A few questions...

[HeWhoHunts]

First off its great to have found a form that still discusses old RT:2, this game is still as deep, and addictive as ever!

Just a few questions I am wondering about, hope yall can help me:

1. What Scenarios have altered prime rates? Prime is a good indicator of the economy but I read somewhere that prime rates have been altered in some of the scenarios, does anyone know which ones (in RT2:Plat)
   
2. What does stock splitting mean? If my stock splits “2 for 1” does that mean instead of having 20 shears worth (for example) 1 dollar each I now have 40 shears worth 1 dollar each?
   
3. Is it possible to bankrupt the AI player (on expert)? Should I get a majority in the company they own, assume chair, wreck the thing, and then start shorting? I’ve been thinking it would work but there is something about doing the whole “assume chair and destroy” thing that rubs me as cheating. Any other Ideas?
   
4. Does anyone know where I can get some good maps? I read on this form that I find them in the “map section” but I can’t seem to find it :(, to add to that does anyone have any good recommendations?
   
5. I am aware there is a maintenance cost associated with buildings like sand/water towers but what of the actual stations themselves? Furthermore is there a higher maintenance cost for a large station over a small?
   

Thanks!

[Gwizz]

• What Scenarios have altered prime rates? Prime is a good indicator of the economy but I read somewhere that prime rates have been altered in some of the scenarios, does anyone know which ones (in RT2:Plat)
  

I have done it and I assume others have as well. It is something I pay little attention to though, So I can't help you on this question.

• What does stock splitting mean? If my stock splits “2 for 1” does that mean instead of having 20 shears worth (for example) 1 dollar each I now have 40 shears worth 1 dollar each?
  

It is rare to have a stock split double the stock value. A split normally does causes an increase in the value of a stock but less than double.

• Is it possible to bankrupt the AI player (on expert)? Should I get a majority in the company they own, assume chair, wreck the thing, and then start shorting? I’ve been thinking it would work but there is something about doing the whole “assume chair and destroy” thing that rubs me as cheating. Any other Ideas?
  

It is possible although they do a good job of bankrupting themselves. Controlling the AI operation is called tycooning. It was done by a number of the tycoons through out history. I seldom destroy an IA, I try to use it's own money to improve it, Supply my own railroad with cargo and then have the AI take out bonds and use this money to buy back its' own stock. I keep one share more than all of the sold AI's shares. This way I keep control of the AI. This also can reduce the value of the AI stock causing the chairman's net worth to drop.

• Does anyone know where I can get some good maps? I read on this form that I find them in the “map section” but I can’t seem to find it :(, to add to that does anyone have any good recommendations?
  

I'll add a link to the maps on this site and Hawk has duplicate maps as a back up. Some of the later maps can be downloaded from this forum

• I am aware there is a maintenance cost associated with buildings like sand/water towers but what of the actual stations themselves? Furthermore is there a higher maintenance cost for a large station over a small?
  

There is a manual available on board. I'll look for it. Nearly every thing has operational expenses. You can see them in your companies books by clicking on the tabs. The different managers you can hire can offer changes to theses fees.

[Gwizz]

http://theterminal.dune2k.com/?p=rrt2-files-maps

[jeffryfisher]

What Scenarios have altered prime rates?

My US History mega-scenario alters prime rate as a result of federal reserve policy. With over 400 events, it's a game built on top of a game. Are you game?

What does stock splitting mean? If my stock splits “2 for 1” does that mean instead of having 20 shears worth (for example) 1 dollar each I now have 40 shears worth 1 dollar each?

It means that instead of 1000 shares at $100 each, you have 2000 at $50 each. IOW, all it does is to keep the share price below 100/sh. If there appears to be a change in total value, it's only the contemporaneous end-of-year reconciliation that you can't see well.

Is it possible to bankrupt the AI player (on expert)?

The computer players will bankrupt themselves unless you intervene to save them. They are morons. My US History scenario won't allow you to assume new chairmanships, so you won't be distracted from running your own company.

Remember that the object of capitalism is to die with the most toys (and cash). That's not "most" as in more than the crushed victims of your military machine. It's "most" as in more than any other amount that you could have following any other plan. What someone else has is irrelevant. If your maximum wealth comes from also maximizing someone else's wealth, then that's what you do.

Does anyone know where I can get some good maps?

Yes

I read on this form that I find them in the “map section” but I can’t seem to find it

See my scenario link above

I am aware there is a maintenance cost associated with buildings like sand/water towers but what of the actual stations themselves? Furthermore is there a higher maintenance cost for a large station over a small?

:O

[HeWhoHunts]

• I am aware there is a maintenance cost associated with buildings like sand/water towers but what of the actual stations themselves? Furthermore is there a higher maintenance cost for a large station over a small?
  

There is a manual available on board. I'll look for it. Nearly every thing has operational expenses. You can see them in your companies books by clicking on the tabs. The different managers you can hire can offer changes to theses fees.

So does that mean the stations themselves actually cost maintenance? Like the small, medium, large stations you lay on the actual track?

Also In all my time of playing I think I have only seen the AI bankrupt itself once, for the most part their personal wealth is very low (compared to mine anyways) but they are usually conservative enough to keep out of the red.

It means that instead of 1000 shares at $100 each, you have 2000 at $50 each. IOW, all it does is to keep the share price below 100/sh. If there appears to be a change in total value, it's only the contemporaneous end-of-year reconciliation that you can't see well.

So there is really nothing good about shears splitting? Just means you have to buy more if you want to control your company?

[Gwizz]

The following link should give you information from those who have learned a lot about how the game works inside the source code and out. Some of the links may be dead.

I look forward to stock splits. If I have a controlling number of stocks, a split lets me gain some on the other stock holders.

AI RRs gets extra cars out of thin air and they don't need service, sand or water, although some service is placed at their stations. Stations earn income and I believe they have expenses factored into the earnings. We just don't see it. A large station can earn more and have higher expenses. The value of Individual cargo depends upon distance hauled, the cells are counted straight as the birds fly. I good way to understand costs, is to look at what the managers can do for you.

I didn't find the RRT2 Manuel. I'll look again later.

[HeWhoHunts]

thank you for your help guys, again its great that this form exist.

How do I find how much my company is worth during the regular month? usually I can see it at the year end report, but is there a way to see that number at any moment?

[Gwizz]

I seldom look at the company books. On the right are some tabs. Push on them to see what is under these.

[CrownVic95]

thank you for your help guys, again its great that this form exist.

How do I find how much my company is worth during the regular month? usually I can see it at the year end report, but is there a way to see that number at any moment?

At the bottom center of the screen there is a window showing stations, trains, players, and companies at your option. Click on the company tab and then click on the "list screen" button at the lower right of that window. It will expand to a full screen financial summary for all companies in the game. Look at the equity number on the right of the screen to see your company's value at any time in the game.

[HeWhoHunts]

Few more questions on Freight distances and good old supply & demand.

1) Does distance play a role in freight? I know with passengers distance is everything, but what about industrial cargo? If I get milk from Stoke and send it to Manchester would I get less money than if I sent it from London?

2) How long does it take for demand to go back up? I remember reading somewhere that its 1 per six months, but can anyone confirm that?

3) Does a higher demand mean higher prices? For example if a city has a Food Demand of 5, and another a demand of 3, will I get more money bringing food to the first city?

[Gwizz]

Few more questions on Freight distances and good old supply & demand.

1) Does distance play a role in freight? I know with passengers distance is everything, but what about industrial cargo? If I get milk from Stoke and send it to Manchester would I get less money than if I sent it from London?

-------Yes straight as the crow flies. Going in a circle does not add distance or extra pay.

2) How long does it take for demand to go back up? I remember reading somewhere that its 1 per six months, but can anyone confirm that?

------- Can't help on that one. Demand seems to be somewhat random.

I think it depends somewhat on how well the station is served as well as time.

3) Does a higher demand mean higher prices? For example if a city has a Food Demand of 5, and another a demand of 3, will I get more money bringing food to the first city?

------- Yes.

[jeffryfisher]

1) Does distance play a role in freight?

Yes, but perhaps not enough to pay for the fuel, or not as much as the same engine could earn hauling short and then hauling something else.

Outside of passengers (& troops) and mail, freight can be divided into two categories. I call them short and long. I think there's a data file included with the game that shows a "distance" factor for each type of cargo. Short freight has a factor of 1, and long freight has a factor of 2. You always want to haul short freight as short as you can, with a possible minimum distance of maybe 10 cells.

My experience with "long" freight is that it gains just enough from added distance that I don't shy away from long hauls -- but long freight doesn't pay distance so well that I deliberately stretch it. Instead, with long freight, I let supply and demand (and network congestion) determine where it goes.

2) How long does it take for demand to go back up? I remember reading somewhere that its 1 per six months, but can anyone confirm that?

I don't know all of the factors, but the number of buildings demanding a cargo seems to be one. I think that hauling away an industry's output (and delivering it somewhere it's wanted) is another.

[HeWhoHunts]

Yes, but perhaps not enough to pay for the fuel, or not as much as the same engine could earn hauling short and then hauling something else.

Outside of passengers (& troops) and mail, freight can be divided into two categories. I call them short and long. I think there's a data file included with the game that shows a "distance" factor for each type of cargo. Short freight has a factor of 1, and long freight has a factor of 2. You always want to haul short freight as short as you can, with a possible minimum distance of maybe 10 cells.

My experience with "long" freight is that it gains just enough from added distance that I don't shy away from long hauls -- but long freight doesn't pay distance so well that I deliberately stretch it. Instead, with long freight, I let supply and demand (and network congestion) determine where it goes

Really, that's extremely interesting.

I don't suppose you know where I can find this list?

[Gwizz]

Look in your RRT2 gold version folder for the Strategy Guide. Other RRT2 versions may be a bit different. The last very short version may not give you any strategy guides at all.

You may know this: Hit the windows & E keys. From the list click on C drive or where ever you installed the RT2 program and then on the Railroad Tycoon II folder list. (gold)

The strategy Guide is near the bottom of the list not in a folder. There are other charts, etc. done by past players.

You might find more of you Search the net for "Railroad Tycoon II strategy guide cargo values".

[jeffryfisher]

I don't suppose you know where I can find this list?

I thought I had received it on my RT2 Platinum CD, along with the manual etc. However, it may have been something I downloaded long ago.

Anyway, it doesn't have all of the cargos, and its numbers don't exactly match what I can see inside the EXE file, so I have made my own sheet with numbers straight from v1.56 (the last platinum patch) of the EXE file. I'll upload it to a new thread calling attention to its presence.

[Long Diagonal]

1. Is it the owner of the train or the station who gets the income from hotels, restaurants, etc.?  Logically, it should be the station owner, but the wording of the building descriptions makes it sound like the train's owner gets the extra money.
2. Do industries get paid when their products are loaded, or when they're delivered?  Is there a standard formula for sales prices based on economic conditions and base cargo value?  Also, how much overhead do industries have?
3. Are there any maps besides Coal Country and Local Industry that reduce or eliminate passengers?
4. Do warehouses, post offices and other storage faciilities affect the value of a cargo, the time until it disappears, or both?
5. Is the rot factor applied to all the cargo of a given type at a given time equally?  If so, is the average or maximum age applied?  If not, are the newest or oldest cargoes loaded first?

     thanks --

          Long Diagonal

[outofmage]

Long Diagonal I'll try my best to answer all your questions.

1. I am sure it's the station owner who gets the revenue from restaurants, hotals and saloons. Descriptions in this game sometimes can be ambiguous or even wrong, don't trust them. 

2. I am not 100% sure about this, but my experience and tests show that only when the goods produced by the industry get delievered, it's going to profit from it. 

If any goods produced by an industry disappear because of the late of pick up, it's going to lose some money according to how much goods disappeared.

According to the Strategy Guild written by developers of RRTII, each better eco condition inscreases cargo value by 10%. From my experience, it's not always exactly 10%. The formula must be quite complecated, I can't figure out the whole equation. As for overhead, I don't believe there are overhead calculated for industries. If you don't supply a manufacture, it's profit will always stay at $0, indicating industry profit may not take overhead account.

3. I don't know, you can ask loco_motive, he is more familiar with all these maps. I can't recall any stand-alone map that eliminate passengers, but a lot of campain maps do this to meet its campain set-up scenario.

4. Storage facillities increase max pick-up time, and a little bit of cargo value caused by delayed pick-up. This small inscrease in cargo value is because the storage time is expanded, the losing value caused by delayed pick-up for the same delaying time is proportionally decreased.

5. I don't quite understand the first 2 questions. Rot factor is mentioned once in Strategy Guild The later the date, the rot factor is increased as trains become faster.. This is how I understand rot factor: it's a date related variable, as the game year getting late, the cargo value is slowly decreased. But the speed of this decrease also slows down. They use some kind of formula to calculate this factor, it's the main reason that causes 19th century is far more profitable than 21st century. If you start in 1800, the rot factor is so small that a 500-cell away passenger worths 10,000K per load.

However, I don't know the whole story of the rot factor, maybe each kind of cargo has it's own rate of dropping value.

[loco_motive]

In the spirit of aouofmage's apt comment, "descriptions in this game sometimes can be ambiguous or even wrong, don't trust them", I thought I would reply what I recall, right or wrong, just for the difference. And of course, you should read all the documents in your TSC package, both paper and in the RRT2 subdirectory anyhow. And do some testing of your own to supplement everything you read.

 

All my comments are based on full economic and industry models and recollections only.

 

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1. I agree with outofmage.

 

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2a. Industry income is generated when (1) finished product is delivered to a site that demands that product and (2) input cargo is delivered to a 2-input industry. Industry income grades from one level to another over time, either up or down and is probably based on several other factors besides delivery quantity and timing to a minor degree.

 

Whether delivery of grain to a cattle ranch creates industry profits for the cattle ranch, I don't think so. The increased delivery of cattle certainly does though. Since grain fields produce 2 rather than 3, I can't recall if they can be as profitable as cattle. It should also be noted that gross oversupply of grain to cattle will make all the grains fully profitable, since there is a demand. The demand level (0-9) is irrelevant.

 

I have never tested the effect of particularly old cargo delivered from storage on the industry income of the source of the cargo. About all I know about that is cargo income is preserved correctly but pickup source is changed, so effect on industry income could be none or something unexpected.

 

All industry income for the year is paid at year-end so it matters not when during the year you purchase the industry, as long as you beat the AI to it. (Certain events must actually be written  beginning of next year to pick up current year industry income.)

 

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2b. I assume you are asking about industry income and not cargo income here. As an example of industry investment yield, it might run as follows for annual requirements. These of course are only guidelines based on annual requirements. By doubling the annual requirements for the 2-input industry you might push the 25% to 30%, for example. I don't recall economic level being a factor. Distance shipped is not a factor.

 

2-input industry
Getting one of 2 inputs                                   8 1/3%
Getting both inputs, no deliveries                  16 2/3%
Full inputs + Delivering all product                    25%

 

1-input industry
Cattle getting no grain, food delivered           16 2/3%
Cattle getting grain, food delivered                   25%

 

Of course there is a standard formula, we just don't know what it is. Various members have been trying from time to time to get the code for years, but to no avail.

 

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2c. Agreed, no overhead. That is, no non-proportional industry expenses.

 

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3. If you're versed enough to know those two and no others, probably not. None come to mind anyhow. Not to say you can't take Heartland (or any other map) and try it that way if you want. Although I'd probably loosen up the connected track requirement first, maybe allowing connected to any track. Otherwise nothing stopping you from doing whatever you want. Certainly get familiar with the editor if you're not already. Its very straight forward (for some of us anyhow).

 

In late date scenarios, like TSC Campaign 18 Antarctica Rising, passengers and mail are likely the least profitable item on the menu, so any of these might suit your fancy.

 

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4. Just the time until it disappears if its in the originating station at the time. This cannot be delayed any further. If you transfer cargo to a train, and then do a re-consist, the cargo could disappear, something we are all too familiar with. The length of time a cargo survives in a station is called "days to deliver", badly named, should be called "days to pickup". Rot rate is neither effected nor related.

 

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5. Rot relates to cargo income, not industry income. I believe rot is calculated on each piece of cargo independently and that the oldest cargo is loaded first. Basic rot rate is a function of cargo type, and is quite flat, ie; say, 1 per interval, although it may scale slightly for shipping distance. It may scale more fully  for economic level  and demand level. Rot does not vary by where the cargo is; in the station, in storage, on a slow-moving or stopped train. There is a residual limit to cargo value, where the rot stops, at around 2/3 iirc. Factors such as game date may effect that linearity slightly, hard to measure. Rot was also shown in a past study to likely be less for various statuses of company ownership by the AI.

[Gwizz]

A few snippets:

 

I respect locomotive's map skills.  Like Steve Larson, who was or maybe still is a game programer,  He also has a talent with numbers. 

Steve and locomotive have taught me a lot.

 

If I remember correctly, Steve believed that long distance hauls add value to a cargo. 

 

There is both a connection between your costs and the costs that an AI pays for cargo hauls.

 

The AI RR has a limited number of costs, plus it does pull cargo out of thin air and is paid for every haul whether or not there is a demand for the cargo. 

 

The total transportation costs are subtracted from profit.  Costs also includes locomotive operating expenses and track grades, etc. 

Each locomotive is different.  So it is not easy to figure out  how the math works.

 

With PopTop's statement that random generated numbers are  included in much of the programing math.   Without the randomness the game would be too easy.    

 

I believe there is a variable gain in profit for a long distance haul by one train.  If 3 trains hauled an equal distance to that of the one train, the total transportation costs would be higher.  The three trains pay expenses for four extra stations and most likely have a slower average speed.  It makes sense for long hauls to be more efficient.

 

Again if I understand correctly, Demand is only a small part of the math.  If demand is high, profit will be higher. 

Rot time in a station does reduce the value of cargo.  But, rot time on a partially loaded train is less. 

(Or, Maybe there is no rot on loaded cargo, while a train waits for more cargo at a station.  I'm not sure. Just don't unload to reload a waiting train) 

When the train is moving cargo rot is slower.  The RR will earn proportionally less, when loading rotten cargo at a station. 

The oldest cargo is loaded first but unloaded last when delivered.  It is possible that no rot takes place at all , while the cargo is on the train moving or stopped.

[Silverback]

An old thread revived I see!

 

 

From the strategy guide "Depoted cargo does NOT rot. HINT." I THINK rot means that the cargo will wait forever rather than disappear after a time, I don't think rot reduces the value though, I think time to deliver does.

 

See the Strategy guide with the Platinum Edition under supply for other details regarding delivery time - Chapter 2  (especially tables 2.1 and 2.2)

 

This ties up with my own observations (playing at Hard or Expert)

The longer the distance from  source to destination station the more the cargo will pay on arrival if delivered quickly enough

The value of the cargo reduces over time - the longer the train takes to deliver it after loading the cargo value will reduce.

 

so there is a need to balance speed and distance.

 

the game date also makes a difference, so without the algorithms used its difficult to say exactly how. This MAY also be affected by the economic status and growth set by the map maker on the economy screen.

 

The supply and demand model changes with the difficulty level too.  At the highest difficulty level you get 20% of the value for no demand, 50% for 0 demand and 140% for level 9 demand - 100% is level 5.

 

Again if you have the Platinum edition its in the strategy guide. 

 

Later patches MAY modify what the strategy guide says so beware - See the jerryfisher posts.

[MaglevForever]

Silverback, I second what you said about rot versus time to deliver. I really don't worry about rot. Normally I use one train for a complete industry chain (Example: Wool-Goods-City demanding goods). When I do this I avoid almost all rot. The raw materials aren't high value and the higher the value the more it can fall. Milk and produce are the only exceptions. I don't care if I just manage to pick up the other raw materials before they disappear. From my understanding rot is reset to zero when conversion takes place so food, goods etc. are fresh when made. I then haul them away immediately on the same train for max profit. Anybody who can tell me I am wrong and why please do so.

 

I could go on and on about time to deliver, but I will just say that it is an extremely important part of maximizing revenue in the game. Especially in the second century and increasing until in the present day and future it becomes critical.

 

Long diagonal, you were looking for maps with few passengers/mail. Have you tried: http://forum.dune2k.com/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=786? It isn't in the downloads section from what I can see. It is a difficult scenario.