Dune2000, underestimated in quality?

[Nyerguds]

Right, right, sorry, was just answering his questions. Any mod can feel free to split it off and put it in General or Gaming :P

[THE AQIB]

Interesting talk abt c&c by the way.

[X3M]

Yeah, that was interesting :)

If you can make ini files for C&C dawn, then you also might be able to do that for dune2000.

[Nyerguds]

Unfortunately, the games are completely different internally, since Dune 2000 wasn't made by Westwood. Making these inis not only requires finding all that unit data (which would be peanuts, with some tibed edits and some file compares to see what tibed changed), but also finding functions in the exe to make vectors (automatically expanding data lists), ini read functions, memory allocation and deallocation, and a load more -_-

[X3M]

That's some bad news. :(

[Nyerguds]

Not like I'd get on it any time soon anyway, I haven't even implemented it in C&C yet.

[X3M]

Well, if it works on C&C. Then there would be no need for dune2000.

After all, the possibility for adding units, weapons, and the looks of it all, is open.

You could simply create a dune mod. With the least amount of effort. Right?

[Feda]

New engine ftw. This one has so many problems that it would take me a while to write them down. :(

[X3M]

Are you talking about the dune2000 engine?

[Feda]

Yes, it isnt the best of them. Not only for gameplay, but the network engine sux too.

Best mod for this game would need new units, balance and variety, which i doubt it can be achieved with the original dune2k engine.

[THE AQIB]

well it'll be worth a try to get a new one. I can try getting the dune experience online for my game.

[X3M]

Yes, it isnt the best of them. Not only for gameplay, but the network engine sux too.

Best mod for this game would need new units, balance and variety, which i doubt it can be achieved with the original dune2k engine.

Yes please, a new dune2k engine.

New units are fun to do. But I noticed that too much units brings confusing. After all, sometimes I design 2 races with both over 25 different units. People don't want that. They want it simple.

The balance is indeed off if you do chaotic combat. For tactical combat at low amount of units however shows great balances. Perhaps that's why people who never went online think dune2k is balanced.

With variety you mean completely different units in the same class?

Anyway, I would like to know all statistics of the existing units. All that I can find are health and prices. I would like to know the amount of damage, damage types, range, speed, cool down (ROF) etc.

By calculating with these numbers, I might find out what the prices of the units really should be.

I was thinking, small adjustments.

Sonic Tank health from 3000 down to 2000.

Siege Tank +1 range

Missile Tank with +1 range

€ 750 for the Harkonnen Combat Tank (or range -1)

€ 650 for the Ordos Combat Tank (or +1 range)

And all Infantry should heal, or receive a medic in game.

[vota dc]

Atreides combat tank speed 448, rof 50

Harkonnen combat tank speed 384, rof 55

Ordos combat tank speed 512, rof 45

They have the same weapon, so same range (128) and damage (270 W_AT warhead)

Trike speed 768, rof 20

Raider speed, rof 18

Range 96, damage 180 (same warhead of light infantry)

Deviator speed 320, rof 160, range 160

Sonic tank speed 192, rof 90, damage 80, range 160

[X3M]

So the Ordos CT does more damage? Neat.

Vota dc, do you have all the statistics for us?

I also want to know what the damage effects are, the W_AT warhead for example, is it 100% on heavy?

And the most important thing is, do trooper rockets miss if the object moves to fast?

[Feda]

They have same damage only ROF differs. Anyways when they are being spammed the hark one will probably win.

Idk about troopers, I think it damages the units . I never thought of this before :D

[vota dc]

Don't know about misses

W_AT is 100% against Light and 75% against Heavy Armor, 50% vs Building and Wall, 60% vs Wood that is used for some buildings and for Trike and Raider, 20% vs Infantry

The statists are on Tibed

I have to say that playing the campaign against computer I didn't realized why they say ingame that Ordos Combat Tank is the weakest....in battle tank surely, but in campaign against AI is just faster to destroy enemy base.

[X3M]

Let's observe the statistics that matter in a 1v1 combat:

Each tank has 270 damage, yet only 202,5 against heavy armour.

Ordos

1800 Hp, ROF 45

Atreides

2100 Hp, ROF 50

Harkonnen

2700 Hp, ROF 55

All three shoot immediately before the first cool down starts to count. I always call this the "First Shot". Then a number of shots remain, of course rounded upwards for a 1v1 where not other units interfere.

Ordos lives 8.

Atreides lives 10.

Harkonnen lives 13.

All we have to do now is give the ROF as multiplying points to these shots. The higher, the longer the unit lives.

Ordos has 360, 400, 440.

Atreides has 450, 500, 550.

Harkonnen has 585, 650, 715.

Ordos has 400 < 450 and 440 < 585. This suck s. 82% average

Atreides has 450 > 400 and 550 < 650. This is medium. 99% average

Harkonnen has 585 > 440 and 650 > 550. This is overkill. 126% average

The higher speeds are supposed to be counters against these numbers, but I rather balance on forced fights. Unless there is a secondary tank that is specialized to the fighting.

If you look at assaulting a structure however, ignoring the "First Shot" since I imagine levelling an entire base, you get these figures:

Ordos 110%

Atreides 100%

Harkonnen 90%

Combine the both and we get:

Ordos 96%

Atreides 99,5%

Harkonnen 108%

I think they did something like this and kept it like this. However, I suggest that if someone is to rebalance the game. That he/she only takes into account the forces combat and first balances 2 CT, then adds the third one in the same way. After all, once the army is gone, the game is good as over with amass.

[Feda]

You cant balance shit by playing AI. Go with humans, 1v1, and see. Also for best balancing results you should have two guys with kinda same skill level.

[X3M]

I wasn't balancing here, I was merely calculating the differences between the 3 combat tanks. That's why I was asking for the exact numbers.

For effects in multi player, see the red and green arrows. Red = bad, and green = good for the player that chooses that race.

But this is combat tanks only. Other units are not taken into account. It's already clear that Ordos fails in combat in tech level 3 and beyond.

And I have seen the 1v1 battle's. Harkonnen (mass missile tanks) has still a chance against Atreides (mass sonic tanks), but Ordos obviously fails in several fronts.

[Feda]

the reply was reffering to vota dc. You are right: taking 2 tanks then balancing them and after take the 3rd is probably the best way to do it. Anyway in dune2k costs and building speeds are same , thats the bad part. The rest of the settings could be okay. Idk if i did suggest having different prices and build time for tanks in my list, if I didnt, I say it now :)

[X3M]

costs and building speeds are same

You mean the The build speeds aren't the same.

This is indeed strange, I always found the infantry build waaaay to slow. Let's take a look inside.

Combat tank

700 / 26

Missile tank

900 / 22

Quad

400 / 40

That ain't correct.

Further more, the 40 for a 400 quad, well, I guess you are supposed to have 2 light factories for every heavy factory. But your build time isn't really halved. Nor would it make sense to have 20 for 400 while you only have 26 for 700.

In my opinion, linking build times to prices should be done for all RTS games.

If the quad has 40, that's ok. But the combat tank needs to have 35 and the missile tank 45. And with having 2 light factories, the quad has to become 20.

And of course the light infantry has a build time of 22.2 with just 1 barracks.

[Feda]

I was reffering to the combat tanks. They have same build speed and cost but different attributes... bullshit.

To remove unit spam all stuff should cost more and build slower.

[X3M]

Ah, I see. Then I suggest doubling the prices. I used to do that in tiberian sun as well with tibed.

The basic €100 for the light infantry suits any Westwood game ^^.

As build time I suggest only €10 per second for a now €2000 factory. Barracks might as well cost €500 instead of €450. Anyway, with 4 barracks, your build time for 1 light infantry is 10 seconds.

If you find this to slow, then simply increase to €20 or €25 per second ;)

About the Combat tanks, if we watch the % for the effects in combat, ignoring speeds since the combat tanks are the only normal tank choice, then the prices would be, 634, 696, 786. If you have combat tanks only then. A bit rounding and increasing prices would give a nice 900, 1000, 1100.

[Feda]

I agree with the prices, and the 2000 creds for a factory thing was something i wanted to suggest too :) but with 4 barrs, to need 10 secs for a light inf, thats WAY too much. With 1 barr i suggest 6-7 secs. For troopers, if we will make tanks slower then the trooper will have to cost more and build slower (like in C&C 95) so that tanks wont become useless at all. 11-12 secs for a trooper with 1 bar should be okay (this will encourage ppl to build more barrackes to get them faster, if u get what i mean).

[X3M]

So, the costs of the producing facilities will influence building speeds on the units?

Or do you rather have it locked to to the space these structures need?

The prices divided by 15, that's exactly like in C&C :D. And you got your 6-7 seconds.

Ow, and if we double the prices, then 900-1000-1100 should actually become something like 1250-1400-1550.