[WIP] Harkonnen Campaign progress thread

[Cm_blast]

9 minutes ago, Fey said:

Unlike the berserk event? How do you mean? :O

I mean, like happen in that map of yours with the Fremen wandering around some walls. After you attack, they, for some reason, stop defending and just go against the player until all of them are dead.

This is being happening to me in several maps right now, more prone to happen if you have an ally, which will usually send small-medium attacks: not enough to defeat the enemy, but enough to, sooner or later, make the defending AI to send every unit available (and for a few of minutes every new unit builded too) to attack the player.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Cm_blast

[Fey]

Oh yeah. I dunno what caused that but it didn't happen again. If you see that happen again on the newer version of H2V1, please do let me know

[Cm_blast]

18 hours ago, Fey said:

Oh yeah. I dunno what caused that but it didn't happen again. If you see that happen again on the newer version of H2V1, please do let me know

I feel it's just the way the game works. I have a map where there are a weak enemy between you and the main enemy. I saw a couple of combat tanks in the front area and the siege tanks in back, so I just send 3 troopers to kill the combat tank. I kill the tank, they kill my troopers and proceed to send all the units against me for no reason.

Probably this is why the neutral enemies in the original maps were manually placed instead a unit spawn like the rest of players.

Maybe Westwood didn't know about it or didn't have time to fix it.

I am going to try some numbers in the IA tab, just in case some of them really fix that problem.

Edited October 20, 2017 by Cm_blast

[Dark Wesker]

This is an old game and old games have a lot of minuses. 

I tried to play your missions (H1-H4 all versions). H1V2 - you need remove or somthing do about devestators. Because they were heard. The missions are not bad but I do not like with defend area. One place would be good but no more. H4V1 - Not hard but very annoying. Because the enemies non stop going to me.

[Cm_blast]

20 minutes ago, Dark Wesker said:

This is an old game and old games have a lot of minuses. 

I know, but for example the editor allows to change the cash of the player and/or enemy, increasing the Tech, changing the attack build rate... Westwood didn't use any of this features in the original maps (only the unit build rate); or the voice line "Enemy units approaching" it's in the game but it's not being used (there are others, but this one was a core in Dune 2), so it's possible that one of the numbers in the AI tab can change that behaviour.

I am going to try numbers here and there, maybe one can make an AI to never attack: useless in a regular map, but usefull if you want an AI (enemy or ally) to not suicide trying to go all in for no reason. And like I said, maybe the creators were aware about this. I mean. I've playing this game for years, plus some more campaigns and never found this behaviour (of maybe happens but I wasn't aware either).

[Fey]

1 hour ago, Dark Wesker said:

This is an old game and old games have a lot of minuses. 

I tried to play your missions (H1-H4 all versions). H1V2 - you need remove or somthing do about devestators. Because they were heard. The missions are not bad but I do not like with defend area. One place would be good but no more. H4V1 - Not hard but very annoying. Because the enemies non stop going to me.

Thanks for checking the levels out!

Unfortunately, an MCV must be placed from the very start of the game for a practice AI to function properly. I used the Devastators initially to get rid of the MCVs, but perhaps I could instead do a system like H5B1, where a unit spawn acts as a trigger for the possible win condition. In this case, loss.

Which defense areas in particular were troublesome? And, do you have any more feedback on why they were bothersome?

I'm not sure why the enemy decides to send one or two units in your direction on H4V1. At least, that's what they did for me during testing. There are no defense areas on the map, default or mapped by me, that would tell the AI to defend itself inside your base... after you clear all of side 6 out, that is. Hopefully when Cm gets around to testing he can tell me what that problem's all about The lowest attack building rate for any Atreides AI is 9,000 tics. So, it's not supposed to happen so often.

P.S. - I've been intending to check out your maps, myself, but I haven't done work on my own in quite a while, and I wanna finish Domaithianus' Ordos campaign first.

Edited October 20, 2017 by Fey
P.S.

[Dark Wesker]

16 hours ago, Fey said:

Which defense areas in particular were troublesome? And, do you have any more feedback on why they were bothersome?

No, I do not have other feedback. Only that the enemies lose their defense in the base (for example H2V2 Emperor). And their movement into the defense area's is a bit bothersome. Only H4V1 was an annoying mission.  Everything else looks good.

Edited October 21, 2017 by Dark Wesker

[Fey]

1 hour ago, Dark Wesker said:

No, I do not have other feedback. Only that the enemies lose their defense in the base (for example H2V2 Emperor). And their movement into the defense area's is a bit bothersome. Only H4V1 was an annoying mission.  Everything else looks good.

H2V2... uhh, ah, it's that map. Aye, the AI should move a few units and that's it to the defense area, then send the rest to attack. At least, that's how it worked in testing. I guess I'll take another look at it and make sure it's still working.

Thanks.

[Cm_blast]

Well, I'm blank.

I created a small test map with the same idea as one of my maps: A Harkonnen base (just a couple of windtraps and a barracks), Imperial walls around that base and several imperial units being spawned.

Then I add an ordos reinforcements in loops every 40 seconds or so with raiders (and later I change to troopers), trying to simulate weaks attacks... but not Harkonnen or imperial left the base/walls.

So I don't know why sometimes after just one or two weak attacks the defending units go all in against the player in the "good" map but not here.

Edited October 21, 2017 by Cm_blast

[Fey]

Just thought I'd let you know I came across some bugs while replaying the maps. Atreides attacks on H4V1 are overtuned at the moment and Summers took revenge immediately after her Construction Yard was destroyed on H3V1, among other things. I'll fix it later, but please do let me know if you find anything else!

[Cm_blast]

I played the few maps available for this future campaign. I already played a couple of them some time ago, but with some updates about past levels I decided to give some time before continuing playing more maps. Now I ended all the missions:

H1v1:
A mission almost like a tutorial. The player being rewarded for any steps and some messages when you took down enemy buildings. Also it’s hilarious seeing the trikes exploding for no reason.

I miss some kind of enemy attack, Even if it is only 2-3 infantry and/or 1-2 trikes when the player does something at the beggining. Anyway, enemy attacked once with a considerable force, and then I counterattack to take the refinery and for there I just needing to send more units and killing everyone.

H1v2:
I remember this mission, but I don’t know exactly what changes were done. In general seems the same to me (maybe you added the defence areas). Again, I miss some kind of enemy attack, even if the enemy comes 2 by 2 or something.

Anway, it’s hilarious seeing a suppose ally crushing half of your units for no reason.

H2v1:
Seems that this time the enemy didn’t have so many units like the last time I play, but the AI also didn’t ever attack me. The only “threat” was the starport delivering light vehicles. I think I only killed (not counting 2 waves of vehicles) like 5 infantry at my base, no more units attacked me.

Was weird being able to expand my base since it’s not ever needed. I deployed the extra MCV, saw a few guys coming at me but didn't bother to do anything and just focusing in the next enemy's base.

H2v2:
This it’s the first map I didn’t played back then. Oh, boy. This mission seems like it’s not even part of this campaign or was made for another guy. For once there are enemies attacking me! Enemies were coming everywhere, but not too overwhelmed.

The missile tank part confused me. I didn’t even know what or where the carryalls I was suppose to take (maybe all?). Looking into the editor, it’s really any reward for doing that?.

Finally, that color it’s a bit problematic. I don’t mind the units, but on the radar was hard to difference my units from the ones of the enemy. I died a few vehicles because the enemy was attacking them (mine were only moving) but I though all those dots on the radar were just my own units.

H3v1:
Ok, I need help with this map, because I have no idea what what's going on. I explored the area, found those smugglernaries. Destroyed 2 turrets (the third was being attacked by the Atreides), then proceed to take down the light factory and the barracks. A bit later I finish the construction yard.

Some message appear, an MCV drop, deployed, a few merc-raiders appear, being “neutral” for like 5 seconds, then attacked my unit (in singular, since was the last unit that survive the debris) and that’s it. I ended fighting the smugglernaries a second time to avoid more enemies.

Although I don’t know if that’s suppose to happen or not, I checked in the editor and I can see there are an infinity drop for the player but… How can I achieve that? I am even trying to cheat with the editor and all, but I can’t make that think to work.
The scrip for the looping interval ask for this:
- NOT Base destroyed (fremen and emperor) – true
- Unit exist (harverster) – true
- NOT building exist (CY, Barrack, light infantry) – true, after destroying them.
- Building exist (smuggler ref) – true
- Unit exist (2 MCVs) – no idea on this; I’ll assume it’s true.
- Building exist (smuggler outpost) – true

But here it is the problem. When the three main buildings are destroyed, a new MCV appears and deploy the CY again, so the third step becomes false.
And if I proceed to destroy this new CY, the AI goes bersek and sells everything, becoming the “building exist – smuggler ref and outpost” false, so the reinforcements for the player never trigger doesn’t matter what I do.

Returning to the game itself, since I was alone I decided to use the harvesters as a meat shield/infantry crusher and troll the AI as hard as I can with them.

By the way, I don’t know if was on purpose to happen or not, but I can see everyone receiving a harvester before the ref. This happens in the H1v2 map for those expansions small-bases, but also for the player at H3v1.

H3v2:
Interesting map. The Ordos didn’t bother to attack too much; the first 2 quads wave scare me. The expansion it’s something I didn’t care about and I spend lots of money on Harversters as an offensive unit (the final screen said I build 28 harvesters).

Fighting mercenaries and Ordos at the same time behind the bridge was really hard. All the bottleneck and the enemy continuing to build more stuff took me several tries until I manage to push them back.

Also, a warning: having the sandworm as an ally with someone it’s going to make any unit near the sleeping sandworm to continuing attacking it forever when stationary (because being an ally tells him where he is).

Edited December 30, 2017 by Cm_blast

[Fey]

6 hours ago, Cm_blast said:

feedback

Hey CM! Thanks so much for the feedback, and you have funny timing because I have been doing some work on the Harkonnen campaign and I fixed a lot of bugs on these maps... and fine-tuned 'em.

H1V1:

Spoiler

I believe I have fixed the issue with the AI not attacking so much. It's level 1, but they should be doing something! I also tried to fix it so the trikes explode in the shroud, where you can't see 'em.

H1V2:

Spoiler

I don't remember what I fixed up on this map, I probably added some infantry only terrain, but I know I added in a recent update (which I have not yet uploaded to this thread) some attacks by the Fremen depending on how many Sietches you took down. Sorry about the Harvesters crushing your units, by the way, there's little to be done about that without revealing the MCVs needed to make the AI work in the bottom left corner of the map.

Perhaps I could give it another look and see if I made it so the AI is allied with you sooner...

H2V1:

Spoiler

They didn't attack you? That's odd. I'll double-check that I fixed that issue before I upload the new copy... they're supposed to attack fairly often, not quite as much as H2V2, but decently often.

The expansion is because resources are kinda limited up there. I wanted to give the player some more room to breathe! So they can drop a Refinery and put some new production structures in a new area of the map.

H2V2:

Spoiler

This one is one I'm pretty happy with! It definitely needs work, though. The gimmick of this map is that there's a military AI and an economy AI, and they support each-other. The Missile Tanks are meant to take out the mercenary Carryalls, since they have no way to replace Harvesters or Carryalls and can be crippled badly through Harvester hunting. Sumadi sends Durant a new Carryall if you blow one up, but he only does this once, and he only does it if his High Tech Factory is operational.

So, it can be helpful, but the Missile Tanks are probably the most useful as cover for other units while you're attacking the enemy base. I like to use them to harass Durant's Harvesters, but think of 'em like little extra goodies!

Aye, sorry about the minimap thing. That red was Sumadi's color, and still is, but thankfully Sumadi isn't very prominent on the map. The main enemies are either of the mercenary AIs.

Did you build an Outpost early on and intercept some transmissions? What did you think when they started asking each-other for help?

H3V1:

Spoiler

I'm terribly sorry about the glitched map. Capturing the smuggler base is one of the core gimmicks of H3V1, but it was glitched in the copy I uploaded due to an oversight. The issue has been fixed in the new copy, which has yet to be uploaded; Summers is meant to take revenge AFTER the Atreides are pretty much done for, and then you take all your units and go blow her up. Capturing the smuggler base in the meantime (by doing exactly what you did) is meant to give you access to those infinite reinforcements, and the much-needed Carryalls that can take your Harvesters to and from distant Spice fields. They're very scattered on that map, on purpose.

Yep, the Harvester reinforcement is intentional for H3V1, but it just kind of happens on H1V2. In the briefing (is the briefing done in the current copy uploaded? I don't remember), someone says "Imma order another Harvester" and then one appears at the start of the map.

H3V2:

Spoiler

Ah, did I accidentally leave the sandworm allied with someone? If the sandworm has an AI on any map, it shouldn't even appear at all. I'll make sure to fix that.

The Ordos are a relatively tame AI on this map. The main threat is the mercenaries. There are tons of them! I believe this is one of the things I rebalanced in the new version.

There are multiple ways into the Ordos base. The main entrance is much more convenient, the bridge is mostly there so the Ordos can reinforce their ally. That said, I have added new triggers to provide an MCV at any of the mercenary bases, meaning you can make a staging area over the bridge in the new version, which has yet to be uploaded.

The expansion was, once again, added because resources were notably scarce during testing. I felt the need to build more Refineries, so yep!

I wouldn't recommend going through with any more maps 'til the new versions are up. I did some major tuning for the bonus mission and made adjustments to H4V1, too. I literally just finished revamping the smugglers campaign and I was about to upload the new files when I noticed you posted here! See you on that thread? ^^

I have been ridiculously busy lately so the revamping has taken a while, and I still have a lot of other folks' campaigns to play through, but I got some good changes done.

[Cm_blast]

H1V1: It's hard to tell how the defence areas works.

1 hour ago, Fey said:

Spoiler

some attacks by the Fremen depending on how many Sietches you took down

 

I think the side that could attack has his defence area to big (the value, not the area). My "Harkonnen family" (the only campaign I tried to use some defence areas) the first map has a value of 5.500. It's only light infantry, but at least near 15 infantry are needed to fill that. Your's it's 20.000, or at least that it's the number in the version I have.

1 hour ago, Fey said:

Sorry about the Harvesters crushing your units

That was the VCM xD

1 hour ago, Fey said:

Spoiler

They didn't attack you? That's odd. I'll double-check that I fixed that issue before I upload the new copy... they're supposed to attack fairly often, not quite as much as H2V2, but decently often.

 

Maybe, like the previous map, they just take too long to fill the defence areas. 

1 hour ago, Fey said:

Spoiler

The expansion is because resources are kinda limited up there. I wanted to give the player some more room to breathe! So they can drop a Refinery and put some new production structures in a new area of the map

 

There are two big fields. By the time I finish the map, the left one was almost untouched.

1 hour ago, Fey said:

Spoiler

This one is one I'm pretty happy with! It definitely needs work, though. The gimmick of this map is that there's a military AI and an economy AI, and they support each-other. The Missile Tanks are meant to take out the mercenary Carryalls, since they have no way to replace Harvesters or Carryalls and can be crippled badly through Harvester hunting. Sumadi sends Durant a new Carryall if you blow one up, but he only does this once, and he only does it if his High Tech Factory is operational.

 

Pche, In my opinion removing the carryall makes a favor to the AI xD. The harverster take more time just waiting for the carryall and then droping than moving manually.

1 hour ago, Fey said:

Spoiler

Did you build an Outpost early on and intercept some transmissions? What did you think when they started asking each-other for help?

 

No. I read on the editor about was. It's a interesting concept, but I focused on more units since this time the enemy were attacking so often.

And at the end, with the lastest interception I did nothing. Every base was down except half the Ordos side, so they are free to do whatever they want xD. They only slow me a bit.

1 hour ago, Fey said:

Spoiler

(by doing exactly what you did) is meant to give you access to those infinite reinforcements, and the much-needed Carryalls that can take your Harvesters to and from distant Spice fields. They're very scattered on that map, on purpose.

 

Oh, I was doing right, good to know xD. I was imagining that the turn-around was suppose to be later. Good thing this time you didn't drop 40 combat tanks... xD.

I don't know if the carryalls are that necesary. Harversters are so cheap that having 2 carryals while I have 8 harversting and building more just to send them to crush the enemies and still "silos needed". I mean, there are no tanks or starports, only infantry and light vehicles, even 1 refinery it's enough to sustain money and build almost nonstop (and even more with the 2 initial harvesters).

1 hour ago, Fey said:

Yep, the Harvester reinforcement is intentional for H3V1, but it just kind of happens on H1V2. In the briefing (is the briefing done in the current copy uploaded? I don't remember), someone says "Imma order another Harvester" and then one appears at the start of the map.

Oh, ok, I am not reading the whole briefing just some parts. I don't mind being so detailed, but being in english I prefer to just focus in the game instead.

1 hour ago, Fey said:

Ah, did I accidentally leave the sandworm allied with someone? If the sandworm has an AI on any map, it shouldn't even appear at all. I'll make sure to fix that.

Yes, you have, the sandworm don't have any AI, but still.

1 hour ago, Fey said:

Spoiler

There are multiple ways into the Ordos base. The main entrance is much more convenient, the bridge is mostly there so the Ordos can reinforce their ally. That said, I have added new triggers to provide an MCV at any of the mercenary bases, meaning you can make a staging area over the bridge in the new version, which has yet to be uploaded.

 

I found the second entrance near the end, but I couldn't find it before because I send a trike and later 2 infantry (in separated times) over that area (not revealed yet), but because was blocked or something, my units just went around the bridge, so I asume that all that part was just rifts and the bridge the only entrance.

1 hour ago, Fey said:

The expansion was, once again, added because resources were notably scarce during testing. I felt the need to build more Refineries, so yep!

Wow, I only builds 2 refs and even a couple of silos and keep hearing "silos needed" xD. And, like I said (and the game said) I build 28 harversters during the game, so 20 of them were suicidal against the enemy (and still, "silos needed"). I don't know how many resources you need even for a test. I mean, I wasted 20.000 credits on harversters, even for hard that money should be enough to do lots of stuff.

[Fey]

The side the Fremen who attack spawn for is berserked. This isn't in the version you have, it's in the version I have been working on, but haven't released yet.

Oh, the MCV. Yeah... XD

That could be it. Like I said, I'll look it over in the new version and make sure I have it right.

They are big fields, but the Atreides were attacking me and I ran into good resistance, so I ran out of funds. Perhaps that's the new version of the map at work, I dunno what the old version is derping up about.

The Carryalls? Naww, they do speed things up for sure. The Spice fields aren't right outside the bases, they're a little ways away. I made sure it would have an impact.

The last one? With the Stealth Raiders? Usually they send those up to the northwest and go fight your attacking forces, but sometimes they curve around into the Imperial base.

The Carryalls helped me a lot on H3V2. I've been testing on normal mode, for the record, but they're even more sorely needed on hard mode. I guess it's just 'cause I build a lot of stuff and also tend to lose a lot of stuff during my aggressive attacks, lol

Ah, right. Well, you might like the updates to teh smuggler campaign when I'm done editing the thread! I added some more dialogue in-game for tactics, like on S6V1, Summers now asks Durant what he needs. He suggests either massing light vehicles and flanking enemy attacks when they meet his Medium Gun Turrets, or going straight into the Heavy Factory and getting some armor out front to soak some damage. S3V2, Summers asks him to put some units out front, which he does because defense areas, and then she says she'll focus on attacking the Atreides. It's the little things.

Oh, I see. I'll look into that some more. ^^

Aha, so that was on you Scout moar!

That's nuts! I wonder why you do so well with the whole economy thing. I mean, I get my Refineries up and stuff right away, but I need to build so many Harvesters and Refineries before I ever stop hearing "Insufficient funds." x_x

[Cm_blast]

1 hour ago, Fey said:

The Carryalls? Naww, they do speed things up for sure. The Spice fields aren't right outside the bases, they're a little ways away. I made sure it would have an impact.

I don't know, when I made the Dune 2 based campaign, I increase the tiles needed for a harverster to be picked up to 10, and even at 10 tiles of distance using a carryalls it's slighy slower than walking. Ha2v2 Ais fields are at 20 tiles more or less. They only will slow down because other units can be in their way, but otherwhise it's not really that big difference.

1 hour ago, Fey said:

Aha, so that was on you Scout moar!

Not my fauld, but the pathfinding. Sending 3 units to a unrevealed area and all the units go the other way.. well, it's not like your maps never have a big rift that cover everything but one path ah? xD

1 hour ago, Fey said:

That's nuts! I wonder why you do so well with the whole economy thing. I mean, I get my Refineries up and stuff right away, but I need to build so many Harvesters and Refineries before I ever stop hearing "Insufficient funds." x_x

To me, h3v2 with all that big field down and other 2 fields up (and several blooms) I don't ever need to focus on anything. I start always with only 1 refinery, then heavy factory, then harverster (so instead a second refs, I have fact + harv for the same money). Then 1 extra harv, with 3 there is always at least 1 harv droping money, and with that it's enough to building units quickly (I could build a second ref, but usually the first one it's already near the spice, also all the harversters goes at the only ref instead being near one ref and going to the other for no reason).

when the near field is half harverst, I build a new harv, so again there is always 1 harv droping money. Only when the mine field it's almost depleted I build a second refinery and split the harvs's droping, so I have most the time 2 harvs droping money, and for this point I can train grenadiers, quads and harverster non-stop never reaching out of money.

Edited December 31, 2017 by Cm_blast

[Fey]

There are cliffs, walls, and other units in the way. That's why the Carryalls are helpful.

Reee, the Harkonnen maps were built off the original campaign maps. Sure I put a bridge there, but the old path still existed!

Yeah, that's weird. I always run out of cash despite that. lol

[Fey]

Alright! I've done some bugfixing and fine-tuning, so the maps done thus far should be in a better state now. The Atreides will attack on H1V1, Fremen on H1V2, Atreides are significantly more aggressive on H2V1... H2V2 had some minor changes, like dialogue adjustment, done... H3V1, the smugglers and whatnot have been fixed, so that map should work properly now. H3V2, I adjusted enemies a tad and added new locations for an MCV to drop down. H4V1, slight adjustments. H5B1 had its structure changed, allowing for a non-linear approach into the enemy base if you want to try and beat them up, but they also have multiple avenues of attack...

H5V1: Ace in the Hole, is the new map. Here are the details, with a full map image and spoilers for the secret enemy on this map:

Spoiler

You once again begin with Gunseng as your ally for this mission. Since you've looked under the spoiler, you can clearly see the secret enemy is the Imperials. They will be pumping out lots of Missile Tanks, so come up with a good plan involving Trikes or Light Infantry! Combat Tanks alone are not going to cut it on this map.

You have a tech level of 4 now, which means Repair Pads, Carryalls, Engineers, MCVs, and Medium Gun Turrets. There are a few good locations to expand to if you need more space or want to place some more Refineries around. The enemy AIs are protected behind two turret nests, guarded by Sonic Tanks, and among typical infantry they will send Sardaukar and Fremen at you. Gunseng goes into infantry and light vehicles first, so you won't lose anything by going right into the Heavy Factory and Combat Tanks.

Good luck, and have fun! Remember, this is a work in progress. If you find any bugs, or have any suggestions for changes to be made, please drop your comments in this thread so I can improve the campaign! I suspect this map miiiight be a tad overtuned (more difficult than it should be). Thank you.

Here's a download link:
9 of 15 Hark.zip

If you followed the recent changes to the smugglers campaign, the mod included in this zip is no different. It's simply in there so if you don't have it, you can get it without needing to hunt for it elsewhere. To patch it in, simply place the 5 non-mission files into your .bin folder, and all 27 mission files into your missions folder. Then, launch with the Mission Launcher application. I look forward to hearin' back from y'all! Or, at least, Cm...

Edit: Hey Cm! This edit was made just after I finished your Heretic Alliance and Harkonnen Family campaigns. I'm returning to this campaign now to fix more stuff, tune more stuff, and I wanna change up structure layout and stuff here or there to be more interesting or fair. The latest update should contain some previous fixes, which will make the campaign thus far more fun, but I've got more work to do if I want this campaign to be up to standard! I'll be making my own fixes to the maps as I discover more bugs, but if you find anything you think should be changed - some kind of glitch or even just something being too hard or too easy - lemme know! ❤️

If you haven't re-downloaded this pack already, then be aware that I've made a couple of minor changes since the last update. I moved a turret on H2V1 to make the S2 Wind Traps more accessible and I also adjusted power distribution. I fixed some typos in the level 1 briefings, added 3 additional Missile Tanks on H2V2 as reinforcements, added a couple more descriptors in H2V2 and H3V1 briefings, clarified something in the H4V1 briefing, and reduced the amount of friendly units heading to the south end of your base for defense on H5V1. I also split the terrain somewhat between your base and your ally's. I also ensured that the mod is up to date and fixed a few insignificant bugs.

Edit 2: Pardon me, I made another edit to H5V1 to try and improve Gunseng's AI. Hopefully that's the last one for now.

Edited June 4, 2019 by Fey
Attachments removed; out of space for new uploads.

[Cm_blast]

Replaying this thing; I choose to play all the maps together since the campaign it’s incomplete.

Spoiler

 

Mission 1v1:
Definitely much better than the last time I played. Enemy sending a few small waves and overall I just did the same (or very similar) so, nothing new.

Mission 1vs2:
I don’t see much difference here. The map played the same to me. Only 3 Fremen attacked at the same time I free the first Sietch, but I don’t know if that was programmed or some Fremen for a nearby Sietch attacked at the same time… I don’t know, they were like 3-4 Fremen at most.

By the way, the bottom base builded a Barrack and a gun turret. Don’t know if that was intended.

Mission 2v1:
Like 1v1, enemies are attacking more than the last time I played. I should try to go first against another base, but for some reason I always go first to the left.

Heh, was funny killing a bunch of infantry type of units at the entrance from the enemy Starport with a group of grenadiers and trike. Clearing it to go with my troopers but… surprise! The spot now it’s covered with vehicles T_T.

Anyway; I insisted, took the starport and the rest it’s just kill-kill-kill, even with a harverster crashing one of the Fremen leaders.

 

So far I can see the enemy being a bit more agresive, at least mission 1v1 y 2v1.

[Runtowin]

H1V1:

Spoiler

- The bottom-right corner wall of your base is enemy's, while the others is mine.

- Was it intended that enemy focused on your first two trikes that comes with MCV? I kite them around, and their light infantries (came from selling buildings) just chased them like an idiot while my infantries slaughtered them.

- I got a lot of reinforcements, not really necessary imo.

- Enemy often attacks with 4-5 Trikes + 3-4 Infantries/Troopers. Not too hard with your starting unit + a few troopers.

- The enemy base defense was good for the first mission. They always had many units in the base.

- However, nothing stand against the might of 4 Harvesters rush + my army trailing behind.

H1V2:

Spoiler

- I had trouble dealing with the worm here. It took way longer then it should. Should have brought more than 2 trikes.

- I noticed I was dealing with Fremen, so I was going ahead with Harvester spam.

- I attacked two nearest Fremen Sietch with 4 Harvesters each. They squished all Fremen guarding the sietch, while my troopers took care of the rest.

- I combined my Harvesters and went on a squishing spree on the top right Sietch (I noticed they spawn around 10 Fremen at once. Wow). Again, troopers took care of sietch & trike.

- When Gunseng started building his base on each island. There was some attack, but was squished fast.

- Harvester was way too good here. I suggest not allowing player to produce harvester.

 

 

[Fey]

Hey guys! Thanks for the feedback, I've been a tad busy for the last few days so I haven't been around.

On 3/22/2018 at 9:11 AM, Cm_blast said:

Replaying this thing; I choose to play all the maps together since the campaign it’s incomplete.

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Mission 1v1:
Definitely much better than the last time I played. Enemy sending a few small waves and overall I just did the same (or very similar) so, nothing new.

Mission 1vs2:
I don’t see much difference here. The map played the same to me. Only 3 Fremen attacked at the same time I free the first Sietch, but I don’t know if that was programmed or some Fremen for a nearby Sietch attacked at the same time… I don’t know, they were like 3-4 Fremen at most.

By the way, the bottom base builded a Barrack and a gun turret. Don’t know if that was intended.

Mission 2v1:
Like 1v1, enemies are attacking more than the last time I played. I should try to go first against another base, but for some reason I always go first to the left.

Heh, was funny killing a bunch of infantry type of units at the entrance from the enemy Starport with a group of grenadiers and trike. Clearing it to go with my troopers but… surprise! The spot now it’s covered with vehicles T_T.

Anyway; I insisted, took the starport and the rest it’s just kill-kill-kill, even with a harverster crashing one of the Fremen leaders.

So far I can see the enemy being a bit more agresive, at least mission 1v1 y 2v1.

Spoiler

H1V1:
Great! A few attacks here and there is much nicer than none at all. XD

H1V2:
There are some small attacks. I hope those were noticeable! Maybe I should just go ham and make them able to train new Fremen. How much would that screw things up? I don't wanna change the overall map image, just the stuff going on.

Yeah, they have a sufficient tech level to build stuff like that. They only build a few structures though and might block themselves out from building certain structures due to AI space comprehension.

H2V1:
That's good. I like going for the south base first, myself. You can get at one of their two Light Factories and it's a decent area perfect for expansion.

Hehe. XD Heading through the middle of the map is tough because they do guard that area. I wanted to make the Starport and its side support the other AIs with defense in inconvenient areas for the player. It's only with infantry at first. Your Troopers blew all those light vehicles to smithereens though, right?

Nice. Hey, they have an easy enough time blowing up your Harvesters, right?

 

20 hours ago, Runtowin said:

H1V1:

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- The bottom-right corner wall of your base is enemy's, while the others is mine.

- Was it intended that enemy focused on your first two trikes that comes with MCV? I kite them around, and their light infantries (came from selling buildings) just chased them like an idiot while my infantries slaughtered them.

- I got a lot of reinforcements, not really necessary imo.

- Enemy often attacks with 4-5 Trikes + 3-4 Infantries/Troopers. Not too hard with your starting unit + a few troopers.

- The enemy base defense was good for the first mission. They always had many units in the base.

- However, nothing stand against the might of 4 Harvesters rush + my army trailing behind.

 

Spoiler

Bottom right corner wall? Let me see... umm, nope, it belongs to the player in my copy. I uploaded the most recent copies of all 9 maps currently available to this post:
https://forum.dune2k.com/topic/27514-wip-harkonnen-campaign-progress-thread/?do=findComment&comment=394977

If you got H1V1 from much earlier in the thread, you should update it!

About the other stuff: I dunno why the AI focuses these things. They act silly sometimes and there's not much to be done about it.

I think I could cut out some reinforcements but I'd like some to move the map along quicker. It's level 1, after all!

Yep. I wanted some small attacks. It's not meant to be a "veteran's campaign," rather a campaign with difficulty tuned similarly to the original game. There's a curve, level 1's gonna be easy, level 9's gonna be hard. You know? Do you suppose I could boost their attacks some, or is the occasional small attack good enough for some fun?

Hopefully not too much defense. I could balance out the defense for more offense, I suppose. I'm experimenting a lot with defense areas in this campaign so far, so, uhh... hopefully it results in some funner gameplay. The AI builds a lot of stuff in my campaign, but things are easier to kill in general given buffs or nerfs to various units.

Four Harvesters?! I just get two on this map - one from one Ref, one reinforcement - and slaughter everything with Trikes and Light Infantry. A few Troopers take care of the MGTs and that's that. Did the map take much longer since Harvester spam, or was it over pretty quick, would you say? My typical time on this map is, like... five minutes. Maybe six if I'm screwing around.

 

20 hours ago, Runtowin said:

H1V2:

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- I had trouble dealing with the worm here. It took way longer then it should. Should have brought more than 2 trikes.

- I noticed I was dealing with Fremen, so I was going ahead with Harvester spam.

- I attacked two nearest Fremen Sietch with 4 Harvesters each. They squished all Fremen guarding the sietch, while my troopers took care of the rest.

- I combined my Harvesters and went on a squishing spree on the top right Sietch (I noticed they spawn around 10 Fremen at once. Wow). Again, troopers took care of sietch & trike.

- When Gunseng started building his base on each island. There was some attack, but was squished fast.

- Harvester was way too good here. I suggest not allowing player to produce harvester.

 

Spoiler

Between your feedback and Cm's, I'm thinking I should allow the Fremen to train more warriors from the Sietch and add Trikes and maybe even Quads to some of their reinforcements and starting units. That seems to be the logical conclusion.

That's fair. Light Infantry spam works too, I usually finish just fine with like 20 LI.

Four Harvesters? I'm starting to think you have an addiction to Harvesters.

Yep. The Fremen will come with reinforcements any time Gunseng starts building on an island. Fending them off isn't too hard, but it can be startling! There's a line of dialogue alerting the player whenever the Fremen attack a new location, so hopefully you have enough time to react. I think if I threw some light vehicles in with those reinforcements, it'd help nerf Harvesters on this map and alert the player to the direction of Fremen attacks.

I want to keep the mod normalized between ALL maps with my mod. So, on a map like S1V1 where you need to harvest some Spice and 1v1 some Imperials, I wouldn't want the player to not build Harvesters, either for economic or offensive purposes. If I made much greater use of light vehicles on H1V2, do you think that would nerf Harvesters enough?

Thanks for testing those, guys! I hope to hear back from y'all soon.

[Runtowin]

Spoiler

1 hour ago, Fey said:

nope, it belongs to the player in my copy.

Guess I wasn't paying attention back then, just wanted some space.

1 hour ago, Fey said:

About the other stuff: I dunno why the AI focuses these things. They act silly sometimes and there's not much to be done about it.

Move trikes out a little bit? So that they focus on MCV instead.

1 hour ago, Fey said:

You know? Do you suppose I could boost their attacks some, or is the occasional small attack good enough for some fun?

I think it's ok for mission 1.

1 hour ago, Fey said:

If I made much greater use of light vehicles on H1V2, do you think that would nerf Harvesters enough?

Maybe, some quads should be fine. My mighty harvesters will stand their ground regardless though.

 

H2V1:

Spoiler

- This map was 1v4. A step up in difficult compared to H1.

- Enemy from the left seldom built light vehicle, they trained a lot of light infantry, so many that required massed Grenadier to defend. Many time I had to rely on good old harvester to take care.

- Enemy from bottom was the opposite. Troopers could push them out easily, but they often targeted my harvesters. RIP harvesters.

- I went to the left, since they are closer, they had too many units in base, plus Fremen. My mighty harvesters did it again. Fremen leader #1 was squished.

- Same to the bottom, they mostly attacked with light vehicle, but lots of infantry guarded the base. You know the rest. Fremen leader #2 met the same fate.

- Offensive grenadier was not effective in this map. Enemy's infantry was smart enough to closing in, instead of fighting. Both dead to grenade.

- My second MCV was destroyed fast, because I prioritized on production building and CY. I wasn't able to clear out enemy base when MCV arrived.

- Since starting spice field was too small. After it is depleted, my harvesters often stupidly went down the spice field near south base. Many were destroyed.

 

H2V2:

Spoiler

- 2v4. However, my ally was ok at the start but useless later on.

- I do not have as many trouble as V1, but enemy's insane production was still a threat. The southwest base gave me much headache.

- Other than that, it was a tough time fending off enemy attack from all 4 side. My ally did not help much.

- I attacked with small squad instead of one big group, hoping to reduce enemy's intensity first.

- I did not use harvester for offensive duty this time. I probably should though.

 

[Fey]

30 minutes ago, Runtowin said:

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Guess I wasn't paying attention back then, just wanted some space.

Move trikes out a little bit? So that they focus on MCV instead.

I think it's ok for mission 1.

Maybe, some quads should be fine. My mighty harvesters will stand their ground regardless though.

 

Spoiler

No problem!

Hmm. Maybe I could throw some more infantry reinforcements over there instead? It wouldn't make sense to have drops that don't cover the most important unit, after all. From a strategic perspective. Then again, S9V1 phase 1...

Okay. Glad to hear!

Of course. Lol but Quads are pretty nifty in my mod! Yeah they can be popped pretty easily by Troopers and stuff still, but they hit WAY harder. They're perfect for harassing enemy Harvesters or swarming and popping Siege Tanks.

 

30 minutes ago, Runtowin said:

H2V1:

  Hide contents

- This map was 1v4. A step up in difficult compared to H1.

- Enemy from the left seldom built light vehicle, they trained a lot of light infantry, so many that required massed Grenadier to defend. Many time I had to rely on good old harvester to take care.

- Enemy from bottom was the opposite. Troopers could push them out easily, but they often targeted my harvesters. RIP harvesters.

- I went to the left, since they are closer, they had too many units in base, plus Fremen. My mighty harvesters did it again. Fremen leader #1 was squished.

- Same to the bottom, they mostly attacked with light vehicle, but lots of infantry guarded the base. You know the rest. Fremen leader #2 met the same fate.

- Offensive grenadier was not effective in this map. Enemy's infantry was smart enough to closing in, instead of fighting. Both dead to grenade.

- My second MCV was destroyed fast, because I prioritized on production building and CY. I wasn't able to clear out enemy base when MCV arrived.

- Since starting spice field was too small. After it is depleted, my harvesters often stupidly went down the spice field near south base. Many were destroyed.

 

Spoiler

Hopefully not too much harder! I don't have very much trouble on this map, myself. It's got a lot of enemy forces, but nothing particularly threatening.

Thanks for the heads-up. I'll check their build priorities and adjust the ratios if needed. Infantry can be built faster, so for efficiency's sake, I tell the AI to build lots of Infantry... because if I set the ratio to 3 Light Infantry and 1 Trike, they'll be building stuff CONSTANTLY. If I set the ratio to 1 LI and 1 Trike, they'll pump out one LI per Trike, and then the Barracks is idle for a while! So it may seem like they're prioritizing infantry when what I'm trying to do is make them train infantry at a good pace compared to vehicles.

XD RIP indeed. There are some rocks between the Harkonnen base and the southern Atreides base, at least!

Too many? Should I reduce the build rate of the support AI east of the Atreides base, you think? There's a choke point leading in to it, so Grenadiers are VERY effective at slaughtering whatever infantry they send through that way at you.

Nice.

Light Infantry tend to close in by default, but having a few Grenadiers and/or Light Infantry grouped in with your Quads doesn't hurt. If your infantry squads are away from your light vehicles, the support infantry with your light vehicles will help a lot if there are Troopers closing in.

Oh, darn. Is there a more convenient time that MCV could arrive, you think? If so, when?

Cm reported NEVER running out of Spice on this map, and I always take the south base before running out of Spice as well. Are you focusing too much on building Harvesters, perhaps? Nevertheless, I'll see what I can do about adding a Spice field on the north side of the map, probably behind the Atreides support base.

 

30 minutes ago, Runtowin said:

H2V2:

  Hide contents

- 2v4. However, my ally was ok at the start but useless later on.

- I do not have as many trouble as V1, but enemy's insane production was still a threat. The southwest base gave me much headache.

- Other than that, it was a tough time fending off enemy attack from all 4 side. My ally did not help much.

- I attacked with small squad instead of one big group, hoping to reduce enemy's intensity first.

- I did not use harvester for offensive duty this time. I probably should though.

 

Spoiler

I'm trying to figure out how to make the ally not-useless. He doesn't want to build stuff for some reason. Maybe he needs moar Harvesters or something. So, uhh... sorry about that.

Hehe, Durant is still a reliable ally... only, he's allied to your enemy, this time. Did the Missile Tanks help you out? If you take out his Carryalls or Harvesters, he'll be crippled bigtime. He cannot build more than one Harvester for each base, and his economic weakness was mentioned in the briefing. Aside from his production, he's got some intense attacks because the map layout ensures those infantry and light vehicles arrive to attack at the same time. Pretty neat, huh?

Pardon, four sides? There are two base entrances, one with an Imperial LGT in the middle and the other with Imperial troops guarding it. Which areas do you mean?

That's fair. I try to design my maps so that's a viable course of action, especially because I like to attack small myself.

I'm also glad you beat this map without using Harvesters offensively! That helps me get some varied feedback. Though, you might want to for H3V1... I didn't, though.

Thanks for continuing the tests, Runtowin. I owe you some detailed feedback of my own.

Edited March 23, 2018 by Fey

[Runtowin]

Spoiler

20 minutes ago, Fey said:

Too many? Should I reduce the build rate of the support AI east of the Atreides base, you think? There's a choke point leading in to it, so Grenadiers are VERY effective at slaughtering whatever infantry they send through that way at you.

Well, if they actually moved them out for me to kill. They often had around 20-30 infantries + a few trikes in base. Therefore, grenadier was too costly compared to some big bulky harvester parking in front of the barrack.

25 minutes ago, Fey said:

Light Infantry tend to close in by default, but having a few Grenadiers and/or Light Infantry grouped in with your Quads doesn't hurt. If your infantry squads are away from your light vehicles, the support infantry with your light vehicles will help a lot if there are Troopers closing in.

Hmm, I don't think I did any differently. Maybe I suck at micro.

31 minutes ago, Fey said:

Oh, darn. Is there a more convenient time that MCV could arrive, you think? If so, when?

Base destroyed? Or come with some guard?

33 minutes ago, Fey said:

Cm reported NEVER running out of Spice on this map, and I always take the south base before running out of Spice as well. Are you focusing too much on building Harvesters, perhaps?

I didn't run out of spice. It's just that, I don't have alternative spice field other than the south one, after the one near my base depleted.

37 minutes ago, Fey said:

Did the Missile Tanks help you out? If you take out his Carryalls or Harvesters, he'll be crippled bigtime. He cannot build more than one Harvester for each base, and his economic weakness was mentioned in the briefing. Aside from his production, he's got some intense attacks because the map layout ensures those infantry and light vehicles arrive to attack at the same time. Pretty neat, huh?

I didn't hunt for harvesters. The right base and top-right base was taken out fast. I thought the other bases are as weak. How wrong I was.

Yep, nice.

42 minutes ago, Fey said:

I'm also glad you beat this map without using Harvesters offensively! That helps me get some varied feedback. Though, you might want to for H3V1... I didn't, though.

Well, depend on how many infantries they have.

44 minutes ago, Fey said:

Which areas do you mean?

Sorry, I meant 4 different bases, 3 corners and east one.

 

 

[Fey]

3 minutes ago, Runtowin said:

  Hide contents

Well, if they actually moved them out for me to kill. They often had around 20-30 infantries + a few trikes in base. Therefore, grenadier was too costly compared to some big bulky harvester parking in front of the barrack.

Hmm, I don't think I did any differently. Maybe I suck at micro.

Base destroyed? Or come with some guard?

I didn't run out of spice. It's just that, I don't have alternative spice field other than the south one, after the one near my base depleted.

I didn't hunt for harvesters. The right base and top-right base was taken out fast. I thought the other bases are as weak. How wrong I was.

Yep, nice.

Well, depend on how many infantries they have.

Sorry, I meant 4 different bases, 3 corners and east one.

 

Spoiler

Oh, I see. Okay, I'll see what I can do about that.

Usually just the Scatter button works if the support Grenadiers are grouped up. X!

H3V2 it up in here. Got it!

I mean, he never ran out of Spice at the main base. I'll see what I can do.

Ah, I understand. Yeah, sniping Harvesters on this map definitely makes it easier. The Missile Tanks are for the Carryalls and for general heavy support. They can actually snipe the ConYard at the east mercs' base from down under it.

Right.

Oh. Well, the northwest and northeast bases don't actually build all that much; the mercs are the biggest threat on this map. I could reduce the smugglers' combat efficiency more if it'll help, and the mercs are slightly gimped offensively because they dedicate some forces to defending the smugglers.

 

[Runtowin]

Spoiler

1 hour ago, Fey said:

one with an Imperial LGT in the middle and the other with Imperial troops guarding it.

Most of the game, Imperial force kept 1 quad in that right side, because I had to move my force out to protect my harvester, and he lost his job. He didn't even move one inch, you know.

17 minutes ago, Fey said:

mercs are slightly gimped offensively because they dedicate some forces to defending the smugglers.

I saw 1 quad, 1 grenadier, 1 light infantry from mercenary at Smuggler's base after I destroyed their CY and production buildings. Not significant IMO.