Black-focused school in Toronto, Canada --> segregation?

[Andrew]

And do these actually work, or are they just tokenistic?

I have no idea if they work. I doubt they'd admit if the programs did not work.

[Edric O]

It annoys me when the government declares that a minority can do something wich the majority (white, protestants, you get the idea) cannot. Can you imagine Toronto approving of a school who explicitly states it endeavours to teach mainly about white, European history? If most schools are de facto already like that (wich I don't buy) you should work on that instead of adding to it by making the problem racially symetric.

I agree completely. The ultimate goal should be racial equality - a "colour-blind" society where the melanin content of your skin has no impact whatsoever on your life. We should strive to de-emphasize race, to make it seem irrelevant and not worth bothering about. We should strive to integrate people of different races into the same community and the same culture.

Now, advocates of black-focused schools and other such programs will advance one of two arguments:

1. Black people have been oppressed - and in some cases enslaved - by white people in the past. The effects of this oppression are still felt today, especially in terms of education, because disadvantaged parents tend to provide their children with a poor education.

  I fully agree with this argument, and I think it makes a good case for some degree of positive discrimination. Black people have been negatively discriminated in the past, so it seems only fair that we should "even the score," as it were, by giving them a few privileges today. However, I think we should make every possible effort to avoid strengthening racial divisions while granting those privileges. For example, there should be no black-focused schools, but the government should grant more funding to schools in poor neighborhoods (where black people tend to be overrepresented).

2. There is also an argument that there is some kind of "black identity" or "black culture" that should be preserved or promoted. That's bullcrap. There is no "white identity" or "white culture," nor is there any black or Asian equivalent. There is nothing in common between children born and raised in 21st century Toronto and people living in ancient or medieval Nubia, Timbuktu or Zimbabwe.

[Edric O]

Define "work".

I think Nema is asking whether any of those things actually make a difference in the lives of black people, or whether they merely exist to make us feel better about our society.

[Sneakgab]

''I agree completely. The ultimate goal should be racial equality - a "colour-blind" society where the melanin content of your skin has no impact whatsoever on your life. We should strive to de-emphasize race, to make it seem irrelevant and not worth bothering about. We should strive to integrate people of different races into the same community and the same culture''

Of course, that's why these black-focused schools seem foolish to me.

''1. Black people have been oppressed - and in some cases enslaved - by white people in the past. The effects of this oppression are still felt today, especially in terms of education, because disadvantaged parents tend to provide their children with a poor education.

  I fully agree with this argument, and I think it makes a good case for some degree of positive discrimination. Black people have been negatively discriminated in the past, so it seems only fair that we should "even the score," as it were, by giving them a few privileges today. However, I think we should make every possible effort to avoid strengthening racial divisions while granting those privileges. For example, there should be no black-focused schools, but the government should grant more funding to schools in poor neighborhoods (where black people tend to be overrepresented).''

I can actually commend the SA govterment on this (a rare thing indeed). They basically have this as their ideological policy. Unfortunately, they go about actually following this policy in extremely stupid ways, and basically accomplish nothing while making things much worse. I get the feeling that some intelligent indivual back in 1994  ::) gave the ANC this wise pursuit, but now the pursuit is followed only by corrupt fools.

This is a fear I have held for a (govt based) socialistic or communist country. Maybe one day some communist party with wise and sensible ideals will somehow come to power, but how long will it be before the party is corrupted and exploitation continues as usual (though not ''like'' usual perhaps, if you know what I mean). It may take half a century for the motions that allow such a socialist victory to occur, only to have this govt (or country or whatever) become corrupted within a decade to return things to usual.

I suppose that having lived under an effective (ie: one that promotes the greatest good effectively) system for a few years, the populace would never want to go back though, and would never again stand for the previous measures of exploitation.

Sorry for the digression.

''2. There is also an argument that there is some kind of "black identity" or "black culture" that should be preserved or promoted. That's bullcrap. There is no "white identity" or "white culture," nor is there any black or Asian equivalent. There is nothing in common between children born and raised in 21st century Toronto and people living in ancient or medieval Nubia, Timbuktu or Zimbabwe.''

I definetely agree with that. Unfortunately, the masses pretty much go along with the whole racial culture thing, all the while believing they are making no racial distinction whilst speaking of coconuts (black people living in a typically and perhaps historically white fashion) and black wannabes (white people ''trying'' to be black).

The problem would go away if people forgot the distinction btw races.

Some might say, black people are disadvantaged/poor because of their earlier oppression, and should be compensated.

But it is far wiser to say that all DISADVANTAGED/POOR should be compensated. ''Black'' is not the issue here and it's mentioning is irrelevant. Previously opressed and/or currently poor should be the issue/s here, with the previously oppressed (Those who lived during the times of oppression or are indirectly affected by it) compensated and the poor given decent human rights/help, atleast when their poorness is through no fault of their own.

That black people may form the majority of these groups is irrelevant and not necessary to mention.

It is this distinction that I desire from my govt as well. Forget about blackness. Does being black mean that one requires additional assistance? Whether this assistance if forthcoming or not, an affirmative for the above would be most racist would it not?

Just give assistance to those requring assistance, bringing skin color into the matter is irrelevant nonsense.

One suspects thought that a corrupt govt can better obey its money providing masters by making it a racial matter, thereby allowing them to seem like they are trying to improve things by implementing absurd racial based policies and actions while being able to avoid doing thing that would REALLY help but that would anger their money providing masters.

[nemafakei]

"It may take half a century for the motions that allow such a socialist victory to occur, only to have this govt (or country or whatever) become corrupted within a decade to return things to usual."

Socialism will not come from the people capturing the government and try to use it for their own ends, as you point out, that won't work. Socialism will happen when we recreate our society from below.

[Egeides]

Socialism will not come from the people capturing the government and try to use it for their own ends, as you point out, that won't work. Socialism will happen when we recreate our society from below.

You see such schools as potential "egalitarian change" from below?

[nemafakei]

Actually, as I said before, I'm not in favour of segregated schools, based on race, gender, sexuality, class or creed: I'm arguing against them.

And I certainly see such schools as an imposition from above.

[Sneakgab]

''Socialism will happen when we recreate our society from below.''

By that do you mean that changing people's mindsets and natures is required?

Perhaps that would be the most sensible approach. I guess this would rely on media and information providing as well as getting people interested in said information. There exists much to learn and master that is not immediately useful to anyone but that we would be doomed without.

eg: ''theoretical'' (in inverted commas because they usually eventually have a practical purpose) maths. Look at Guasses matrices. Back then people had no use for it but our current lifestyles would probably be impossible without his ''theoretical'' work.

In this case, people see no immediate use to philosophy and learning about it's political relevances, yet if all were like this we would still be living in fuedal countrys (whatever) exploiting blacks and women and if all ARE/WILL be like this we will continue to live in exploitative countries with foolish issue dodgers like these black-focused schools.

Sufficient amounts of peoples must come to see an error in a way set upon them by some form of ruler (pres, king, whatever) before change is possible.

It seems that this is unlikely to happen regarding the black-focused schools....