God's Moral Authority

[GUNWOUNDS]

First, i am more of a spiritual kind and not a religious person

Second, i do belive in "God" , but what one means by God ... varies alot, what i think about God is very different from what a religious christian means by God

Gods Moral Authority ...

In my opinion, the christians have misunderstood what "God" is and my biggest beef is that they belive there is this allpowerful being who created all this , who is morally PERFECT !

And , get this now, he made it so that humans (made in the image of HIM ) are this bad grooked bunch and need to redeem themselves so they could be with him otherwise they are punished in hell of eternal suffering ........ i mean thats just LOL , seriously the Alpha and the Omega , the Origin of everything, the MORAL PERFECTNESS .... acts like a bully who had a tough childhood and is having hes vengenace upon us ?

Think about it for a second and realize, just how redicolous it sounds ...

People .... Make Love - not War

harkdawg , i respect you bro but sometimes your theology posts are a bit whacked out. LOL.

#1 You didnt give your definition of God.  Saying that you are "spiritual" instead of "religion"  is doesnt tell us much because religion has alot to do with spirituality.  Perhaps you meant you are a Deist who simply believes in a an impersonal Deity?  Or simply someone who believes in god as some supreme metaphysical force?  Or do you mean spirits as in ghosts?  Or do you mean u are a theist who believes in a personal God but dont like any of the current religions?

#2 I really dont see a problem with God being all-powerful... i mean if He isnt.. then He's just a powerful alien... and then that begs the question of "who made that powerful alien?"  Therefore to break the illogic loop you must assume that the only logical explanation for the creator of the universe is that he had no begining....else you keep going back and back and back forever illogically, so you must assume that you can only go back so far until the only logical explanation is that something had no begining.  This means He wasnt created (Alpha  & Omega).... this makes Him omnipotent by default as He is the creator of everything lesser than Him...and there is nothing higher than Him which created Him.

#3  Now if He created the universe then for all purposes He is all powerful to us... as He can manipulate anything in our universe.  And if He created the universe and set the Moral Law for the universe then He is perfectly Moral, how hard is that to understand?

#4 You obviously dont understand what it means to be made in "HIS IMAGE" ... this simply means that we are sentient like him.  Rocks are not made in His image... because they arent sentient.  He is sentient to the degree of knowing right from wrong.  We are sentient and know right from wrong and can reason.  Therefore we are like Him.  YOu should seriously understand something before you go flipping off at the mouth making fun of it cuz it only makes oyu look silly mate.

#5  Yea we are in His image which means we know right from wrong but are able to commit wrong, so therefore we can commit crimes and do evil deeds.  Now if God doesnt want to destroy your soul, the only other logical thing He can do is quarantine you.  Hence Hell.  Its simply isolation from God..... however since God is the source of life and happiness, being isolated is torturous.  Go ask a prison inmate what isolation cell feels like.... they are terrified of it. 

6# Bully and vengeance?  A school child?  Boy you got your examples all screwed up.   Actually He is more like a Parent disciplining His children.  Or do you refer to your parents as bullies?  Real-life parents will try to reform bad children.. but in the end if the child refuses... they are kicked out of the house... (isolated from the parents).   Same thing with God.. He will try to keep you on the good path... but if you completely refuse... you will be isolated, from your own choice.

Seriously harkdawg, if you wanna come up with attacks against man's interpretations of God... there are better things to attack... the ones you chose are actually pretty solid and easy to defend. 

Later,

Gun

[Darth Kwisatz]

I think harkdawg nailed you to a cross there, Guns.

[GUNWOUNDS]

I think harkdawg nailed you to a cross there, Guns.

That has to be another one of your provocative cheapshots, or else you're kidding, because no serious atheist would embrace such poorly thought out arguments.  Its easy to take things out of context and make them look stupid and rediculous... but its only because you dont understand what you're talking about.

[Darth Kwisatz]

Have some vinegar on a sponge while you pray for a miracle to release you from the corner you've painted yourself into, LOL.

The last remark was a cheap shot. The preceding one wasn't!

[GUNWOUNDS]

Here look i can butcher atheism with nonsensical arguements too....

"OMG  L!ke how can people think that stuff came from no where i mean like yea the universe just popped outa nowhere and then all of a sudden life came outta nowhere and then everything is just random and life came out of some gooey soup and then monkeys ran around and turned into people and then we all of a sudden turned smart and then we're just rotting meatbags floating on a rock in space ... LMAO i mean sit and tihnk about that for a minute and tihnk how ridiculous that sounds ROFLMAO!"

Thats about on par with Harkdawgs' post... and yet its unfair to atheists because the post is just poorly thought out and is spinning atheistic arguements to make them look stupid.  It has no value really so i would never post that as a serious argument.

[GUNWOUNDS]

as for your vinegar and prayer comments... i dont understand... are you trying to be inflammatory? I dont get it.  Its weird cuz you're acting out of character... normally you are composed and well spoken... now you seem sorta childish ... are you drunk right now?

[Darth Kwisatz]

The indestructibility matter as a working hypothesis lends itself far more easily to an understanding of infinity and eternity than bed time stories about spirits do.

Re the cheap shots, you've accused me in the past of being rambling, random, inconsistent and incoherent. I'm merely performing the polite service of living up to expectations by darting about. I had half a shandy yesterday in good company to be sure, but that was many many hours ago. I don't try to be pleasant or unpleasant. I just throw words onto a screen to see where they will land. Think of them as a flippant scattergun that shoots kisses. Just mind the tongues!

[GUNWOUNDS]

yea you remind me of this aussie i know on EVE: Online, Yeux Gris, ....he is a bit spastic and weird.  I guess I 'll just stereotype aussies like that and call it a day. I mean throw in the croc hunter and crocodile dundie and i mean that pretty much explains everything  ;)

now i just need you to end your posts with  "cRiKeY ! , wat a beeeoouteee!"

[Acriku]

For a second, I almost saw Emprworm's reincarnation...

[Darth Kwisatz]

Irwin is the sort of imbecile we manufacture to relieve yanks of their easy-earned cash.

[Harkdawg]

Well im more of Buddist then if anything.

We all have certain interests and hobbies, one of mine is to read about "God" , the universe, how we became to be ... etc.

In the end, everyone will just accquire information and will choose what parts they find best for them to belive and base theyre views upon it.

My view on how Christians define the World and "God" ...is rather unhealty . In the modern World ... the way people come up with such redicolous theories to support theyre world view (example Creationism).

Its like people are putting together a Puzzle of many little pieces and some people force a wrong piece where it clearly shouldnt be, yet they say "It Fits" .

The strict following of the Bible ... The Bible is just a book, one of wich origin i highly doubt is what Christians belive it to be.

IMO "Bible" was originally a good story book with maybe some good philosophical ideas about our life, BUT through the ages its been interpretated by sooooo many various people that its originally message was long lost.

Same about Jesus Christ, i belive such man walked this Earth, but rather he was a great scholar, an enlightened person, whos existance has been misinterpretated over the ages to our Savior and all that comes with it.

But hey Guns ! :) I never ment to attack anyone with what ive said and i like you nonetheless of youre religious beliefs and views. Youre a good guy and i respect you :)

[GUNWOUNDS]

Irwin is the sort of imbecile we manufacture to relieve yanks of their easy-earned cash.

OMG Yeux Gris is that you ?

[Darth Kwisatz]

I am the walrus

[Edric O]

A point I want to make about the right of worship is that there is no inherent right if you are the creator. I have some standards on what or who I might worship...

What exactly are those standards, and what do you base them on? I'd just like to point out, by the way, that any being capable of creating the Universe must be vastly more intelligent than any human. The gods may be many things, but one thing they cannot be is stupid.

Free will isn't a determinant of god's moral authority. One doesn't need a god to have free will.

Really? Then just what is free will, exactly? Science as we know it cannot under any circumstances account for free will. It is not a matter of not having found the explanation yet. We cannot possibly explain free will without completely overturning the whole foundations of science - particularly physics.

You see, physics allows for two kinds of events: those that are pre-determined and those that are random. Anything that happens in the physical universe must be either pre-determined or random (and even random events can be predicted within certain probabilities). But free will, if it exists, cannot be the product of either deterministic or random physical processes. By definition, free will is not pre-determined. And we know that people do not act randomly.

There is no room in physics for events caused by a person's free will. Free will is by necessity a supernatural concept. If we have free will, that proves the existence of some kind of supernatural "thing" (maybe not a god, but certainly something supernatural). If there is no supernatural, then we cannot possibly have free will.

[Darth Kwisatz]

Free will is whether I decide to scratch my head or jump off a cliff. Free will as a by-product of biochemical process and electrical impulses emanating from the brain, powered and balanced by nutrients and fed by the senses and by memory, and doesn't compromise physics one bit.

Does a inebriated person have free will? Yes, but some senses may have been enhanced or diminished. Does a mad person have free will? Yes, but what they perceive and do depends on whether they've been medicated. Does an impulsive person have more or less free will than a contemplative person? Its a relative argument, but there aren't any relevant examples that disallow free will in the purely physical realm.

The logical extension of what you're saying is that if I dig a hole, "god made me do it" as I couldn't have done it without god being in the universe. God, the devil, drugs, alcohol, spouses - you name it - have been used as a scapegoat in criminal trial defences for centuries, but to little avail. Equally amusing are people who "find god" in order to reduce their prison sentences. Atheists have been just as successful, and the principle is reduced sentencing for good behaviour. Does hypnosis prove or disprove the existence of god under this argument, or LSD for that matter? Does the invention of random number calculating programs that drive poker machines imply that god intervenes to deliver gambling outcomes, or gave spiritual life to the machines?

Physics is about observable causes and effects, not determinism - except maybe to a philosopher. Our ability to predict outcomes depends on the probabilities we are capable of calculating. Pure mathematics is a fascinating subject, but you won't find an argument for myth-making within it.

[Edric O]

Darth Kwisatz, you seem to have completely missed my point.

Free will is whether I decide to scratch my head or jump off a cliff. Free will as a by-product of biochemical process and electrical impulses emanating from the brain, powered and balanced by nutrients and fed by the senses and by memory, and doesn't compromise physics one bit.

What you describe is not free will. If your decision whether to scratch your head or jump off a cliff is fully determined by the biochemical process and electrical impulses emanating from your brain, then you have no free will. You have no choice. Given a certain biochemical state of your brain, you will do a certain thing. You are nothing but a very complicated machine, and, as such, you do not make choices; you merely act according to your programming.

The logical extension of what you're saying is that if I dig a hole, "god made me do it" as I couldn't have done it without god being in the universe. God, the devil, drugs, alcohol, spouses - you name it - have been used as a scapegoat in criminal trial defences for centuries, but to little avail.

No, I am saying the exact opposite. First of all, I'm not talking about God, I'm talking about the soul. I am saying that without a soul (or some similar supernatural thing), biology and physics make you do everything that you do. I am saying that in the absence of the supernatural, you are a pre-programmed machine.

After all, every event in the physical universe must have a cause. If none of your actions have supernatural causes (such as being caused by something called your soul), then they must have been caused by physical and biological factors. Something makes you do what you do. If it's not your soul, then it is your biology. And your biology is determined by factors outside your control. So, if your biology determines your behaviour, then your behaviour is determined by factors outside your control.

By the way, I hope you are not trying to imply that human actions have no cause. That would be unscientific in the extreme. Why, if I didn't know better, I might call it superstitious nonsense.

[Darth Kwisatz]

So a creature of god is an obedient anarchist?

In a very real sense we are biological machines. A systemic arrangement of atoms. We are fuelled by food and drink, we are serviced by doctors, garaged in houses or flats and scrapped in cemeteries.

What you are talking about is relativism in decision making. Free will is simply saying "yes" or "no". Will I bother responding to this post or not? A wise person will say either according to need. A fool could either be more or less predictable. An elightened person will have a more wholistic and perhaps selfless reason.

If anything, you are suggesting that faith and virtue are functions of faithful automatons who chose that path once, and that virtue is exclusive to faith in god. The faithful almost always seem to exhibit less free will than the truly free, and with few exceptions are less economical in their actions than the wise.

[GUNWOUNDS]

So a creature of god is an obedient anarchist?

In a very real sense we are biological machines. A systemic arrangement of atoms. We are fuelled by food and drink, we are serviced by doctors, garaged in houses or flats and scrapped in cemeteries.

What you are talking about is relativism in decision making. Free will is simply saying "yes" or "no". Will I bother responding to this post or not? A wise person will say either according to need. A fool could either be more or less predictable. An elightened person will have a more wholistic and perhaps selfless reason.

If anything, you are suggesting that faith and virtue are functions of faithful automatons who chose that path once, and that virtue is exclusive to faith in god. The faithful almost always seem to exhibit less free will than the truly free, and with few exceptions are less economical in their actions than the wise.

Actually the "faithful" exhibit more free will than the "truly free".  The faithful are not bound by peer pressure, worldy addictions/desires/fears, or stereotypic behaviours.  The "truly free" are the ones you see in the bars every night drinking like robots to impress their belching buddies for fear of the peer pressure stigma of not being a "real man"  or not being "cool"  or not having a "life".  Thats just one example.  The faithful are able to break free from the mundane everyday mold of mankind.  Hence the reason why so many faithfuls leave such a lasting impression on people than anyone else, they arent your everyday average joe chained to the world.

Gun

[Darth Kwisatz]

Welcome back.

The faithful are bound by peer pressure, perceived obligations/desires/fears, or stereotypic behaviours.  The "truly free" are the ones you see in the bars every night drinking to impress their belching buddies, having a "life".  Thats just one example.  The faithful are able to hide in the mundane everyday mold of mankind.  Hence the reason why so few faithfuls leave such a lasting impression on people than anyone else, they are your everyday average joe chained to an imaginary promise.

[GUNWOUNDS]

I never left............

Also, Darth i find it amusing how you chalk up Free Will to a "byproduct" of us being biological automatons.  I'm sorry but thats just sidestepping the issue and copping out. There's no way I'm letting you call free will a "byproduct" and get away with it.

Main Entry: by-prod

[Darth Kwisatz]

Call it a side effect then. Same difference. No, hang on, I'll stick by your dictionary definition. "In addition to the principal product" is about right. You've just found me a definition of stupidity.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Welcome back.

The faithful are bound by peer pressure, perceived obligations/desires/fears, or stereotypic behaviours.  The "truly free" are the ones you see in the bars every night drinking to impress their belching buddies, having a "life".  Thats just one example.  The faithful are able to hide in the mundane everyday mold of mankind.  Hence the reason why so few faithfuls leave such a lasting impression on people than anyone else, they are your everyday average joe chained to an imaginary promise.

That made absolutely no sense.   I think more people will remember the Pope John Paul or Billy Graham than they will some college flunky in a bar drinking to impress his buddies and having a "life".  Only to grow old, fat, and bald, and having nothing to show for his life except a hollow shell, a diseased liver, and a grave with a tombstone noone cares about.  The unfaithful are chained to a counterfeit life.  Pascal is right, to not believe in God and die and discover there was one is far worse than any cheap thrills you could have experienced on this earth.  Its rather like having your last meal of fried chicken and mountain dew right before you get executed.  Its pretty worthless.

[Darth Kwisatz]

John Paul is just another pope, Billy Graham just another evangelist. They'll remember John Paul I and Jim and Tammy Bakker before any of the others.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Call it a side effect then. Same difference. No, hang on, I'll stick by your dictionary definition. "In addition to the principal product" is about right. You've just found me a definition of stupidity.

Calling it a side effect or a byproduct still puts the brain (instead of free will) as primary instead of secondary.  Unless your Free Will is the primary force you are determined, programmed, or whatever else you want to call it.  I know you think of yourself as a biological machine... but do you honestly think your decisions are programmed and predetermined?  

[GUNWOUNDS]

You've just found me a definition of stupidity.

In your never ending quest for insults you forgot

A.) You didnt immediately "catch" it at first.

B.) What you "caught" doesnt prove your point.... the entire definition is "something produced in a biological process...in addition to the principal product".  Basically stating once again that your biological processes control your free will which makes you predetermined/programmed/etc.

C.) see A

Gun