-four minutes real time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vozkMyFkEM

There is a restart at the beginning because when I start a new game, I cannot start recording right away. I start recording, then hit restart in order to get the entire game in one clip. This will be removed in post-production. Because it's raw footage, I also haven't inserted any commentary, so I'll list some highlights here:

00:07 - I go scouting. Two raiders, two unit groups, and they go as far as I can take them.
01:20 - Scouts come together and I start patrolling around to uncover the last bits I feel safe uncovering, and to pick off the occasional enemy unit.
01:55 - First Atreides attack. Durant is defensive on this map, so he tends to hang around the base and let you take care of everything else.
02:08 - Pick off a trooper, see a bunch more coming down. I'll let them aggro onto Durant's units before I swarm 'em.
03:35 - I get some grenadiers behind the turret. Grenadiers make excellent support units alongside tanks or turrets! Quads too, on occasion.
04:35 - My first attack. There're only about two minutes in real time before the Harkonnen arrive to kick my butt, so I've got to make this count.
05:10 - I proceed on to the enemy proxy base after making it across midfield. I try to counter the Atreides response appropriately - raiders chew up infantry, troopers blow up quads - and I manage to raze the whole base.
06:20 - Harkonnen forces have arrived. They have quite a lot of units, including tanks, and I don't want any of that right now. I'm gonna keep hitting the Atreides, when I get the chance.

I continue to build up for the next few minutes. I upgrade my Light Factory, get maximum production speed for all military facilities, secure Durant's other turrets with more grenadiers, and occasionally help fend off Atreides or Harkonnen forces. I don't want any of the turrets to go down, or defense will be significantly harder.

09:20 - It's about that time to move out again. I secure the perimeter of my base real quick, then head on over to bother the Atreides some more.
11:00 - I run into turrets in front of the main Atreides base, but it's nothing the troopers I've amassed can't handle.
12:00 - I've breached the base perimeter, and now I need to take out as many targets as possible. Like before, I cover my heavy-hitting infantry with quick, swarming light vehicles while they do their job. Infantry with my mod will patch themselves up over time if you allow them to rest, but I had no time for a hit and run, so I kept going 'til I couldn't anymore. It's a pity I didn't take down any of their refineries, but at least I managed to take out two barracks, two light factories, a repair pad, and their construction yard!
12:45 - Those quads actually manage to take out a refinery. Nevertheless, I return my focus to my base so I can build up against the Harkonnen.
13:48 - The Harkonnen set out to attack me. Grenadiers, troopers, and a swarm of raiders do the trick.
14:13 - Now it's my turn. They have a lot of stuff at their base, but I stunt their production by destroying the barracks and light factory right away.
15:25 - And once again. I destroy the barracks they rebuilt along with a turret and their heavy factory, but the debris kills my infantry. Really bad RNG there. Since I didn't have any infantry to support, I sent the light vehicles at economical targets. I take down a silo and one harvester.
16:35 - Third time's the charm. I have less units, but they're all armed with rockets, minus a few light infantry mixed in with the troopers. I use my quads to try and block the harvester from running over my troopers, but it doesn't work. Despite that, I still take out both their refineries!
17:25 - Alright, last one. I send a bunch of units out to try and finish off the Harkonnen.
17:45 - Unfortunately, they berserk and sell all of their structures. They then send everything they've got at me or the Atreides. I managed to get my light vehicles away, but my infantry were doomed. With help from Durant and a little bit of Atreides, I manage to fend off their final attack from the north base entrance. This is one of those moments you see the power of grenadiers and think, "Damn. Why don't I use these guys more often?"
18:30 - Base defended. Now it's time to finish the Atreides, just as soon as I secure the perimeter and take out the last Harkonnen unit.
19:35 - Back to the Atreides base again. The Atreides still have some functional barracks somewhere in their base, so they send plenty of light infantry, troopers, and grenadiers my way. I blow through the concrete wall with my troopers and take out some of their power while my raiders cover their asses, but my forces are eventually whittled down. I manage to take out four wind traps, two heavy factories, and a refinery, but that stupid harvester ran right over my troopers and their infantry finished my raiders.
21:20 - Oh, well. I've got a lot more waiting back at base, so I get ready to move 'em out again.
22:05 - Their last production structures seem to be near those infantry-only cliff walls. I try to get a good surround with the raiders around the barracks while I use my troopers to take out the turret. It works out.
22:30 - That's all their production. Now to just finish off the rest of their stuff.
23:35 - Was that all their harvesters? Seems it was since they get a new one. That only happens when they're all out, after all.
24:00 - Victory.

Hopefully that sheds some light on how I do things, and therefore explains my point of view in regard to my own design choices :D Otherwise, I'd love to know what you think of how that game went. Trying to keep it going for the whole campaign. lol

 

3 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

This is exactly how I feel playing your maps xD. Mine require much less units to win than yours. 

Also, several partnets is not really the best either. You can defend an enemy attack, surviving the enemy big attack, then I counter attack only to getting destroyed bt the partner/s of that enemy; by the time I have more units ready, the first one is attacking again.

I suppose I will have to try them without the mod! I didn't realize how much it could screw things up lol

Oh yeah, that's a pretty good point. What I meant was, with reinforcements, there's nothing you can really do about it, you know? It drops down on a trigger and you have to deal with the aftermath. When unit construction is left solely or mostly up to the AI, the player's strategies can vary more and have greater impact because the AI's functions are impacted by the player's choices. You can kill harvesters until they can barely afford their army, but you can't shoot down a reinforcement carryall. You know?

3 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

I am not gonna to lie. I suck at writing, and even more at creating names. So I go "westwood style" and move on. Also, "engrish".

Practice makes perfect :D But if you don't want to, that's your choice, and that's fine. I was just curious!

3 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

I was worried about this, that's I was waiting if someone gives me an indication of problems with this. I will look into it, although I only have 1 space left T_T, probably will remove the harverster remplacement for the other enemies which the player don't need to deal with.

Or maybe I add a new flag somewhere. If the objetive is destroyed, then the flag becomes true and doesn't really matter if all the smuggler's are murdered after.

The Harkonnen were amassing too much units on the starport? because the time between attacks is set to 3000, so everytime a delivery is given, they should attack quickly. I mean, one deliverie is every 5000%, so the five units he recieves, he send before another arrive. The other is 4444, so even with that they should be attacking at most with 3 combat tanks, 3 missile tanks and 3 siege tanks (not counting smugglers). I don't think you really need a very big group to defeat that wave. <-- probably playing at max speed is the reason why you barely have time to react.

Anyway: I always like to replay the campaign after several weeks, so I am not going to remember too much about the reinforcements I add and the other stuff, so I will react differently. If I find something too hard I will change things.

But just in case, just revert your prices to the original. If I remember your upgrades on the light factory was like 1000 credits or so. I am already toying with the original price so I limit the room or create early attacks to make the player to use money on units early instead 15 minutes of building only refineries before training a single trooper.

Oh, almost forgot to thank you for playing and for all the information.

The event data limit is easily the biggest cockblock in Dune 2000 maps like this. I feel your pain :(

I'd say the max speed detail is a negligible factor. It's what I'm used to - just have a look at the S3V2 footage under the spoiler :D They seemed to come with a little too much every time, not something I could fight my way past without building up in my base a bunch before moving out, you know? Granted, there's nothing wrong with that, but it just felt like that kind of map where you want to go right in and blow up the thing. Just kept getting pushed back.

Yeah, that's always good. Thankfully, my memory is crap for certain things, so it's helpful while testing the D2k stuff.

And that's a good policy. Pretty much what I did with S2V1, except on a timer and not a Spice threshold. The Spice threshold does summon considerable reinforcements though, so despite very few Imperial reinforcements, they have an appropriate impact on what you do with your Spice.

Hey, no problem, man. It's my pleasure. Always fun to work on new projects, give or get feedback, you know. :)

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Posted (edited)

14 hours ago, Fey said:

Maybe the Atreides should demand surrender, and then go neutral once your buildings are sold or something? Ooh, yeah, they could go neutral and if you don't sell, they kill you, and if you do, the surrender condition occurs?

And that's exactly what I did :P. Probably you died to soon or you game is messed up.

The final non-stop attack starts at 17500. 2000 ticks later the Atreides scream "Ceasefire!" and become ally with the player.
A few seconds later the Atreides tell you to surrender, and gives you 30 seconds. Sell all your buildings and mission accomplished; don't do anything and the Atreides resume the attack until killing the last men of you.

14 hours ago, Fey said:

I also remember the Harkonnen selling all their stuff and heading up to where I presume an MCV is hidden on the cliffs. Since they depart, perhaps you could make it so they're neutral to you (but you're still allied with them) so that you don't see where they go?

It's just a light infantry. The Harkonnen try to attack him and that's it.
But now that you said it, you are right, I will turn them into neutral or something. In my multiple tests I was playing with the map revealed, so didn't notice that the map was being revealed by the Harkonnen when they are suppose to left you behind. I will change that.

 

14 hours ago, Fey said:

I didn't look through the map files (to avoid spoilers), so I didn't really know anything about the trigger. I think it would be a good idea to increase the time between their reinforcements, or at least give a hint about where to disable their reinforcements! And, perhaps, put whatever target you need to destroy in a proxy base. That can help generate momentum, and momentum is something I like :D

Yeah, I know, I just make those infinite, and after playing several times I added that condition like "the map is almost beaten, so no more attacks". It's better if at least I mention it, so the player can focus that building to have some advantage.
I didn't want to make the reinforcements to fully stops until the game is almost beat, keep in mind that the Ordos have no way to attack you. Without those reinforcements the player could go idle and never loose.

14 hours ago, Fey said:

Actually, that's exactly what I did. Even on normal difficulty, I only could afford two refineries. I still managed to pump out quads, take out a bunch of their harvesters, and break through into their base, but I suppose it would have gone much faster without the inappropriate mod. Were the Atreides supposed to attack more often? It kinda felt like they didn't do too much on that map. I blasted through the wall on the north side of the Ordos base and took out all three of their Refineries, then finished them off.

No, The Atreides is more a "We distract the enemy, you do your stuff". You can't make the Atreides being too ofensive or they will win by themselves, so when you destroy the Harversters the Ordos are wasting his queue on those units.

Also, The Ordos have plenty of siege tanks over the base. That's mortal againts all your units, so the Atreides will bring a bit of help with their tanks and missile tanks.

14 hours ago, Fey said:

Hmm... and you're playing on less-than-fastest speed, right? I guess that sounds about right. I may have been a little short on units when I attacked, but the modified prices don't apply to certain units, like Combat Tanks. They're the same build speed and Solaris value as the original. I also had two refineries and a bunch of harvesters, economy was a-okay and I didn't get insufficient funds. Might just be the mod's other tweaks screwing with things, like Siege Tanks doing slightly boosted damage to heavy armor, resulting in very weak Ordos tanks. Grenadiers are also a factor. They don't do much to tanks, but they slaughter infantry like crazy, which was bad news for my Troopers while they were trying to demolish the wall.

I play at real-time speed. If the game show a countdown of "30", 30 seconds will pass in real time.

And probably yes. Because your mod the siege tanks and grenadiers are dealing too much damage to you.

Also, in this map the Harkonnen aren't wandering the smuggler base, so defeating the defending smugglers (which only have quads while you have tanks) shouldn't be too hard (just a couple of tanks or quads to defeat the siege tank in the entrance, and then troopers to take both turrets.

14 hours ago, Fey said:

On later levels with combat tanks and such, I usually send injured tanks back home for repairs as often as I can. The repaired tanks plus the stuff I've been building in the meantime means I come back with an even stronger force. It's not the easiest way to do things on Ordos, but it's something I occasionally do. Another strategy is having two groups of units you swap out, one gets repaired and the other one has already been repaired. Send it out, it takes damage and casualties, bring 'em back and take the first group out again. Of course while adding everything you've been pumping out of your Heavy Factory in the meantime!

Yeah, but when you are dealing with 20 enemy combat tanks and 7 devastators if you retreat your ally will die for sure xD.

 

14 hours ago, Fey said:

they took huge amounts of forces to enemy territory, so I attacked in unison with them

For example, this never happen to me. They build a base, they almost get destroyed, They almost finish to build his base, then attacked with a small force against that group of 4 turrets and 2 windtraps, and because of that they dragged the attention of aaaallll the Imperial units protecting their multiple bases, and from there an insane group of defending units (only the patrolling-defending ones) of Imperials and Who knows who else killed all the units I have in front on my ally's base and they kill most of my ally's units too.

From there one attack of one of them was enough to destroy 80% of my ally base. With all the time they take to rebuild stuff I did most of the level by myself.

 

14 hours ago, Fey said:

Practice makes perfect :D But if you don't want to, that's your choice, and that's fine. I was just curious!

plus changing my mind xD. In the initial idea that mission 5 was suposse to be working for the Atreides. They didn't get involve because they didn't want to fight 2 enemies at the same time (being one the Emperor itself).

But when I was writing makes no sense the Atreides sending you alone and changed it into that.

But that's it, Most the time the writing adjust to the mission I did instead in reverse. This isn't the "Ok, the story said this, so the map should be this way" but "ok, I did this crazy idea here, What I am going to write to explain the reasons and make sense?".

14 hours ago, Fey said:

The event data limit is easily the biggest cockblock in Dune 2000 maps like this. I feel your pain :(

Fortunately I think with a single flag becoming true is enough to fix this.
To be fair, we (both of us) are using spices to create in-game cutscenes, so is part of our fault xD.

14 hours ago, Fey said:

I'd say the max speed detail is a negligible factor

Totally :P.

Edited by Cm_blast
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2 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

And that's exactly what I did :P. Probably you died to soon or you game is messed up.

The final non-stop attack starts at 17500. 2000 ticks later the Atreides scream "Ceasefire!" and become ally with the player.
A few seconds later the Atreides tell you to surrender, and gives you 30 seconds. Sell all your buildings and mission accomplished; don't do anything and the Atreides resume the attack until killing the last men of you.

Hmm. Yeah, gotta be just me.

2 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

It's just a light infantry. The Harkonnen try to attack him and that's it.

But now that you said it, you are right, I will turn them into neutral or something. In my multiple tests I was playing with the map revealed, so didn't notice that the map was being revealed by the Harkonnen when they are suppose to left you behind. I will change that.

Yee.

2 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

Yeah, I know, I just make those infinite, and after playing several times I added that condition like "the map is almost beaten, so no more attacks". It's better if at least I mention it, so the player can focus that building to have some advantage.

I didn't want to make the reinforcements to fully stops until the game is almost beat, keep in mind that the Ordos have no way to attack you. Without those reinforcements the player could go idle and never loose.

Oh? I didn't realize the Ordos had no production. I guess they felt pretty entrenched behind siege tanks and turrets, so I thought they did and the reinforcements were excessive. Very well, but perhaps you could relocate those reinforcements so they arrive in the Ordos base, rather than oddly north of our base? Or if you want to keep it near the player, could randomize it with multiple intervals and reinforcements...

...wait, they do have a barracks and light factory. What do you mean, they don't have any way to attack me? Do they prioritize the Atreides or something? Do they refrain from attacking with normal units and simply defend their base?

2 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

No, The Atreides is more a "We distract the enemy, you do your stuff". You can't make the Atreides being too ofensive or they will win by themselves, so when you destroy the Harversters the Ordos are wasting his queue on those units.

Also, The Ordos have plenty of siege tanks over the base. That's mortal againts all your units, so the Atreides will bring a bit of help with their tanks and missile tanks.

Oh, yeah. I guess under normal conditions it'd work out just fine; my mod ruined the pacing. Can't be lazy about taking it off lol

2 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

I play at real-time speed. If the game show a countdown of "30", 30 seconds will pass in real time.

And probably yes. Because your mod the siege tanks and grenadiers are dealing too much damage to you.

Also, in this map the Harkonnen aren't wandering the smuggler base, so defeating the defending smugglers (which only have quads while you have tanks) shouldn't be too hard (just a couple of tanks or quads to defeat the siege tank in the entrance, and then troopers to take both turrets.

Probably another mod issue then. Disregard my comment :P

2 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

Yeah, but when you are dealing with 20 enemy combat tanks and 7 devastators if you retreat your ally will die for sure xD.

Naww! I defended the Ordos and mercenaries on S9V2 just fine. I did the latter strategy where half my tanks were at the repair pad / heavy factory, and the other half were up in front of the turrets. Each time one group took considerable damage, I sent it back and swapped in the other group, plus any additional tanks from the heavy factory. Tanks on their own won't do much good for sure, but I had rocket turrets and troopers on the infantry rock while the tanks were out front to assist. Troopers are INSANELY deadly to devastators, it turns out, and as long as I didn't let them get picked off by siege tanks, trikes, or grenadiers, they provided excellent supporting fire if any tanks tried to get closer to my turrets.

2 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

For example, this never happen to me. They build a base, they almost get destroyed, They almost finish to build his base, then attacked with a small force against that group of 4 turrets and 2 windtraps, and because of that they dragged the attention of aaaallll the Imperial units protecting their multiple bases, and from there an insane group of defending units (only the patrolling-defending ones) of Imperials and Who knows who else killed all the units I have in front on my ally's base and they kill most of my ally's units too.

From there one attack of one of them was enough to destroy 80% of my ally base. With all the time they take to rebuild stuff I did most of the level by myself.

Damn. It makes them sound really incompetent lol

On my run of S9V2, my allies actually did most of the work. I took the base to the north with a very aggressive offense, then switched to full defensive strategy, and once they could hold their own, I received a crapload of help against all the enemy bases. No exaggeration. I guess the solution would be to give them better support while they build up? :P If you fail to capture an Imperial structure before their base just north of your position goes down, you can always send up an MCV to drop some concrete. Then you can build turrets, and those really help when your tanks can't handle the incoming units on their own.

2 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

plus changing my mind xD. In the initial idea that mission 5 was suposse to be working for the Atreides. They didn't get involve because they didn't want to fight 2 enemies at the same time (being one the Emperor itself).

But when I was writing makes no sense the Atreides sending you alone and changed it into that.

But that's it, Most the time the writing adjust to the mission I did instead in reverse. This isn't the "Ok, the story said this, so the map should be this way" but "ok, I did this crazy idea here, What I am going to write to explain the reasons and make sense?".

Both fine strategies. I do both, myself.

2 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

Fortunately I think with a single flag becoming true is enough to fix this.

To be fair, we (both of us) are using spices to create in-game cutscenes, so is part of our fault xD.

XD We make do with what we've got just fine, I'd say.

2 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

Totally :P.

Hey! Cmon, you saw the S3V2 vid under the spoiler, right? I do just fine at max speed! :O

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Fey said:

...wait, they do have a barracks and light factory. What do you mean, they don't have any way to attack me? Do they prioritize the Atreides or something?

Exactly this. They will attack the Atreides always. They build like normal, but everytime they are ready to attack they go against the Atreides. The player is ignored in this situation.

2 hours ago, Fey said:

Naww! I defended the Ordos and mercenaries on S9V2 just fine. I did the latter strategy where half my tanks were at the repair pad / heavy factory, and the other half were up in front of the turrets. Each time one group took considerable damage, I sent it back and swapped in the other group, plus any additional tanks from the heavy factory. Tanks on their own won't do much good for sure, but I had rocket turrets and troopers on the infantry rock while the tanks were out front to assist. Troopers are INSANELY deadly to devastators

Yes, if they manage to survive the other 100 enemies xD. Like i said, I needed to deal with:
a) all the defense units from the imperial (plus danger-zone so building more units like crazy).
b) all the defense units from the Fremen (as Imperial) - (plus the same)
c) Some Atreides not to far from there.
d) a Harkonnen attack.

4 enemies was too much for me :P.

2 hours ago, Fey said:

Damn. It makes them sound really incompetent lol

It's because the way it happens.

They attack that small area. That dragged the attention of those two big groups (because that area is very near of their danger-zone). All those units (which they were only defending) remains still, eventually they will return to their base, but my ally decided to send a new unit before that happens (probably because the constatly small skirmish with the Atreides), so all those units went a bit more down, and more down, and at the end all those units were just doing that: defending... on top of the Mercenary base.

They didn't destroy buildings, but they kill my units and my ally units, so when the next attack appears, I barely could saving him with the units I had waiting in my base.

Maybe I took too much to defeat the first base and because of that those two imperials had tons of units? probably.

2 hours ago, Fey said:

Hey! Cmon, you saw the S3V2 vid under the spoiler, right? I do just fine at max speed! :O

I mean. I create a reinforcement to repeat every 7 minutes. That's enough time to group your army, select it by creating 2 groups, moving near the enemy base, start the attack by only selecting a few troopers, and then marching with everything, and by the time the new reinforcement is there I have that base half destroyed, so I defend that reinforcement, group the new army I build on those 7 minutes, attack and win.

But at max speed you have only 3.5 minutes to do all of that, making you thing that the enemy is not giving you time to rest.

Edited by Cm_blast
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Posted (edited)

39 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

Exactly this. They will attack the Atreides always. They build like normal, but everytime they are ready to attack they go against the Atreides. The player is ignored in this situation.

Oh. Yeah, okay.

39 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

Yes, if they manage to survive the other 100 enemies xD. Like i said, I needed to deal with:
a) all the defense units from the imperial (plus danger-zone so building more units like crazy).
b) all the defense units from the Fremen (as Imperial) - (plus the same)
c) Some Atreides not to far from there.
d) a Harkonnen attack.

4 enemies was too much for me :P.

XD That's fair enough. I was able to ensure their survival despite those factors, and that's how I did it, so. ^^

39 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

It's because the way it happens.

They attack that small area. That dragged the attention of those two big groups (because that area is very near of their danger-zone). All those units (which they were only defending) remains still, eventually they will return to their base, but my ally decided to send a new unit before that happens (probably because the constatly small skirmish with the Atreides), so all those units went a bit more down, and more down, and at the end all those units were just doing that: defending... on top of the Mercenary base.

They didn't destroy buildings, but they kill my units and my ally units, so when the next attack appears, I barely could saving him with the units I had waiting in my base.

Maybe I took too much to defeat the first base and because of that those two imperials had tons of units? probably.

Possibly. The tougher enemy AIs do not begin mass production or attacks until quite a while into the game, and by that point I've usually leveled the Imperial base to the north. The sooner, the better. Extremely aggressive strategies are extremely beneficial at the beginning of S9V2 :P

39 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

I mean. I create a reinforcement to repeat every 7 minutes. That's enough time to group your army, select it by creating 2 groups, moving near the enemy base, start the attack by only selecting a few troopers, and then marching with everything, and by the time the new reinforcement is there I have that base half destroyed, so I defend that reinforcement, group the new army I build on those 7 minutes, attack and win.

But at max speed you have only 3.5 minutes to do all of that, making you thing that the enemy is not giving you time to rest.

In the S3V2 raw footage linked a couple of posts ago, I was moving out to take an Atreides proxy base with a bunch of raiders and troopers only four and a half minutes in. And, excluding the period of recuperation between 06:20 and 09:20, I was either out attacking things or only about a minute off from moving out again. Thus, you can see my macro is a-okay, even while I'm busy doing micro for the attack on the enemy base.

Therefore, it wasn't the speed that was making me think that, I assure you. The reinforcements were just painfully frequent. This is indubitably because my mod limited my momentum on this map, meaning I had less units to spare, but it still feels pretty quick regardless, at least to me. I think some variation in the reinforcements would help a lot, and maybe a slightly longer timer.

Edited by Fey
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Posted (edited)

I was pointing in the case that both of us plays exactly in the same way; in this case I will get advantage because I have double time to do all the things.

But anyway. I need to replay the whole thing, more fresh and maybe will delay a bit the carryall reinforcements in the mission 4, and well, in the starport map The only reason I added the second loop delivery was because by that point the player have everything (buildings and economy) and through that with only the first group of deliveries the map were going to be too easy, lol.

Probably I'll change the part when a second delivery is added for a single one time big delivery, so after the Harkonnen send the "final ultimate wave", then is time to finish the mission. 

I'll decide when I play it.

Edited by Cm_blast
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Good ideas, and yeah, when you get around to it.

I recognize that you have more time to react, but like I said... you know what I said. The reaction time difference is irrelevant to my point about M5.

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Posted (edited)

Probably we are here talking about this and that, but since were both playing with different rules this discussion has no purpose. If your siege tanks are doing damage to all your units (tanks included), well, that's not expected. If the smuggler grenadiers are destroying easily all your infantry and light vehicles, well, that's not expected either, so maybe you have 2 enemy units dealing to you tons of damage when 1 doesn't even exist and the other is there to kill your soldier/L.vehicles, but it that unit fail to do that, then all those soldiers/L.vehicles surpass any Harkonnen combat/missile tank easily.

 

Edited by Cm_blast
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1 hour ago, Cm_blast said:

Probably we are here talking about this and that, but since were both playing with different rules this discussion has no purpose. If your siege tanks are doing damage to all your units (tanks included), well, that's not expected. If the smuggler grenadiers are destroying easily all your infantry and light vehicles, well, that's not expected either, so maybe you have 2 enemy units dealing to you tons of damage when 1 doesn't even exist and the other is there to kill your soldier/L.vehicles, but it that unit fail to do that, then all those soldiers/L.vehicles surpass any Harkonnen combat/missile tank easily.

Ye. Still interesting though!

The siege tanks do not counter combat tanks, but they do sliiiightly more damage to heavier armor, and slightly more damage in general. Turns out it makes a huge difference in the long run lol

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Fey said:

Ye. Still interesting though!

The siege tanks do not counter combat tanks, but they do sliiiightly more damage to heavier armor, and slightly more damage in general. Turns out it makes a huge difference in the long run lol

Indeed, interesting.

Not saying they counter tanks, but for example the very first version of this map was about 2 of each tank in the delivery (instead only 1 siege tank), and the first Harkonnen attack was really strong, since ignoring the other combat/missile tanks got me killed mine tanks, and trying to kill 2 sieges with only troopers was hard (I manage to survive, but the next wave with 2 sieges attacking me is when the game was lost).

And this is about the original siege tank, so your Augmented version maybe is making more trouble that intended.

By the way, In that video are you playing on hard or changing the price of things? (comparing to the last time I played with your modified files). Like the quad costing 500, the barracks cost 315 credits and the harverster 1250. I mean, I remember the harverster costing 1000 credits.

That positioning 4:52 XD; you seem to use that positioning on military buildings a lot, at least in the final missions :P.

Edit: By the way. I forgot to tell that I found the line that affect when the AI attacks, since they never attack at the same time you have set.

Is the line "Timing random porcentaje", set by default at 25. This is what I think it does:
You set the First attack for a AI to attack at 10.000 ticks.
25 (25% of 10.000) is 2500, so the AI will attack in a random interval from 8750 to 11250 ticks.

I did one test with the first attack set to 1000 ticks, another AI with 2000 ticks, and a third with 3000, with the three of them with the "Timing random porcentaje" set to 1; set the crono to show 1000 ticks in a loop (so the time reach zero at 1000 2000 and 3000 ticks). And those three Ais were attacking when the time reach exactly zero.

I discovered this very late, so I just went safe to avoid to broke the campaign when was almost done. just to be safe I used 10 in a couple of Ais, but at least in the last mission one AI is set to "1" and attack at the exact time I have set. So far is always happening.

So if you are interested you can try to do your own tests.

Edited by Cm_blast
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18 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

Indeed, interesting.

Not saying they counter tanks, but for example the very first version of this map was about 2 of each tank in the delivery (instead only 1 siege tank), and the first Harkonnen attack was really strong, since ignoring the other combat/missile tanks got me killed mine tanks, and trying to kill 2 sieges with only troopers was hard (I manage to survive, but the next wave with 2 sieges attacking me is when the game was lost).

Oh, pardon me, I must have misunderstood.

The missile tanks are best dealt with by light infantry or raiders, of course, and I didn't have too many of those. Despite that, they didn't pose TOO much of a threat because I swarmed the crap out of them and didn't let them get more than, like, one missile off. I vaguely recall some indignation after a siege tank I didn't notice murdered a whole squad of troopers. x_x

20 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

And this is about the original siege tank, so your Augmented version maybe is making more trouble that intended.

No doubt about that. They can still be picked off easily by combat tanks or quads, but they're a priority target for very good reason. Glass cannons, so to speak - heavy damage, easily breakable.

22 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

By the way, In that video are you playing on hard or changing the price of things? (comparing to the last time I played with your modified files). Like the quad costing 500, the barracks cost 315 credits and the harverster 1250. I mean, I remember the harverster costing 1000 credits.

I was playing on hard. Also did the map's unique hard mode (Harkonnen becomes enemy as well), played on fastest, and completed in about 24 mins ^^

I'm happy with this run lol

The hard prices are... well, hard. Normal feels the best, I think, as it very well should, but I feel compelled to play on hard for most occasions :) I also kinda needed to for testing, and I plan to do it again for a video series... when I get around to that. If you ever try these on hard, you'll definitely feel the difference! On the plus side, upgrade prices remain the same on all difficulties, so that won't be any hassle on hard. And, if you do, I'd love to hear how the levels go :D

28 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

That positioning 4:52 XD; you seem to use that positioning on military buildings a lot, at least in the final missions :P.

Oh, that one? Raiders' weapons are ineffective compared to troopers' weapons against quads, so I tried to keep the raiders out of the way and I made my troopers stop so they'd fire on the quad. It only got one missile off :D In regard to what you said about positioning, you mean where I send troopers at priority targets and have the raiders or whatever else I have with me chew up anything that comes their way? It's very effective! I was being pretty inefficient on this run with my infantry. As you know, they patch themselves up if you give them time to rest, but I wasn't giving them any; I just kept taking out as much stuff as I could. If I were to do it differently under the same circumstances, I could send the troopers to some corner and cover them while they heal.

The raider / trooper combo is a highly favored one. Occasionally the enemy AI will use that combination, as one of the AIs does on S3V2, but I do this myself as well. On occasion, I don't even upgrade the light factory! Quads are very useful harassment units, especially versus harvesters and siege tanks, and I do love them when I use them (final attack on the Harkonnen base, and one refinery down after first attack against the main Atreides base), but for typical base penetration, quads tend to be eaten by turrets, combat tanks, and other defensive units, so I prefer different units for that. Quads are still really useful for hitting turrets over walls very quickly, though, whereas troopers require an escort and stuff, so they may be the best choice in certain situations. And, quads can be pretty safely paired with grenadiers, whereas raiders take much higher damage from their lobbed projectiles. I actually use this combination a couple of times during this mission, despite also having raiders in the party, but I use grenadiers in very small numbers and they provide nice support without being too deadly. That's the best way to use grenadiers, I think - in small numbers, supporting combat tanks or quads. Raiders are more resistant to turret fire and are perfectly capable of taking down most threats to trooper waves, except for siege tanks. Siege tanks deal extremely heavy damage to raiders and raiders' weapons are ineffective against them. Doesn't stop me from killing siege tanks with raiders, but it's always a precision strike with a whole swarm of raiders. And I even try to get close to it so it damages itself.

Ironically, I had to reverse the order during the attack on the Atreides proxy base. Once the gun turrets out front were down, they sent a few light vehicles my way, so I had the troopers cover my raiders. They had quite a few grenadiers down there too but you may have noticed I pick them off ASAP whenever I see them. I managed to fend off their defenses and the assistance headed down from the main base with that careful unit positioning and target priority.

A better example of typical positioning would be at, uhh... 19:35. I initially send my raiders right in to hit their power, but they have a lot of infantry, so I pull them back to cover my troopers while they blow through the wall and take out the power. That was a fun little attack, nothing but infantry headed my way and a bunch of buildings to raze. Pity about the end of it though. That harvester was a jerk.

I included timestamps and comments below the spoiler in addition to the link if you want to see anything more of what I have to say about that run :P

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Fey said:

No doubt about that. They can still be picked off easily by combat tanks or quads, but they're a priority target for very good reason. Glass cannons, so to speak - heavy damage, easily breakable.

In this campaign you are the "weak" mercenary. So the sieges are strong just because the most of your army are soldiers and L.vehicles, at least in the early missions. That's their job here :P.

1 hour ago, Fey said:

I was playing on hard. Also did the map's unique hard mode (Harkonnen becomes enemy as well), played on fastest, and completed in about 24 mins ^^

So that's 48 minutes in real time, more that took me to beat my mission 5 xD.

1 hour ago, Fey said:

If you ever try these on hard, you'll definitely feel the difference! On the plus side, upgrade prices remain the same on all difficulties, so that won't be any hassle on hard. And, if you do, I'd love to hear how the levels go :D

I know that in hard prices are bigger (and builds slower) but upgrades remain still (same with easy), but no thanks. Your maps already took me more than 1 hour to beat on normal and near 2 hours your missions 8 and 9. Don't want to slow myself even more xD.

1 hour ago, Fey said:

Oh, that one? Raiders' weapons are ineffective compared to troopers' weapons against quads, so I tried to keep the raiders out of the way and I made my troopers stop so they'd fire on the quad.

I mean the barracks placement. you used that on heavy and light factories for the enemies as well.

Edited by Cm_blast
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3 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

In this campaign you are the "weak" mercenary. So the sieges are strong just because the most of your army are soldiers and L.vehicles, at least in the early missions. That's their job here :P.

Oh. Yeah, okay.

3 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

So that's 48 minutes in real time, more that took me to beat my mission 5 xD.

Ah, no! Nope, that DOES NOT count :P

3 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

I know that in hard prices are bigger (and builds slower) but upgrades remain still (same with easy), but no thanks. Your maps already took me more than 1 hour to beat on normal and near 2 hours your missions 8 and 9. Don't want to slow myself even more xD.

Fair enough!

3 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

I mean the barracks placement. you used that on heavy and light factories for the enemies as well.

Oh. Yep, I need to diversify my base construction some more.

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We'll see how you do in the last four mission, but you should revert to the original state, since for example in a map there is an AI with a small base (barrack and light factory only) with an initial unit spaw of light infantry and troopers, so his attack will be based more on Trikes and quads. The base is far from the player's, and is better if he doesn't waste time on grenadiers :P.

I just notice how meticulous you are exploring XD. I build like 4-5 trikes and send to the cornerts/top/side to the maps and that's it. the survivors are send to the Enemy base with another angle, but that's it.

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26 minutes ago, Cm_blast said:

We'll see how you do in the last four mission, but you should revert to the original state, since for example in a map there is an AI with a small base (barrack and light factory only) with an initial unit spaw of light infantry and troopers, so his attack will be based more on Trikes and quads. The base is far from the player's, and is better if he doesn't waste time on grenadiers :P.

I just notice how meticulous you are exploring XD. I build like 4-5 trikes and send to the cornerts/top/side to the maps and that's it. the survivors are send to the Enemy base with another angle, but that's it.

I can't wait to see 'em :) And yeah, the default AI seems to have a value in for grenadier priority already. I try to eliminate everything I don't want the AI building ever for each new one I do. I love checking out new unit combinations I can make the AI use, and a full-light vehicle AI is fun. So many fragile targets zipping around, and they all go *pop!* when you blow 'em up. :D

Hehe, normally I'm a little more relaxed about exploring... I was kinda in my a-game for the S3V2 vid run. Now if only I could get in that mindset for the S7V1 run... I wanna do it in less than half an hour, and I've gotten close, but my macro always slows down when I expand to two locations and then I take a little too long. Ugh! I'll get it eventually lol

By the way, I updated the "next campaign" thread with H2V2. The map is overtuned, so good luck if you try it, but I left a ton of details and the hard mode strategies I used during testing under spoilers.

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38 minutes ago, Fey said:

I can't wait to see 'em :) And yeah, the default AI seems to have a value in for grenadier priority already. I try to eliminate everything I don't want the AI building ever for each new one I do. I love checking out new unit combinations I can make the AI use, and a full-light vehicle AI is fun. So many fragile targets zipping around, and they all go *pop!* when you blow 'em up. :D

Yeah, by default grenadiers have the 1 too, and since in my maps that unit doesn't exist, the AI need to build several grenadiers to compensate numbers. Also I measure the units with the "Guard group size" so any new unit builded is always destined to attack, so the AI is always preparing at least a couple of grenadieres before anything else early while preparing the attack (using your mod).

In some maps I have the proportions changed a bit too. I just found how the AI works with that. If you set a proportion of 5 for trikes and 3 for quads (and no other factories), the AI starts building trikes and quad in the regular 1:1 proportion, and after the 3 on 3 number is reach, the next two units will be trikes.

1 hour ago, Fey said:

By the way, I updated the "next campaign" thread with H2V2. The map is overtuned, so good luck if you try it, but I left a ton of details and the hard mode strategies I used during testing under spoilers.

Soooo, I should play it in easy then? XD.
 

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