Dune2000, underestimated in quality?

[X3M]

I hear people say that dune2000 is imbalanced.

???

Anyway, I thought to look up the internet what they find imbalanced. Why they don't like dune2000.

This site for example says that dune2000 is a bad, bad game. But then again, perhaps the author was a bad bad player :D. After all, he didn't know what to do in Atreides level 4 :D (Edit: he says level 4, but he means level 5, classic case of BG if you loose, awwwww)

http://www.escapistm...kroom-Dune-2000

So, anyone out there who also thinks dune2000 is imbalanced?

Or do you think, dune2000 is a good game?

Besides of stupid AI in the practise. How is the multi player?

Please tell me.

[X3M]

I noticed that you changed your icon,... twice :D

Anyway, some reviews out there are saying that dune2000 is imbalanced. Have you read his review?

When I read the mentioned preview above, then a number of things are said about the game, which seems to be very sarcastic if you ask me :). After all, I am thinking the exact opposite of this game.

Atreides to weak? (what about Ordos then?)

Ordos doesn't count because it was not in the duniverse? (So?)

Airstrike to overpowered? (hey man, it can be killed)

Airstrike stupid because it can be killed? (hey man, if it hits, it's GG)

Saboteur useless? (Boem goes the structure, by mr stealth man)

Missions to hard in the first levels?

Missions to easy in the last levels?

Maps aren't tactical. (Plenty of choke points, heck, I even abuse the dune's effects on speed)

Anyway, in my opinion, it's one of the best balanced games ever. And every unit keeps it's use.

[Feda]

The game is very good, but it IS unbalanced. Atr is overpowered. Play it online and u will see why :) hint: sonics. Ordos is too weak. In singleplayer they are balanced.

[X3M]

First things first: are the statistics different online?

If so, ignore the post down here. It only applies to single player. Or my memory of a LAN game.

Well, I hardly doubt that I will be allowed online, somehow Westwood games never allowed me in this region where I live.

All the C&C and Dune games, I never played them online. Only LAN worked for me. But my buddies too only play Blizzard games.

But Sonic Tanks are only overpowered if you don't know how to approach them, right?

I mean, correct me if I am wrong but; lets review Attacking Sonic Tanks and Defending Sonic Tanks. With a bit of practice you could handle them.

(Giving Youtube links of overpowered Sonic Tanks are welcome, showing is better then just telling)

Someone attacks with Sonic Tanks. They harm all, even themselves. I don't think that when the Sonic Tanks are moving, they keep a nice line in their rankings.

++ Counter with Combat Tanks by driving around them, into them. Then fire back by pausing your movement, and right when they fire again, move. If correct, your Combat Tanks will fire twice between every Sonic Blast. So by moving the damage is minimal to your Combat Tanks. That would be a skill thing. And it worked for me. You can even focus fire if you are dealing with just a few.

= Counter with Missile Tanks. They out range the Sonic Tanks by 1. So at least 3 Missile Tanks are returning fire. However, the health of Missile Tanks is low. They are however a bit faster then Combat Tanks. Except the Ordos version. So the same strategy can be applied.

+ Counter with Deviators. Of course you need to back away once you mind controlled a few.

= Counter with Sonic Tanks. Equal Equality Equals Equivalent Equalling Equal. nuff said. 1/3th chance that you have chosen Atreides Pokemon.

+ Quads, in a 1 v 1 battle, my Quad actually wins by dodging the Sonic Blast. Then approach the Sonic Tank for a shot, back away or move around. If you keep your distance, the Sonic Tank wont hit you. This does not work with numbers.

= Trike/Raider, same as the Quad, but freekisly slow killing of the Sonic Tank.

= Airstrike, only when it applies. Long cool down. Takes time to get to the location. Can be shot down.

+ Nuke them, only when it applies. Long cool down. But a direct hit on the group. Only one or 2 might get damage pretty badly.

Someone defends with Sonic Tanks. They harm all, even themselves. I suspect they are keeping a nice 1 line. Perhaps with other units behind them?

= Counter with Combat Tanks by driving around them, but this time not into them. Let the Sonic tanks blast themselves when they try to kill the Combat Tank. And keep moving.

= Same goes for Trikes/Raiders/Quads. Remember to keep dodging.

+ Counter with Missile Tanks. They out range the Sonic Tanks by 1. So at least 3 Missile Tanks are returning fire. However, the health of Missile Tanks is low. They are however a bit faster then Combat Tanks. Except the Ordos version. So the same strategy can be applied. Only Guarding Sonic Tanks will automatically defend themselves.

++ Counter with Deviators. Of course you need to back away once you mind controlled a few. But this time, they blast themselves. And if there is more support units, they are sure to die. With a bit of luck your Deviator survives and at least 1 unit of the enemy has died.

= Counter with Sonic Tanks. Once more: E=E=E=E=E=E.

+ Trikes/Raiders/Quads, in a 1 v 1 battle, my Quad actually wins by dodging the Sonic Blast. Then approach the Sonic Tank for a shot, back away or move around. If you keep your distance, the Sonic Tank wont hit you. The Trikes and Raiders are slow in killing.

+ Airstrike, only when it applies. Long cool down. Takes time to get to the location. Can be shot down. But if they are packed. blamblamblam,.... blamblamblam..... blamblamblam. Owww, I love that sound.

++ Nuke them,... POEF... only when it applies. Long cool down. But a direct hit on the group. Effective especially on packed groups. They will survive, but have a massive damage dealt.

Overall, Ordos has the hardest time dealing with Sonic Tanks. They also have Combat Tanks with lowest health. However, the Raider really has noticeable speed compared to the Trike.

One more thing, Sonic Tanks are slow. So once again, a wall of Sonic Tanks? I am just gona rape those harvesters. Or better yet, the Carryalls. You can't call them back immediately :)

[Nyerguds]

Yes i think dune 2000 is a good game because its oldest and good programming with passion for gamers hehe ;)

Actually, it's an outsourced remake of Dune II. Westwood never even looked at its programming afaik -_-

[MrFlibble]

I've never really given any thought to the balance in Dune 2000. It plays just fine, at least in SP. But I have other problems with it, namely:

1) The game had been conceived and marketed as a remake of Dune II, however, it does a pretty lousy job as a remake. It's much more of "C&C with names of Dune II units and structures" than anything else. What's more, the introduction of C&C rock-paper-scissors mechanics also made the tech trees of the three Houses much more similar. For example, in Dune II, the Harkonnens have Troopers from the start, the Atreides only have Light Infantry and the Ordos have both, with Troopers appearing later on in the game. In Dune2k, Light Infantry is Minigunner infantry, and Troopers are Bazooka infantry, and all Houses have both since otherwise a huge imbalance will ensue. Same with light vehicles. The Siege Tank is just a fancy name for Nod artillery etc. etc. All of this is just very obviously Command & Conquer in Dune II's clothing, up to Airstrikes disguised as Ornithopter attacks.

2) All of the above begs the second question, which is, if Dune 2000 is so Command & Conquer, what new stuff does it have to offer in comparison with C&C and/or Red Alert? The answer here is, very little. The feuding Houses are very much like one another in terms of technologies, and the relatively short campaigns are mostly repetitive in their objectives, story and they way they can be played through. Units and structures are less diverse compared to either C&C and Red Alert, which was only somewhat remedied by the patch which introduced some more C&C unit clones in multiplayer/skirmish. The game has nice FMV cutscenes with memorable characters, but they hardly match the intrigue and action of FMV briefings in the C&C games. One of the huge pros of Dun2k is its excellent soundtrack by Frank K, but that's about it.

There are actually more issues here (but less bothersome IMO), and one is that the game is very dated by the standards of the year it came out in. IIRC I've read somewhere that Westwood needed some fill-in product because the release of Tiberian Sun was delayed, so they made Dune 2000. Obviously the best way to create such a product is to create an add-on or outright clone of an existing game. Thus Dune 2000 brought very little new things to the RTS genre.

[X3M]

MrFibble, you are absolutely right.

The only thing that isn't a C&C clone would be the Sonic Tank and Deviator. All other are considered to be copies. Even the Quad is just a Recon Bike.

They could have done a better job on it. Just a few extra units. Or a little difference in the units for all races. Somewhat sneek previews of what was yet to come.

Examples would be, 2 rockets fired by the Harkonnen Missile tank.

The Ordos Combat Tank could be hovering.

A hovering Missile tank for the Ordos. (Sneek preview for the EBFD version and the MRLS of tiberian sun)

The Harkonnen trooper is both trooper and light infantry.

The Ordos could have it just like in Dune2000, light and trooper separate.

The Atreides has no Trooper, but instead the first kindjal? After all, there are thumpers, why not kindjal? Those Grenadiers don't count in my opinion.

The Siege Tank could have had more range as artillery. Or it could have been a double barrelled tank.

Lasers would have been "new" at that point :)

[MrFlibble]

Well, the point was to create a "new" game with minimal effort. Real new stuff would have required more design work.

Besides, incorporating features from Tiberian Sun would have kind of ruined the surprise and the novelty effect when it would've come out.

Also, isn't it a bit anachronistic to expect "sneak previews" of things from Emperor in Dune 2000? I'm pretty sure no one even thought about Emperor in 1998.

[Nyerguds]

Heck, Dune2k's internals are pretty much a clone of Dune II as well, using one file with all graphics frames just like Dune II's units#.shp files. They didn't even use Westwood's later innovations like separated SHP files for buildings and units, or even the .mix archive format.

[X3M]

I thought they used the programming what was used in C&C dawn en RA? Or is it still the same?

[Feda]

If you need proof of the sonic being op go watch my channel (link in description) or shaokhan's video. Then compare it with the deviator. Even the devastator needs an open field to smash sonics. In online, atr players are focusing on jamming the entrances with sonics , then keep getting more. Not to mention that if you manage to approach to the sonicsv(with devs) the enemy has troopers behind the sonics which just OWN devs. This game is pretty much about getting as many units as posible, while c&c offered low money , slower units, but more variety, more tactics and better balance. Its something I've always complained about. I like the idea of sonic tanks and deviators, but the speed and ability to create so many units kills almost all tactics. I like the game, but i cant stay and not mention the bad things it has (like some other ppl from our hamachi community do).

Mass sonics will cover each other and if controlled well they dont really kill each others. Dune 2k requires good control, but on a big scale, of huge unit groups. This is something i never liked, i loved the way C&C 95 was.

[THE AQIB]

I agree that d2k is one nice idea for a game but also that it is imbalanced. Ordos is the most weakest and falls fast in large maps even in practice mode due to lack of power. Ordos got nothing compared to Atriedes and Harkonnen. No missile tank spl tank just releases GAS!!! Addition of stealth raider was nice but beyond it Ordos is hopeless. And i have no idea what was the use of a grenadier?? It could have been something else more balanced. Sonic tanks in my opinion are not that bad but ain't my choice of transport. Harkonnen has upper hand due to sardukar, devastator and an unbeatable death hand missile. Kinda damages the balance.

[Feda]

Death Hand Missile just sux ass.. Too innacurate :( i know that the airstrike can be killed, but it DOES hit the target, while with the DHM u need luck :D

Harkonnens will have a hard time playing against atreides in a long game, thats why harks have to rush asap. (online thing). When playing AI, u can kill them even with Ordos , they are so weak ..

The Grenadier is pretty much a useless and messed up copy of the grenadiers from C&C and RA. In theory he should be good against light vehs and inf, but in practice it just sucks because of the speed of the game and the vehicles.

[THE AQIB]

That's one thing i lyk about Atriedes... "AIRSTRIKE"!!! Available even before the deathhand...

[X3M]

Grenadiers good against buildings and infantry. But they indeed fail against the dune2000 vehicles. They are just too fast. While in C&C and RA there where some slow and low armour tanks. Even though they where all anti infantry except the stealth tank.

And you are right. When it comes to mass units. The Ordos immediately fail. The Harkonnen however have the best combat tanks. So use them. But only as a rush. Once the Sonic Tank technology kicks in. The Atreides win.

So are there some counters, not amass tactics, but just very annoying tactics against the Sonic Tanks? Missile launcher harassing perhaps? Hit/run/hit/run etc.? The missile tank has +1 range compared to the sonic tank? Once the Sonic Tanks move out. They are slightly weaker due to spreading out. A wall of Missile launchers works? Just asking. Is there something that keeps the Sonic Tanks from attacking chaotic?

A nuke kills troopers, right? Then the devs have a chance?

I would understand if players choose tech level 3, where the 3 races have the "same". Or tech level 6, where thanks to the starport, the 3 races have the "same".

[MrFlibble]

The only thing that isn't a C&C clone would be the Sonic Tank and Deviator. All other are considered to be copies. Even the Quad is just a Recon Bike.

BTW, I've just thought that the Sonic Tank is essentially a C&C Flame Tank with a huge firing range, slow rate of fire and very slow movement/turning speed.

In fact, the area of effect flame weapon attack in C&C might have been at least in part inspired by the sonic weapon in Dune II. Maybe.

[X3M]

The flame tank has a 1 region only effect. It's actually a 1 ranged splash weapon. The sonic tank has 6 or 10 regions effect, it's an "in line" splash effect.

The fact that an entire army burns up is a hard coded trigger. And the splash of the flame tank can be compared to that of the other tanks. Only it's very effective against infantry.

The flame tank in tiberian sun has also "in line" splash effect without setting an entire army into ashes, for comparison.

By the way, isn't the damage of a sonic tank low at range 1?

[Nyerguds]

I thought they used the programming what was used in C&C dawn en RA? Or is it still the same?

It's nothing like C&C1 or RA. As far as I can see, the only thing they based themselves on was how Dune II worked.

The fact that an entire army burns up is a hard coded trigger.

Umm... I hope this isn't about the Flame Tank, because there's no special code involved in C&C1 flame weapons, except the odd logic to set buildings on fire (which I still haven't figured out).

The Flame Tank has 2 range, but its high spread rate (8, same as the nuke, but keep in mind spread is per pixel on screen, and relative to the initial damage) just makes sure anything between itself and its target is most likely incinerated too.

[THE AQIB]

So anyway to fix the ai? Or anyway to open dune2000.dat? If those are possible dune will be freely editable. Till then face the problematic ai. I still like it though.

[Feda]

It should be able to be opened, although we need programmers for this.

[X3M]

Regarding the C&C dawn flame tank.

The 2 range is due to splash damage. When you target an enemy, the flame tank will move up close to just 1 range since it thinks it has only 1 range.

This can be compared to the example: RA; artillery or V2-launcher. Aiming just 1 range on ground before the target, and some actually still get damaged.

The balista/catapult from WC2 has the same effect. And I abused that fact a lot ^^.

So I guess the 2 range is an illusion. Also, the sideways are damaged as well. If you think about it. There are 4 area's targeted by the flame tank.

Regarding the dune 2000 AI.

I got a complete wish list which could be use for any RTS. But has anyone cracked the program? Perhaps the one who made the Tibed for dune 2000?

[THE AQIB]

who made tha tibed anyways?

[Feda]

Regarding the C&C dawn flame tank.

The 2 range is due to splash damage. When you target an enemy, the flame tank will move up close to just 1 range since it thinks it has only 1 range.

This can be compared to the example: RA; artillery or V2-launcher. Aiming just 1 range on ground before the target, and some actually still get damaged.

The balista/catapult from WC2 has the same effect. And I abused that fact a lot ^^.

So I guess the 2 range is an illusion. Also, the sideways are damaged as well. If you think about it. There are 4 area's targeted by the flame tank.

Regarding the dune 2000 AI.

I got a complete wish list which could be use for any RTS. But has anyone cracked the program? Perhaps the one who made the Tibed for dune 2000?

TibEd is using .bin files, AI is having dune2000.dat.

[THE AQIB]

Who was the person who created the patch for subhouses?

[Feda]

MVI and CCHyper.