Modern Strategy

[Mr_Hangman]

Most of the strategy available here is obsolete nowadays, inspecific, and after moving from a beginner to moderate it isn't that helpful.  I've played the game for a long time, though not too much online.  I can destroy the computer with ease, and all my friends who themselves can easily beat the ai, but against good players online I always lose. 

There's a lot I want to discuss but it'll be easier to start with a specific scenario, then go from there.  Let's say:

Fisher's Plain

10k

no starting units, all off but superweapons

1 on 1

With whatever house, I start by deploying the con yard with "N", "D" and make a windtrap then a barracks, and use "E" to place them.  During the dead time I bookmark the base on F1 and the surrounding sand (still in shroud) on F2-4.  Later I put the enemies on F5-8.

I place the barracks and usually build a refinery next, but sometimes a factory.  Would that be best in these settings?  How would it change based on your house or the enemy's?  Regardless, I make 3-5 scouts, select them with "N" and send them to the various corners of the map.

I know unit strengths/weaknesses, I can balance economy and units fairly well, but I guess I don't know how to group them and place them in the right spots, or a proper balance between low and high tech stuff.

My main questions is which units should be built with which house?

Atreides:  I've heard snipers and kindjal early is a deathwish, and what I've seen seems to confirm that.  It's tempting to make minos quickly but that rarely seems successful.  Should you go all light inf and bikes? For how long?  How about geese?  Are sards necessary or is another sub house best, or a hanger?  When should minos be made, and how many compared to other vehicles? 

Atreides are the biggest mystery and seem quite difficult to use well. It seems to me that minos are crippled without sard elites, is this true?  And if superweapons are on, they seems screwed by chaos lightning.  Atr needs minos and minos need heavy support, which makes the whole group slow, and if super weapons are on I don't know how you would beat a decent ordos player.

Ordos and harkonen:  It seems critical to know which units to make in which balance.  I tend to see tons of light inf/chem, buzz/dust, and sards with occasional laser/assault, and that goes on for most of the game.  What units would you make against what enemy house?

1 vs 1 games online for me tend to play out like this:

1)No one attacks for a while except for air drones or worms, sometimes a dev drop or something

2)I feel like my minos are powerless to help and I hope mongeese, sard elites, and air drones are in the right places, or for worms that I see them soon enough to snipe them.

3)I generally keep up with production but the enemy gets too well defended to use any sly attacks like in #1

4)I get chaos lighning'd or nuked and the mino hoards suffer and often don't make a successful attack on the well defended enemy

5)Now I'm out produced and wait to die.

In summary:

-What are good 1 vs 1 Fisher's strategies?

-Superweapons blow.

[jeff2429]

1v1 on that big map.  I would start out with ref,bar,ref,fac or bar,ref,ref,fac.  That is unless you are playing against an Atr that is known to drone early and you also Atr.

Tired, will add more later.

[Mr_Hangman]

I don't think going ref first is ever a good idea.  You need scouts and to be able to kill scouts, and barracks build quickly enough that you don't lose much potential spice.  Making two refineries back to back doesn't sound like a good idea either.  If you go ref, bar, ref, fac and a harkonnen or ordos opponent sees that, you have no chance against a rush.

After I start my first refinery,  I try to always have one upgrading or being built at any given time (but never both) until I have 3 fully upgraded.  While the refs are upgrading is when I make factories, sub houses, hangers, and windtraps, and when the refineries are being built is when I upgrade other stuff.

Atr vs Atr I suppose you need drones ASAP.  Maybe making sard elites first would work though.  I think it would turn into a competition of who can make more minos and drones.

[jeff2429]

Fishers Plain is a big map.  So it allows you to go ref first and still have time to put up a bar and kill any scouts before they get into your base.  Going bar,ref,ref,fac is actually quite good.  Once again with it being a huge map you will have plenty of time to build up a defense before they cross the map.  You will have such a strong income that you can make subs or another fac without having to need another ref for a bit.  Just build bikes/saws/dust and light inf/chem along with reg sards.  If you are atr then make elite sards and drones. 

[Mr_Hangman]

The map is not <i>that</i> big.  If you went ref first there's no doubt that scouts would be in your base before you have a barracks made.  And while it would set up a strong income for later, your units would come too late.  The enemy could arrive with about 6 dust/buzz and 15 chem/light inf and it's game over, and if you want I'll prove it.  Any observant player would rush someone who used that BO.  My nick is goodevil1.

[jeff2429]

I haven't played in over a year but I guess all my past experience is bullshit and I know nothing.  My best guess here is that you must build extremely slow.

Fine if you don't believe me then go bar,ref,fac,ref if it makes you feel safer.

[Mr_Hangman]

Sorry if I was rude, and after doing some tests I suppose I exaggerated slightly, but my opinion hasn't changed.  Building as fast as possible, using E to place buildings and clicking the next immediately, these were my times on speed 7:

70 seconds going barracks first to put scouts in all the farthest corners.

In 60 seconds, going ref first, then barracks, I had 2 light infantry trained.  That and the next 10 seconds would be plenty to secure your base against scouts on a good rock, but you might be out of luck with any wide entrances or multiple entrances that are far apart.  It may be possible to stop scouts, but it isn't guaranteed and since barracks build so quickly I don't think you gain a whole lot by going ref first.

As to rushes:

Player A

It took 120 seconds going wind, ref, bar, ref, wind, fac to get all that placed, with 3 refinery upgrades done in the meantime, with 3 scouts and close to 20 infantry.

Player B

It took 120 seconds going bar, fac, ref, wind ref to place that, get 1 ref upgrade, 3 scouts, 12 chem troopers, 9 dust, and 10 AA troopers.  Granted B is now riding 0 and A had a nice economy set up, but attacking right then would be the end of player A.

So in conclusion,

Going ref then bar: Not a terrible idea but probably ill advised.

Making 2 refs before a fac: big mistake unless you know you won't be rushed.

[eid]

i havn't played emp in a while,and it took me a while to get aquainted to atreides

build orders micro and macro are only one very important part of the game..

dont count everything on a perfectly timed build order...  the reason i say this is because the first thing you build is always a guess,same for your enemy...

you dont always know if im gonna make a fac or a ref or a bar first.-thats a player habbit your gonna hafta learn and gamble on..

there are some bo's that cant easily be countered unless the defender techs up in some way..

this is where early kindjal-mino-sniper etc type tactics come into play. so dont rule that out either..

it has its uses.

the key i believe that helps atr's slow units out the most is Formation!.

setting up your army in a way that one group type of units protects the other without breaking the line too much... and also, escalation tactics,play a big role. eg getting a few ornis before they get deviators etc, forcing them to decide on aa or tech..

geese snipers sonics drones and minos are not as effective if you wanna use subhouses tho. your better off spamming sards and leeches and tier 1  and go for the spice full time :/

use atreides harrass tactics(drones+bikes/fremen) while you mass up elites fremen and minos bikes inf and expanding, if your not into rushing..

[thesnake]

  i played dune for 10 years before i got online just to find out that playing a human is

a totally diffrent thing from the single player game..

my Friend i know i am going to be called a nob for saying this but i searched for so long

for any logic in playing this game online but i didn't find any...

want to know some reasons why ? i will tell you :

1_ peapol will post here and tell you make this and don't make that but everyone will say diffrent

things .

i will tell you this: if you make tanks they will make drones if you make drones they will make AA if you make AA

they will make snipers if you make snipers they will make fremen if you make fremen they will

make sards if you make sards they will make guild..

well the possibility's is endless my Friend which leads us to reasons number 2

2_ the players on this community are not normal video game players. they are like my Friend

mj Says addicted to this game. and they have reached a level of speed that is not

usual for those kind of activities, so you never know what will hit you after 3 min of start.

believe me its enough to take a few lessons with one of them to become an elite player.

i was shocked to see a stupid kid that have no brain what so ever beatting other good players

  just after taking few lessons with one of those elite players and copying everything the

elite player dose.. offcorse maybe that is not your style

conclusion :

it is impossible for you to understands all the relations between the unites and the possibilities that i have explained to you before. that is in case if there was any relation between them at first place. and even if some players told

you they do know, well maybe that's because they playe emp for 7 years now which is something i don't think

that you will ever accomplish.

you may think i am trying to confuse you and that i will leave you alone on the sand without

a guide to what i have learned. but that is not the truth i want to tell you the only

thing i consider a fact in this game, and that can really make you win games which is this :

the strategy is there is no strategy. and the reason is the speed of those players

there is no time to make a strategy or even look at them you must start with a pre made plan

its a complete CHAOS out there. as messy as chaos can get. in 3vs3 games you have 100s of unites

racing around in an insane way, some flying some floating some invisible. you can never expect

what is going to happen.. or see who is making what.. and that is when it gets hilarious and

fun i remember spending more than 1 hour in games not looking at anything just making

and sending its a real war.

those players are so fast there is no time to look at what they do and choose haw to

react.. you must act and let them look at you attacking.

there is only enough time for you to make units and attack and hop u made the right

units at enough numbers.. no time for a real strategy

this game is all about being able to produce large masses of unites without thinking, and send them with control+shift. and just hop that you will get lucky and break something importent

at the enemy base. that is the best strategy you can do at this time make 3 ref and 3 fac and 3 sard and 3

inf bar as fast as you can. then mass the unites and attack attack attack until

ure enemy get tired or produce less than. you if u lose then he is making more unites than

you. this is the only thing you mind will understand in the 5 min you have before players

like harkdwag start invading your base with 100s of buzz saws...

singed by : a nob

[Voodoo Daddy]

I just looked this thread over, and I have some friendly suggestions for you. You sound like a "Well thought out" player.

1- Listen to Jeff. I started playing when alot of the "Elites" were still very active. In my book he is in the top 4 of all the players I've SEEN firsthand. What he told you is absolutly correct. Your disagreement with his advice is based on  misconceptions.

First, a good player is going to scout you no matter what you do. so why expend all the energy on defending against that?

Second, have you played many team games online? I ask this because I don't know you, not because I'm being sarcastic. There is a reason why people like Guns, Spaz, Jeff, Pearl, Etc. don't get rushed. It's because against a good player rushes don't work. It's also an "Old Strategy" So a better approach would be to ask Jeff what a couple of the best rush defenses are, because there are many. If your getting rushed, it's because your opponent is reasonably sure it will work.

2- The game isn't ENTIRELY about speed. Yes it's important, but adaptability is also. I'm not an "Elite" player but I know this, if your B.O. causes you to go broke and your production suffers as a result, you loose.

3- These guys spent YEARS refining their B.O.'s and yes, they change not only based on the enemy but also on the map size.

And one last thing, do all your practice on speed 8 ALWAYS. Same for online play.

[darkd3th]

  I remmber first seeing the bar ref ref fac back in the golden old days. by doompower was an awesome BO. Works like a champ.

  And jsut like jeff said the size of fishers is so rediculous while you're comeing all the way down from the top of the map with your little tiny army. I'm still pumpin out inf, so by the time you do get down with your chem I'll have so many damn inf it'll be rediculous. Meaning it will out match your army when it gets to my base, so take that into consideration also.

[Gunwounds v2.0]

goodevil1 ,

voodoodaddy is right.  you have alot of misconceptions... many of which are speed related and unit ability related.  I can sense from your words that you dont exactly understand the power and stats of certain units and their abilities to stop a rush.  And i can see that you certainly are unaware of the criticality of having 2 refs early to keep constant flow of cash to primary defense, while planning the 3rd and 4th refinery for advanced production.  You shouldnt even be making hangar related items until after your 3rd refinery has been placed.  And to keep from being out-produced in the late game you need a 4th refinery or you need to pump out a few harvs from your factory (which similates building a refinery).  I can definitely see that you are unaware of your inbalance of buildings/units to cash ratio.  Plain and simple you are building a tier 1 base off of 1 refinery, and its slowing you down big time.  You need to have a tier 3 base on 3-4 refineries, going at max production.

Instead of having 1 refinery feeding 1 barracks, 1 factory, 1 hangar, 1 sardukar barracks, and 1 fedaykin hut.   You should have 3-4 refineries feeding 3 barracks, 3 factories, 3 hangars, 3 sardukar barracks, 3 fedaykin huts, and 3 superweapons. And you should have a constant non-stop producing stream of infantry, ground vehicles, aircraft, sardukar, fremen, and superweapons....as well as constant advanced unit orders from your starport.  That is the definition of MAX PRODUCTION.  If you cannot achieve that you will never win a game against an elite player.  Now phase 2 is actually using all the crap you bought to go and kill the other person.  That you'll learn from experience and observation.

Ingame nick =  Guns  / Gunwounds

[Mr_Hangman]

I know the definition and necessity of max production, but I don't know the best way to go about getting there.  What I described is just my idea of how to begin, but I don't know how off target that may or may not be.  I always build toward 3 of everything, a starport, and 3-4 refineries but fail to get there against many players.  Making two refineries before a factory sounded risky to me but I suppose a rush is unlikely, since a strong rush at this point would be sink or swim for the rusher.

I'm getting the impression now that bikes/dust/buzz sards and light inf are necessary until all the spice fields and entrances are covered.  I'd say now that minos or other higher tech units are too slow and expensive for early defense on a large map, since something will inevitable be exposed and units won't get there in time.  I see experienced players online stay with low tech units longer than I would have expected.

The usual problem I think is that I'm less prepared for various early attacks (worms, air drones, air drops, etc) than my enemy because I made bad choices on what units to make early.  As a result my early attacks are less effective than theirs, then I'm a step behind at reaching max production and never make up for it.

I think I'll bump up a refinery sooner in the build order and use more bikes, inf, and sards.

I made this topic because I've learned mostly from very old board posts and emprworm's site, and I don't think they're enough.  His strategies helped me go from being a noob to being ok, but they're a bit dated now and most of them seem fairly radical and/or situational.  I want to get a feel for standard strategy as it's known now, without debunked strategies that maybe "used to be" good.

Thanks for helping everyone.

[Gunwounds v2.0]

you sound like you would learn very fast with a bit of mentoring .... what is your time zone?  I am EST

Guns

[Mr_Hangman]

CST.  I live in the suburbs north of Chicago.

[alchemi2]

Been playing on and off since the begining and mainly online, never became elite partly due to age and the fact that i never spent that much time playing back to back games.

Go online and learn from the guys is BEST the likes of Jeff, Spaz, Pearl, Appollyon, Newlords etc can teach you that anything is possible!!! I've seen these guy win 2vs 3 many a time.

The key is try the impossible and vary your tactics and don't be down hearted, what fails today works tommorrow.

The one piece of advice i can give is have FUN and remember without spice your dead but then again so are they, so protect yours kill theirs.