Delta Airlines & Saudi Arabia

[ErasOmnius]

THis is wrong on so many levels. It seems hard to believe that Delta Airlines, one of the largest airlines in the US, is complying with this dictate from the Arabian government. Jews cannot ride the plane to Saudi Arabia, nor can Christians who are wearing crosses.

[athanasios]

True Christians do not wear crosses! But besides from this, it is true that it is racial and religious discrimination. Anyway this is the least we would expect from Saudi Arabia, the worst dictatorship in the world, a place where you can loose your head not because you have committed any crime but simply because it pleasures the dictators. If USA was a democratic country Delta airplanes should be already forced on ground.

[DenisAtreides]

Wow. Detroit Metro is a major hub for Delta Airlines. I am finding very hard to fathom that Delta wold kow-tow to the billionaire shieks of the Middle East. There must be some major money passing behind the scenes. It seems almost like Nazi Germany in the 1930's, where Jews weren't allowed to ride certain buses or trains.

I see that a United States Senator from IL wants to have a look see into the whole thing. A great big shout out to Mark Kirk from the Land of Lincoln. Maybe Congress can do some good for once, and get to the bottom of this.

[TheCurtOne]

I am trying to figure out of the Saudi gov't is trying to protect the birthplace of Islam, which doesn't really seem to be all that anti-Hebrew. Or if they are simply anti-Semites. Or maybe it's the Palestinian problem. The Saudi gov't isn't talking much about the whole event that they are causing. They should at least release some kind of statement.

WAIT: This just in a few minutes ago: Saudi Arabia denies discriminating against Jewish passengers. After reading this, it seems that many of the parrties involved are in denial. Delta, the Saudi gov't, others.

[athanasios]

Ok then let's take our Bibles and go for vacations in Saudi Arabia! But make sure you have made a good life insurance as our families won't see us again...

[DenisAtreides]

A person has to wonder why the Saudi government agencies are so strict about Jewish people. All of the Arabians of Michigan and Ontario seem to be pretty friendly. They all want to get along with everybody else, and keep the smiles flowing.

Does the government of Arabia do this to justify staying in power? In other words, if they keep the citizens riled up, the average Arabian will forget their miserable existence serving the man. The man being the sheiks who rule the country. Because the last I checked, Jews weren't exactly a terrorist threat. Neither were people wearing crosses or carrying Bibles.

I wonder what it's like flying in and out of Dubai or Kuwait City. They seem to be major hubs for the region, but no one has complined that they are discriminatory.

[athanasios]

Pay a visit there and you will see with your own eyes the racial discrimination.

[Lord J]

So... just playing devil's advocate (mostly) here, but Saudi Arabia is a sovereign nation. That means they have the right to make their own rules for the good of their ruling party. Sure, it's gauche (to say the least), and yes, if it offends you, take to the streets! But really, if they want to keep Jews and Catholics out of their country, who are we to judge them?

More importantly, if this is true (which, apparently, it is not) it means one simple thing: the Saudi government cannot control their populace well enough to keep foreign nationals safe.

Now think about that for a second. Do you want to go to a country that cannot even control itself? Think about this: do you want to go somewhere you're not wanted?

Ok, now on to Denis' question: Unfortunately, Islam as a religion is nothing like its government counterparts. The abuses that many Middle Eastern governments perpetuate upon their people are in no way supported by the Qur'an, nor any meaningful study of the religion. This is a fascinating paper on the topic, which may be propaganda, but it's pretty cool.

I personally think that religion in government produces abuse as a matter of course. I'm not saying that all abuse in government is due to religion per se (remember Stalin?), but I think it's a nicely rounded hypothesis with which to begin a debate. Interestingly, if you look at the form of "Communism" under Stalin, you see a pattern in behavior not unlike religious fervor. I wonder if religion is not the problem, specifically, but a general inability/unwillingness to engage in critical thinking.

[athanasios]

YHWH has already judged them. It is not their country and soon they will eat dust. Got it dude?

[Wolf]

It's nice to see that you're not scared of PRP anymore, ath. All that bluster about not posting really just bluster, huh?

No, but for once, I kind of agree with you. Saudi Arabia is an extremely repressive regime that sanctions unconscionable things. I'm not just talking about a lack of democracy; I'm talking about a basic lack of respect for human rights. But that doesn't mean I'm going to commit the ultimate sin of speaking for God and cowardly imply that they will be "destroyed" or... something. Or say that it isn't "their" country which I find vaguely discriminatory and entirely revolting. I leave that to you folk.

[ErasOmnius]

Lord J, that really is playing the devil's Advocate. Saying that Saudi Arabia can just freely discriminate like this against Jews and Christians, and get away with it; is like saying dis-allowing both groups from being able to work in the largest oil-exporting nation in the world. Other patterns of life that are more behavioral, and less explicit than involving a yamulke or a cross, I'm sure they have discriminatory practices against, as well. That would be wrong, too.

[Andrew]

the Saudi government cannot control their populace well enough to keep foreign nationals safe.

I know one of the (supposed) first Canadian tourists that visited there and they had 2 armed guards with ak47 with them at all times. And Saudi Secret Police agents randomly inspecting/following them. Guards were there for protection. Not that they had Muslims coming up and attacking them or anything, they were just a bus of tourists that visited some old places (tombs, dams, towns, forts).

Oh and guess what? The female tourists made sure to wear Hijab when out and about to respect local culture (and not just flaunt around without one to anger the locals). Saudi Arabia is a nice looking country (geographically and some architecture), but so are most countries. It's not just a big desert full of evil Muslims.

YHWH has already judged them. It is not their country and soon they will eat dust. Got it dude?

Are you saying that Christian God has judged Muslims there and that they will eat dust? That seems quite racist (no different than radical Muslims wanting to kill non Muslims).

Saudi Arabia is pretty much the most hardcore Muslim country out there (they have the Muslim Kaaba and many other religious artifacts/locations).

I'm guessing you havn't visited Muslim countries nor care for their culture or institutions, and think they should all change to whatever you want.

@eras

I'd agree with LordJ that it is their country you can't go imposing cultural reform for something that has been in place for 2000(?) years. Sure some of the things are wrong and should be changed (for betterment of their country, not to make westerners happy). If they want to discriminate against Jews/Christians, then I guess they can. Jews/Christians discriminate all the time (Jewish treatment of Palestinians and putting up big walls and creating ghettos).

I'm sure we could have some philosophers/ethics argue about it, but it currently is just the way things are.

[Lord J]

Andrew: Interesting. I should note that I'm not making the argument that Saudis cannot protect foreign nationals; only that this rumor-mongering implies such a reality. Either way, your description is very intriguing. As someone who (as far as I know) has never seen a fully-automatic assault rifle in person, the idea of an armed escort seems quite intimidating.

Eras, there are a lot of jobs available to Jews and icon-prone Christians that won't involve potential murder. All in all, I suspect that racism/religious bigotry is a symptom of a more wide-spread problem in the Middle East. Unfortunately, the area is one of the richest areas in the world, and therefore we are all dependent upon understanding and conforming to their cultural and/or political norms to maintain stability.

The spice, after all, must flow.

[ErasOmnius]

Oh and guess what? The female tourists made sure to wear Hijab when out and about to respect local culture (and not just flaunt around without one to anger the locals). Saudi Arabia is a nice looking country (geographically and some architecture), but so are most countries. It's not just a big desert full of evil Muslims. If they want to discriminate against Jews/Christians, then I guess they can. Jews/Christians discriminate all the time (Jewish treatment of Palestinians and putting up big walls and creating ghettos).

I'm sure we could have some philosophers/ethics argue about it, but it currently is just the way things are.

This is a bit of a stretch, don't you think Andrew? I understand that the Persian Gulf States are holding 40% of the world's cards right now [oil], but to say that the way they treat women is a type of positive-oriented culture, seems too far. (Can't drive, can't go out in public without a male escort off the top of the head).

Nice looking country? There are nice looking places in all countries. They are building giant hotels in Mecca and Medina to accommodate the yearly Pilgrammage, and Riyadh is a jewel in the middle of the Desert; so all of the above and more is admirable.

Racial and ethnic discrimination in the past and present is ever prevelant and wrong. It is not just against Christians and Jews, but basically against all non Sunni Muslims. Part of it is because of Mecca and its' religious significance. Another part is because they cannot allow any new ideas, as the 'house of cards' House of Saud would come collapsing down in the so-called 'Arab Spring'.

[Andrew]

I don't like the way they treat the women. Would be nice if they started giving them a bit more rights. Not going to happen overnight (it took long time for western women rights and black rights in America). They're a bit more isolated so will take longer time to happen. Doesn't help that I think it's part of religion as well (changing that would be difficult, see how long it took Catholic church with gays and abortions, and child molestation).

Saudi Arabia government collapsing would be very significant and make all the other Muslim countries collapse look like a picnic. Maybe the other countries collapsing and rebuilding with new culture ideas (more western) will eventually trickle into Saudi Arabia.

[DenisAtreides]

Damn, where was I when this was going on? I didn't even know that stuff like this was going on over there. A woman gets gang raped, and it's her fault?

You know, you go to U of T (Toronto) for years (go varsity blues), and you've got your acquaitences from Kuwait, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and the like. I'll admit it's been a couple of year since I've been there, but I never thought that it was like this over in the mid East. So this is a big deal, and shows you that things never change. If you're a billionaire shiekh, or a billionaire computer man, oilman, or whatever, you can write the law as you want. It's got to be only the royal family that likes it that tough for women over there. Can't imagine why the women put up with it.

[TheCurtOne]

Seems like all of the Saudi Arabian students that are taking classes abroad would want to try to "open" their country up once they get back home. Once someone gets the taste of the "democracy bug", it would seem that they would not want to go back into the box of a monarchical dictatorship.

Although I see from this news article that the gov't is basically funding and paying for everything for their students abroad. Sounds like an interesting system of keeping everyone in line.

I think from this article which is from the Organization of Islamic Conference observers and members in Kazakhstan this week, they feel that discrimination against Muslims is on the rise. Hey, the thing is, is that there are all sorts of Muslims. There are the ones who are next to you at work, then there are the ones who are doing horrible things like terrorism.