D2K+ Online Tips and Strategies + FAQ

[Gruntlord6]

These pages are very outdated and need to be replaced. I've already handled updating the main page but I feel it would be best if the community got together to update the content.
The current page for Tips and Strategies is a good start but could use some polish and cleaning up. The FAQ page is almost entirely outdated and basically needs to be totally redone.

Feel free to post your thoughts here and I can update the pages accordingly.

[X3M]

Will do. But I consider myself being a noob again in the 'for me' new community.

Still need to find time to do a game.

 

You have done an excellent job and consider you as one of my gods now.

(Yes Nyerguds, you still are one too)

 

I love the option to choose a mission from the list. However, what is up with the 2 choices for mission 1, 2, 3, 6 and 9 (ordos has also 4)

Map choices from ingame?

[Feda]

Yeah I wrote that guide some time ago, I'll have a look and update it when i get some time. I believe i dont have access on d2k+ anymore as last time i tried i got invalid password message, so you can post the updated guide for me :D.

 

Most things that are on the strategy page are still viable (more than 90%), except the hamachi/oos things. FAQ needs a complete polish though.

[Gruntlord6]

I love the option to choose a mission from the list. However, what is up with the 2 choices for mission 1, 2, 3, 6 and 9 (ordos has also 4)

Map choices from ingame?

For whatever reason, during development Westwood/Intelligent Games decided  that missions 4,5,7 and 8 would not include a second map, but they still left the slot for the second map in the menu design.

I took advantage of this and made a secondary version of Ordos mission 4, which is why that one has a listing and the other houses do not.

[FunkyFr3sh]

Would be nice to have some videos too, we are currently making some for red alert1

examples:

hotkeys:

builds orders (not done yet): https://baccd950fc618496c71e377631e5c9df6d9f7c2e.googledrive.com/host/0B5by5H1Q2PxEODFSa2d6elFJZUE/Videos/unfinished/

[Gruntlord6]

Would be nice to have some videos too, we are currently making some for red alert1

examples:

hotkeys:

builds orders (not done yet): https://baccd950fc618496c71e377631e5c9df6d9f7c2e.googledrive.com/host/0B5by5H1Q2PxEODFSa2d6elFJZUE/Videos/unfinished/

Perhaps Feda could handle that, he seems comfortable recording, he just needs to write a script :p

[X3M]

Currently I play Dune2000.

But Red Alert, I had good memories with that game.

But that is that we had the aftermath units. Why aren't they included now?

 

Back to Dune2000.

Perhaps you could put 2 examples of the best builds:

- One where you use slabs for your wind traps. How well can you build?

- One where you do not use slabs for your wind traps. How well can you build?

 

The difference has to be made clear, especially to new players.

[FunkyFr3sh]

Currently I play Dune2000.

But Red Alert, I had good memories with that game.

But that is that we had the aftermath units. Why aren't they included now?

 

Back to Dune2000.

Perhaps you could put 2 examples of the best builds:

- One where you use slabs for your wind traps. How well can you build?

- One where you do not use slabs for your wind traps. How well can you build?

 

The difference has to be made clear, especially to new players.

Aftermath is included, you have to enable it in the game room :)

[X3M]

What ?!

Where !?

 

Why does no-one do that?

[FunkyFr3sh]

most people dislike aftermath because it limits the production speed to 2 facilities, that has been fixed some time ago by our fast aftermath build speed option, but people have been playing without aftermath for so many years now, i doubt they will start playing it again

 

There are a lot of new players tho, should be possible to find some people to play it with

[Gruntlord6]

 

Back to Dune2000.

Perhaps you could put 2 examples of the best builds:

- One where you use slabs for your wind traps. How well can you build?

- One where you do not use slabs for your wind traps. How well can you build?

 

The difference has to be made clear, especially to new players.

Good idea, a comparison of build speeds with and without concrete would be a real eye opener for new players.

[Feda]

Well in no rules u can skip concrete for wind traps in order to get a very fast rush, but I dont recommend it. In 8 min it's completely pointless and will do tons of harm later.

[Gruntlord6]

Well in no rules u can skip concrete for wind traps in order to get a very fast rush, but I dont recommend it. In 8 min it's completely pointless and will do tons of harm later.

I think he meant in general, like a build with minimal concrete vs the concrete a player would use in the campaign.

[Feda]

Well if by "campaign concrete" u mean concrete under every building, then that is useless in any game type, even campaign :D You can be a lot more productive by usibg it only with wind traps.

[X3M]

The list so far:

 

MOD idea's (custom options):

- Crushable Stealth Raider.

- Stealth detection for the Harvester.

- Notification of no moving Harvesters.

 

- Additional concrete automatically placed when placing a structure.

- Forced placement on concrete only.

 

- Rebalanced Combat Tanks; €600 for Ordos CT, €800 for Harkonnen CT. And the respective build times should be altered too.

See page 4 post #69 in http://forum.dune2k.com/topic/24410-dune2000-underestimated-in-quality/?p=377233 for the calculations.

If the game had a good balance in army vs army and army vs base, then it would have been €650 and €750.

 

I am really curious if and which, the players would choose.

 

---

 

On a side note, how useful are the missile tank and siege tank any ways? (Well, siege is somewhat usefull against troopers).

I also see no use in rifle infantry since every one amasses quads, CT and troopers.

[Gruntlord6]

Well if by "campaign concrete" u mean concrete under every building, then that is useless in any game type, even campaign :D You can be a lot more productive by usibg it only with wind traps.

 

But most players fresh to online don't realize that. A comparison would do wonders.

The list so far:

 

MOD idea's (custom options):

- Crushable Stealth Raider.

- Stealth detection for the Harvester.

- Notification of no moving Harvesters.

 

- Additional concrete automatically placed when placing a structure.

- Forced placement on concrete only.

 

- Rebalanced Combat Tanks; €600 for Ordos CT, €800 for Harkonnen CT. And the respective build times should be altered too.

See page 4 post #69 in http://forum.dune2k.com/topic/24410-dune2000-underestimated-in-quality/?p=377233 for the calculations.

If the game had a good balance in army vs army and army vs base, then it would have been €650 and €750.

 

I am really curious if and which, the players would choose.

 

---

 

On a side note, how useful are the missile tank and siege tank any ways? (Well, siege is somewhat usefull against troopers).

I also see no use in rifle infantry since every one amasses quads, CT and troopers.

There aren't going to be any gameplay mods implemented in multiplayer, and this isn't the topic to discuss them anyway.

[Charles]

 

- Rebalanced Combat Tanks; €600 for Ordos CT, €800 for Harkonnen CT. And the respective build times should be altered too.

See page 4 post #69 in http://forum.dune2k.com/topic/24410-dune2000-underestimated-in-quality/?p=377233 for the calculations.

If the game had a good balance in army vs army and army vs base, then it would have been €650 and €750.

 

I am really curious if and which, the players would choose.

 

---

 

On a side note, how useful are the missile tank and siege tank any ways? (Well, siege is somewhat usefull against troopers).

I also see no use in rifle infantry since every one amasses quads, CT and troopers.

 

 

IMO prices are ok like that for combat tanks, should be the same for each race. Your proposition suggests that speed has absolutely no importance, so that price should only adjust to pure power. I think this is up to each player. Some build one super army/super wall that will slowly push and crush opposition, others like to rely on speed to make efficient sneak attacks. If Hark tank costs more than others, I think no one will try to play Harkonnen anymore. Yes they have more armor but this is already balanced by the fact that they are slower and this is important in multiplayer. (not so in singleplayer though)

 

Missile tanks have the best range of Arrakis so they are of capital importance. They can pin anything even sonics. I like the fact that they have poor armor because it makes other tanks still valuable. Siege are also important but to a lesser degree. You only need a few in an army to prevent being caught off-guard by a mass of troopers. For Atréïdes, siege tanks are close to irrevelant because of the availability of sonics, but I do order some from starport as you can't order sonics.

 

You are right about rifle infantry. This is especially true in standard 8-min no-rush games because everybody has time to upgrade heavy factory, which gives access to siege tanks and make light infantry (and also trike/raider) quite obsolete. However, when playing no-rules on a small map, it can be good to have some infantry and trikes (easier to get than siege tanks) if you fear a quick and massive tropper rush.

[X3M]

@ Gruntlord

Every one is going Harkonnen; CT, Quads, Troopers. I see this over and over again -.-

Afterwards: Those with Atreides goes Sonics, Ordos is dead and Harkonnen still has the same. Those with Devastators mostly end up without a base because of the slow movement speed.

I don't see the title "tips and strategies" apply any more. Sorry. I simply need to be really really fast with producing units.

 

@ Charles

The prices are an indication. In my study on gaming I learned that there is a difference between math balance and playable balance (=discriminate balance).

600/700/800 for the discriminate balance. 650/700/750 when by math.

This game in particular asks for massing units. There is not really a "back door" tactic when you go amass. Where you simply loose when using a fast army against the opponent who uses the "wall" .

And for ammassing, the best players go for troopers, quads and CT.

[Feda]

That's how the game is, can't change it, trust me, I tried badly and failed badly over the years to get rid of the unit spam. It's how it is, can't change :v

[X3M]

Well, I understand that you all went into the trouble of getting things done. I realize that.

 

And after playing all the other games on CnCnet, I have come to realize that every westwood game is a spam feast when played online.

The source of this RTSpam is the amount of money and the game speed.

Resource management is a very vital game mechanic. Too little or to much destroys the game. I think you all know that in Starcraft, the resource is set on medium on most maps. Those spam maps only resulted in mass carriers/battlecruisers for most players.

 

Now, to get tips and strategies going. Perhaps some should step up and start making LOW resource maps. Yes, that is right, one spice field for each player. And one extra when you expand.

The "strategy" results that you get are:

- scouting is much more needed. Even though it is just a one time thing each map.

- infantry will be used much, much more since they are so cheap. Resulting in:

-- usage of trikes/raiders/stealth raiders

-- later on usage of siege tanks

 

I think that there will be many more tactics this way that I didn't even think about. But then they can be discussed in this section.

 

Game speed is also a vital game mechanic. For this as example Warcraft2. There is magic and micro that is of much more use when players get a chance of using it properly and precise: healing, runes, dodging a catapult sideways.

I think the same goes for the micro with certain units: dodging the siege and sonic tank is better done side ways. harkonnen CT? Lets run away with our weaker Ordos CT, and let our troopers do some damage too.

You don't see game speed settings in starcraft, nor in C&C3.

[Feda]

You need a brand new game and engine for those, if you ever modded dune 2k at least a bit u can understand why i'm saying this.

[X3M]

But the resources can be managed with the map editor that Gruntlord6 has provided?

And the game speed setting is something that the host simply has to put on a lower number instead of 7?

[Feda]

Go ahead, do these and see if it gets any better.

[X3M]

Yes, I did. I managed to make one map (extremely) low resources.

 

The plan:

Each player gets the exact same spice field.

Each player (7 in total) has a field with one spice baloon, 8 thick spice and 21 thin spice.

 

Harvesting:

1 harvester keeps working.

2 harvesters are fine, however, once the baloon hasn't popped for a while, one harvesters starts wondering. Keep an eye out.

3 harvesters, is overkill after some minutes. Until you get an extra field.

You can imagine the strategies that now are needed to keep the spice flowing.

 

Either get carryalls and 1 to 2 harvesters per field that have been conquered. The down side is that once an harvester gets wondering around, the carryall speeds this proces up and your harvester ends up at a none conquered field. = Death.

So each conquered field should have only one harvester now.

Or get an MCV and place 2 harvesters with one refinery at it.

 

Unit usages:

I played 2 times. The second time showed that I had to get a mixed army.

The first time (1 AI), the AI actually managed to get my CY. Ok, I still won with mass trikes and quads, while the AI had no usable units at that point. So 1 AI is really to weak on the map. But hey, it is on any map.

 

Second time (5 AI), this was fun. I actually lost! By opponent overkill.

At the beginning I went 6 trikes. But money was low and my first AI encounter had several troopers. Since I did not want to loose any trike, I decided to retreat. And build 5 rifle infantry instead. I had no money yet for tanks!. Once defeated, I rushed with my trikes and one engineer, and he was dead.

Got my factory and repair bay. Everything got repaired. Meanwhile I also got some CT and Siege. And the Atreides High Tech with upgrade. Bad mistake for teching (like it is in most games with lower resources :) )

Even though my death count was 0, even after defeating my first AI. All other enemies send 1+1 combat tank, 1 siege tank, or 2 to 3 squads of infantry. All I had at that moment was 6 trikes, 2 CT, 5 rifle infantry and 3 siege tanks. Now you wonder why I lost? The AI all repeated this while my spice field was, well empty.

If I just didn't tech! And didn't upgrade my CY, Barracks and Light Factory. Then I had a few more units to defend with. What can one get for €1900?

 

---

 

Now, what would you suggest would be a fun ammount of harvesters? Without getting a spam feast?

Because that would be the tip: "get this much harvesters for optimal use"

[Gruntlord6]

But the resources can be managed with the map editor that Gruntlord6 has provided?

And the game speed setting is something that the host simply has to put on a lower number instead of 7?

I want to stress the fact that the D2K+ Toolkit is simply bundled with the GruntMods Edition, the only thing I was involved with was testing it.

Either way, I've already mentioned the topic is not about gameplay changes. Any further attempts to discuss it here and I will get a moderator to clean up the topic.