Rise of Populist Parties

[TMA_1]

It is no use to flail these people with attacks... that is just too easy a thing to do.

Why is there such a reaction taking place in the vaguely labeled "west"? People here see that changes are taking place at such a blinding pace that it frightens them... it frightens me.

This huge paradigm shift we see happening in the world is occurring without any real control. Those who are actually in control are setting themselves upon a path in which they will see the greatest benefit. Those who are living in the "developing" countries are indeed seeing great benefits, but are also still suffering from those who only see money as their highest motive. What's worse is that those in the west are tied up or are directly involved in the wage slavery and cultural destruction of untold millions throughout these developing countries. It is assumed that we in the west have at least partially learned from our past, and treat workers in a much kinder fashion, but this is not the case. Look at China, where the districts open to manufacture for companies in the developed world like Apple and Microsoft are pumping out millions of products in conditions which would NEVER be allowed in a place like America or Germany.

Those people in china are indeed making more than they ever have, but at what cost? It is destroying lives, entire families and communities over there. And here, we are seeing the complete destruction of a viable working class. It is an almost complete service economy, and the middle class is a phantasm which politicians always seem to discuss here.

Not only economically, but culturally we are seeing entire shifts in the way we think, the way we act and react with everybody else and it is horrifying to be stuck in this grinding mill controlled by thousands with no ears and eyes set to the spectrum of mammon.

There is no real great villain in this world that we can blame. It is interesting that Reinhold Niebuhr said something to the effect that individually, people tend to listen to their conscience much more than when those individuals lay within a group. Packs generally do greater evil than individuals.

If an individual is tied up on a road and he sees that a car is approaching at high speed, it is fairly easy for him to untie himself and step out of the road in time. Now if say it is a group of people who are tied together and are unable to get off the road until they untie themselves, it will obviously take much longer because of the need for cooperation and communication with one another.

I believe we are seeing the need to begin and act extremely fast in working together to solve some of the greatest problems we have ever faced as a human race. The increasing instability of the global economy, the hanging specter of global climate change and many other challenges are coming towards us faster and faster each day.

Though these groups are in my opinion very mistaken in how to handle many of our problems these days, it is obvious that they sense the dangers that are coming to us. They seem to me like canaries in a coal mine. I am in agreement that these groups, when manipulated by specific individuals and groups tend to go down the road of fascism. We have to be extremely careful with this and it is just another danger that we may potentially face. I do not think though that denigrating these groups helps though. In fact I think it just toughens their resolve and makes these groups more extreme. They are not yet "nazis" or anything of the sort, though they could very well develop into a similar form if the west is not careful.

I think we should see how the middle east is evolving, we should look at how the populist groups will evolve over the coming years and see if groups like the muslim brotherhood will get their complete hold on the governments that are newly popping up in the middle east. we should watch and see if we can apply anything we see over there with our situation, though it is in so many ways totally different than our own situation.

I hope that in the democratic countries, as things get worse, that this might get all us citizens more involved in a positive way in actually changing our countries for the better. Where we can shove off what is old and irrelevant and keep what is good. I am afraid though that there is not much time. I am also afraid that things could go sour in so many different ways.

Do you guys think that we have enough time to make the changes needed for a much smoother transitioning in our global economy? How about politics on a global scale? Do any of you guys think that things might be able to get smoothed out without the need for bloodshed and divisiveness through all these fast transitions?

What do you guys think of climate change in the midst of all these issues? Sorry if these questions are a bit off topic. If they are than nevermind. haha

Regards: Titus

[ErasOmnius]

There is no real great villain in this world that we can blame.

...except ourselves.

I would think that the Basque sitaution in northern Spain is more of a separatist situation, rathern than a Populist situation.

[Anathema]

Look at China, where the districts open to manufacture for companies in the developed world like Apple and Microsoft are pumping out millions of products in conditions which would NEVER be allowed in a place like America or Germany.

True, but that has very little to do with the rise of populist parties in the west. They generally don't care what happens outside their country or its immediate neighbourhood. Same with global warming: reducing carbon emmissions requires international cooperation and agreements, something they're not overly fond of. They're quick to dismiss recommendations from anything vaguely related to the UN and are generally climate-sceptic.

I believe we are seeing the need to begin and act extremely fast in working together to solve some of the greatest problems we have ever faced as a human race. The increasing instability of the global economy, the hanging specter of global climate change and many other challenges are coming towards us faster and faster each day.

Though these groups are in my opinion very mistaken in how to handle many of our problems these days, it is obvious that they sense the dangers that are coming to us. They seem to me like canaries in a coal mine. I am in agreement that these groups, when manipulated by specific individuals and groups tend to go down the road of fascism. We have to be extremely careful with this and it is just another danger that we may potentially face. I do not think though that denigrating these groups helps though. In fact I think it just toughens their resolve and makes these groups more extreme. They are not yet "nazis" or anything of the sort, though they could very well develop into a similar form if the west is not careful.

Personally I think the causes for the rise of this kind of parties is very different. Countries like the Netherlands or the UK are pretty darn wealthy overall, and there isn't much room for improvement for the majority of citizens under the current level of technology. The welfare state is largely complete, improvement is only possible in details.

The problem is that some people are never satifsfied, and they demand improvement. Populist parties capitalize on this dissatisfaction by searching for scapegoats (immigrants, muslims, other minorities) and advocating that their country stops with paying for organisations like the EU or paying for external costs like climate change, because the benefits of sending money aren't tangible for individual citizens, or even single countries.

The above is pretty general in scope, different countries have different reasons for an increase in populist sentiments.

[TheCurtOne]

I think that these populist parties rise up when people of some nations could care less about what happens in other parts of the nation. Tea Party could care less about Latin Amercian immigrants in Texas, AZ, and California. Seems like a great deal of the ruckus in Europe is from "the parents" of the Europe Union, not wanting to "help out" or "bail out" the children. Seems like the True Finns don't want to help Portugal and Greece. Hey, if you're going to be in a giant family type EU, then you got to help out "little brother" when he stubs his toe economically.

[ErasOmnius]

I'm not sure of the true nature of the European Union. It probabaly means alot of things to alot of people, and a alot of politicians.Not sure if they are just one giant nation, with regional representatives who were once nations. Or if they are a loose confederation of nation states that basically look out for their own countries goals, separate from the other member nations. I think it is time for the 'donor nations' of the EU to decide. This hemming and haw-ing on what is happening to the suffering people of Greece is becoming the talk of the world.

But if populist parties are rising in different parts of Europe over this eco-crisis in Greece, then it is a type of separattist movement, perhaps, out of the European Union?

[Dante]

I know this restricts your pool of available conversation topics to the contents of your navel, but do try not to speak about things you don't understand, eras. Remember, every time you say something stupid, god kills a puppy. I think I'll start counting them.

And just why does the EU need to cement itself into a particular shape? It may not work perfectly, but it works. Ooo, is the rest of the world gossiping about Greece? What a shame, whatever shall we do? Oh yeah, bugger all, because we don't answer to you trolls. Sweet.

Greece got itself into trouble. As far as I am aware, other EU nations are expected to help, but not obligated.

There have always been separatist movements in EU nations, especially in traditionally isolationist Britain.

(Hey, anyone else think eras is "liking" his own posts? Because I sure do)

Dead puppy count: 3.

[TheCurtOne]

Anyway, we see rioting in the streets of Greece, and we know that Greece is not just some backwater country in the 3rd world. But, correct me if I am wrong, when Europe became one giant nation, don't you have to take the "good with the bad"? Or is it just a temporary federation of nation states? Can one of the countries leave if they see fit? It seems that the political leaders of the European Union see the nations with in it, as one giant organism, if not economic organism. I mean, the money is flowing, to Greece, to Portugal. Isn't it a bit late for these political parties to be springing up and saying that this eco aide should stop?

[athanasios]

Europe is not one giant nation, neither a federation. It is the capitalists who have exploited and shaped a giant conglomeration to increase their wealth by stealing the assets of the middle and the lower class-aka 95% of the population of Europe turning us to 'Chinese workers' or slaves. No money is 'flowing'. It is loans, and they are 'NOT FREE OF CHARGE'. Now, I hope, you understand why the highly educated people of Europe have revolted against this form of dictatorship. Unless the world succeeds to get rid of the world dictators peacefully World War III will be inevitable.

[Anathema]

Anyway, we see rioting in the streets of Greece, and we know that Greece is not just some backwater country in the 3rd world. But, correct me if I am wrong, when Europe became one giant nation, don't you have to take the "good with the bad"? Or is it just a temporary federation of nation states? Can one of the countries leave if they see fit? It seems that the political leaders of the European Union see the nations with in it, as one giant organism, if not economic organism. I mean, the money is flowing, to Greece, to Portugal. Isn't it a bit late for these political parties to be springing up and saying that this eco aide should stop?

The EU is not "one giant nation". By and large, it's a confederation of states - with some elements being federal.

There's no legal obligation for the "wealthy" participants of the monetary union to assist countries like Greece. The truth is, by participating in the Euro, Greece became obligated to keep their deficit and national debt at low levels.* During the financial crisis it emerged that Greece had in fact made a dreadful mess of their finances for years, and falsified their administration to cover it up.

Greece's financial troubles could lead to their banks collapsing, and thus to collateral damage for other European banks. That's why the other euro-participating countries are helping Greece.

(*there are many other countries that don't abide by these standards, till now they've been sadly unenforcable. But nobody flaunted these regulations as badly as Greece)

[ErasOmnius]

Europe is not one giant nation, neither a federation. It is the capitalists who have exploited and shaped a giant conglomeration to increase their wealth by stealing the assets of the middle and the lower class-aka 95% of the population of Europe turning us to 'Chinese workers' or slaves. No money is 'flowing'. It is loans, and they are 'NOT FREE OF CHARGE'. Now, I hope, you understand why the highly educated people of Europe have revolted against this form of dictatorship. Unless the world succeeds to get rid of the world dictators peacefully World War III will be inevitable.

I am beginning to think that the 'young' nations of the European Union would be better off not a part of that economic confederation -- especially Greece. This money that is going to Greece is nothing more than money with many strings attached. Loans, with high interest. Greece has had her seas overfished, trying to provide food for the entire European Union, and what have they received in return. Not very much.

[athanasios]

They have stolen our money:

Loans that were not needed forced on us from the North to buy their price bloated garbage (See C4I scandal and how they threatened us to buy it in order to hold the Olympic Games of 2004).

Hi Tech. goods from the North whereas our agriculture and industrial evolution was suppressed (Greece not allowed to produce milk for its children! We have to import it from the North!).

And now they accuse us and demand our property.

"¡No pasarán!"

And bring back our money thieves.

If not, that's the end of EU. Let the fascists guide you while the South will reach the glory its history calls for.

[Anathema]

Right...

[TheCurtOne]

My whole point is, there probably needs to be greater integration in the European Union. The rights of trade union workers in Germany, Scandinavia, and Great Britain, which are high, need to become continent wide. This way, mass immigration from East to West across Europe will cease, and new EU countries can develop their middle class. Even in white collar fields like engineers, the gap is too great when one compares salaries across Europe.

Hey, this issue cost the former PM of Great Britain his job last year when he couldn't or wouldn't explain himself on the issue of cross EU immigration fully. So, if trade unions were strengthened in eastern Europe, and a continent wide minimum wage were put into effect, it seems like major problems might go away. According to this study, the disparity is too great.

[athanasios]

A quote from your link to laugh at:

Whereas France, Greece, Portugal, Spain and the Benelux countries have a long tradition of protecting pay at the bottom of the labour market in this way, Ireland and the UK introduced national minimum wage systems only in the late 1990s.

The '''socialist''' dictators of Greece ****** the minimum wage system...

Nice what you say and we agree but who cares...

What a fun yesteday on Kontra TV channel a couple of fascists will IQ just above zero were arguing against the immigrants and one of them got so pi**** of that he got up threw the microphone and left the panel shouting: "Go the hell you w*nk**s"!

[ErasOmnius]

God Curt, I hope you're not an advocate for mandatory wage adjustments. Certainly you're not saying that someone who is an engineer in GB, is not heads above more educated than someone from the Balkans or something.

[TheCurtOne]

God Curt, I hope you're not an advocate for mandatory wage adjustments. Certainly you're not saying that someone who is an engineer in GB, is not heads above more educated than someone from the Balkans or something.

So that's it? Good God man... That's your counter argument? "Good God man...hand me the brandy and another cigar." Not a very strong counter argument.

Of course the engineer or tool and die tradesman in the Nw of Europe or North America is going to have more educational opportunities than people elsewhere. But that doesn't mean that they should necessarily be paid more. If people who are continually more and better trained, earn substanially greater amounts of money than those who are not, then mass immigration will never stop. There have to be mandatory wage parameters across Europe, across North America (incl Mexico), or "things will never even up".

Where the money goes, or where the wages go, so will the building of schools, pre school programs, universities and colleges, and better jobs. But if we even things out, with a better playing field, then better things will happen in disadvantaged areas. In North America, minimum wage laws need to be mandatory in Mexico, just as they are in the US, so that the cost of producing auto parts there is the same as in America and Canada. Otherwise, corporate interests will always prevail, and "ship" jobs to other countries where it is cheaper to manufacture items. In China, where factories are run with a soldier always within sight, labor is real cheap. But would you want to work there?

[Anathema]

Greece has had her seas overfished, trying to provide food for the entire European Union, and what have they received in return. Not very much.

Uhm, what?

To my knowledge, the bulk of fish caught in the Mediterranean is exported to non-European countries. This is true at least for tuna, most of wich is shipped to Japan for sushi and whatnot (not kidding). Tuna will probably be extinct in the Mediterranean in a couple of years.

The EU does have fishing quota to prevent just that, but all the southern Mediterranean countries flaunt them.

[ErasOmnius]

TheCurtOne, I consider a statement summarizing what you are advocating -- the mandatory adjustment of all wages on a continent-wide scale -- to be very pertinent and simply put, to the point. This world, for better or for worse, is a laissez-faire world. Whether one believes in the Fall of Man from the Book, or the cruelty of Natural Selection in Evolution; those who are better trained receive the highest wages, or they should.

I find it staggering that you would be advocating something as radical and Big Government as trying to impose and enforce mandatory wage increases. Would that also include decreases? Would the engineer in New York, USA or The Hague, Netherlands; see their wage reduces to reflect the same engineer in Monterey, Mexico or Odessa, Ukraine. Both are examples of wages that would have to be reduced almost by half to see your government heavy-handed "plan" work out.

Mandatory wages never worked in the past. In the old Soviet Union, mandatory wages simply produced millions who worked slowly and drank vodka all day.