Discovering new areas

[Emperor Harkonnen]

How do you guys think that people discovered new planets and solar systems? Didn't they need coordinates in order to make a jump? So perhaps they used more traditionall space travel. But how would they then get from one galaxy to another, there are vast distances betweent them which would probably take years to travel with light speed.

and how come so many planets were habitable? Millions of habitable worlds? Did they do something to planets which were uninhabitably to make them habitable?

[Andrew]

The millions of habitable worlds is not true. In the Dune timeline when there was the era of "millions of planets" or whatever (under one ruler), it was only in namesake. This happened a long time before the original Dune novel.

Found what I was looking for

http://www.usul.net/books/timeline.htm

11200 THE EMPIRE OF A THOUSAND WORLDS (an empire in name only, because Imperial power was so diffuse as to be nonexistent).

Unless you are saying you read somewhere that there were millions of planets?

From the time Earths solar system is colonized (which took 500 years), to the events of original Dune novel is around 24,000 years, which should be enough time to colonize lots of planets. I would presume the guild would randomly pick a place in space, look around for planets and then return to known space

[Emperor Harkonnen]

5022 THE EMPIRE OF TEN THOUSAND WORLDS united under Ladislaus the Great.

I think this is more correct. Sorry I must have misread about millions. Anyways that is from the encyclopedia and not from the orginials and therefore cannot be considered correct.

They colonized our solar system? Which planets were there to colonize? Mars  :P

And speaking of the timeline, how do we know that Guild was formed 14.000 years into the future. Only places I have read it is in the Encyclopedia and in Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson's books. I guess there would be a reference to it in the orginal books as well, anyone have it?

[Tezcatlipoca]

But how would they then get from one galaxy to another, there are vast distances betweent them which would probably take years to travel with light speed.

I'd have to dig up the reference, but I'm quite sure that even during the scattering, people went no further than the outer-core of our galaxy.

As for looking for new places, the guild, being well versed in space travel and all things space, would probably study likely locations remotely like we do, then plot their space fold to that location, and just like they do with traveling between known places, use their "vision" to guide them safely there. Once there they could easily see if it was habitable or worthwhile in anyway, and if so put it up for sale in the imperial market.

[Emperor Harkonnen]

I also thought that they were only in the milky way galaxy first, but I got the confirmation in Heretics I believe, that humanity were all over the universe. orelse they would probably not call it the Known Universe, rather some name of the galaxy  ;)

[MrFlibble]

Hey, maybe the Navigators used their prescient abilities to detect new planets? Or their powers were not enough to do this?

I think once a planetary system was reached, people used smaller non-foldspace faring vessels to scout and explore the planets until a habitable/resource-rich one would be found.

[Andrew]

Hmm, I vaguely remember a guild person using their powers to locate a person or planet in the later Dune books. It started with Siona in GEoD being the first to be immune to it (I'm probably confusing it with something else). I'm guessing the same could be used for exploring the galaxy to some extent?

[Emperor Harkonnen]

Yes you are right Andrew. I have just read Heretics and Chapterhouse, I think this is were you find the first reference to a navigator being able to locate a person. But it seems they could do it all along. Siona and all her decendants were imune. that is why HM didn't discover the sisterhood on the planet Chapterhouse.

I guess this means that chapterhouse was hidden from Guild. Which means they couldn't see planets. But then again it wouldn't make any sence considering whether to build a no-field around the planet?? (since navigators cannot see things within a no-field) Confusing  ???

My conclusion is anyway that they cannot see planets... it's not like they can find anything. for instance if someone lost his keys, the navigator wouldn't be able to find it  :P

[MrFlibble]

If Guild Steersmen couldn't see planets, they probably wouldn't be able to safely navigate Heighliners, right? Like, "Ladies and gentlemen, we're emerging from foldspace in a few minutes and... whoops, what's that?! I didn't see this planet coming, it just appeared out of nowhere!" :P

The question is, could they determine whether a planet was habitable, what kind of lifeforms were there etc., or just saw them like on a radar of sorts. Steersmen's prescient powers were quite limited limited after all.

[gunner154]

Prescience and omniscience are very different things. I believe navigators have the powers to exercise prescience in navigation (necessary since they don't travel across space the way ordinary beings do), but not omniscience to the extent that they know everything about something. Prescience would grant them clues significant enough to aid navigation, such as avoiding paths that lead to wrong areas (you aren't travelling northwards, you're travelling through folded space), and that would probably translate to being able to identify important personalities with critical genetic traits.

[MrFlibble]

I guess Muad'Dib's or Leto II's prescient abilities effectively equal omniscience. However, I don't think that a Guild Navigator's senses are described in detail anywhere in the books (I mean the original hexalogy). Edric mentioned something, but it was quite vague if I remember correctly.

[Emperor Harkonnen]

I'd have to dig up the reference, but I'm quite sure that even during the scattering, people went no further than the outer-core of our galaxy.

I found a reference from GEoD:

This planet of Arrakis from which I direct my multigalactic Empire is no longer

what it was in the days when it was known as Dune.

I know I am answering too late, but still I think this a question many want answered.

[Emperor Harkonnen]

If Guild Steersmen couldn't see planets, they probably wouldn't be able to safely navigate Heighliners, right? Like, "Ladies and gentlemen, we're emerging from foldspace in a few minutes and... whoops, what's that?! I didn't see this planet coming, it just appeared out of nowhere!" :P

Still I don't think they could see planets. They could see events though. They saw whether a heighleiner would blow up or not, if they emerged from foldspace at one specific location.

[Andrew]

I found a reference from GEoD:

This planet of Arrakis from which I direct my multigalactic Empire is no longer

what it was in the days when it was known as Dune.

I know I am answering too late, but still I think this a question many want answered.

That is a very interesting quote. Now whether it directly means he controlled multiple galaxies, or if it was just namesake.

I wonder if it would be difficult for navigators to go from one galaxy to another (especially if none had been there before). Simply because the distance between galaxies is very large.

Also when the scattering occurred after GEoD, I presume humans went to new galaxies. I'm guessing it is explained a bit more in Dune 7+8.

[Emperor Harkonnen]

I guess if they first knew the location, or had the coordinates, of a place in another galaxy, it would be just as easy as traveling other distances. But to go there in the first place I guess would be quite difficult. Do you know approximately what the distance is to our nearest galaxy?

SPOILER!!!!!

Acctually it is not explained in Dune 7+8. In those novels the enemy had surrounded humanity, something which would have been impossible with several galaxies. besides travelling at light speed, it would take them eternities to get to another galaxy.

So I guess BH and KJA missed that sentence in GEoD.

[Andrew]

Yes, in jihad books I would like to think it is all in same galaxy (since they still know where earth is, and is easy to travel from earth to other planets).

But what happens in later dune books with no-ships and the guild is unknown.

But apparently our galaxy, the milky way has at least 200 billion stars. So assuming that 0.5% has a habitable planet in each solar system with sun, that is still lots of planets in our own galaxy.

[Dunenewt]

I thought Steersmen didn't control the destination of the heighliner, that was preconfigured, but they controlled how it made it their, found a safe path.

[gunner154]

I'd always seen destination as pretty irrelevant in the mechanism because there would be no "path" if there were no destination. The winds never blow in your direction when you don't have a direction, after all.

[Emperor Harkonnen]

I thought Steersmen didn't control the destination of the heighliner, that was preconfigured, but they controlled how it made it their, found a safe path.

Reference?

In my understanding, the navigator sees the future with his prescience. How can there be a specific path, when he folds space?

Folding is moving space, instead of moving the object. The path wouldn't matter, the only thing which matters is where the heighliner appears. So if the navigator stops folding space in the middle of an object, they would be dead. If he doesn't, then it is ok.

[MrFlibble]

Hmm, I think that the navigator sees all the possible futures of the heighliner and chooses the "path" to the right one (safe one, that is), not a path as a trajectory in space. What takes the navigator to make the "right" future happen, I don't know. I guess he folds space in a manner that leads to the desired future. I don't think the books had details about that

[Dunenewt]

Its explained in the Battle of Corrin isn't it?

[Andrew]

Its explained in the Battle of Corrin isn't it?

Funny you should mention it since I finished reading it 2 weeks ago. It did, but I don't remember. :P

I'll look it up this weekend if I remember.

[Dunenewt]

I don't have it with me right now, but I'm sure it explains how the lost many ships to begin with as they had noone to control it, and pick a safe path.  I can't remember what happened to the ships...didn't they just never reappear?

[Andrew]

It is also mentioned in the house series prequels.

Yep, sometimes they just disappear, or they crash into a planet.

[Dunenewt]

If they just disappear, then that could be because they get lost in space-time, or maybe they reappear inside a planet or a star?