Bush suspends habeas corpus (retroactively)

[Edric O]

It turns out my statement about the death of traditional conservatism may have been a little premature. Bush certainly seems intent on overturning all legal progress made since the Enlightenment.

http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2006/10/bush-signs-military-commissions-act.php

Under the Military Commissions Act, the president is authorized to establish military commissions to try unlawful enemy combatants. The commissions are authorized to sentence defendants to death, and defendants are prevented from invoking the Geneva Conventions as a source of rights during commission proceedings. The law contains a highly-controversial provision stripping detainees of the right to file habeas corpus petitions in federal court and also allows hearsay evidence to be admitted during proceedings, so long as the presiding officer determines it to be reliable. The law addresses permissible interrogation methods, making US interrogators subject to only a limited range of "grave breaches" purporting to reflect the requirements of Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions, and clarifies what actions would subject interrogators to liability under the existing federal War Crimes Act.

A legal challenge to the law has already been filed by a group of Afghan detainees who argue that Congress, by passing the bill, endangered the rights of detainees. The habeas stripping provisions of the new law apply retroactively, and in order for the detainees to be successful, a judge will have to strike down the portion of the new law that precludes the challenges.

[Acriku]

He's done it here in the U.S. (although some Americans fail to care about it), so it's no wonder he'll do it anywhere he can. Apparently, they aren't out there fighting for freedom, they are fighting against it.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Freedom was good because it use to be thought that letting 1000 criminals go free was better than convicting one innocent man.

I mean seriously with all the loopholes in our system we can barely convict a criminal, due to all the hoops law enforcement has to jump through.

I guess this administration has had enough of that.  I guess they would rather convict 1000 criminals and convict the 1 innocent man.  They just cant tolerate letting criminals go free anymore.

Seriously, habeas corpus doesnt affect anyone who will never go to jail or be arrested.  No one in my family has ever been arrested or gone to jail.... and neither have I.  So if i live on the right side of the law, for my entire life.  Why should I care that freedoms which allow criminals to evade justice are being taken away?

How many people have lived their entire lives without ever needing habeas corpus or even knowing what is it?  For us folk that live quiet peaceful lives we dont need stuff like Miranda Rights, Habeas Corpus, etc ..... that really only benefits the every-day uneducated criminal thug running around.

Guns

[nemafakei]

"Seriously, habeas corpus doesnt affect anyone who will never go to jail or be arrested."

Um, so? The vast majority of people who are arrested are innocent of any crime. Police can essentially arrest you for no reason at all. And it's not as if any modern country hasn't had a long history of arresting political opponents.

[GUNWOUNDS]

"Seriously, habeas corpus doesnt affect anyone who will never go to jail or be arrested."

Um, so? The vast majority of people who are arrested are innocent of any crime. Police can essentially arrest you for no reason at all. And it's not as if any modern country hasn't had a long history of arresting political opponents.

what you speak of is malicious abuse of the law by law enforcement..... which habeas corpus wont protect against either.... because if some police officers decide to come to Nema Fakei's house one night and "off you" ... your screwed no matter what.

My point still stands.

Guns

[nemafakei]

It will still protect against some institutionalised abuses of the law. There are degrees of corruption, and this just makes the slide down from well-meaning jobsworths to "offing" political undesirables that little bit easier.

[exatreide]

Freedom was good because it use to be thought that letting 1000 criminals go free was better than convicting one innocent man.

I mean seriously with all the loopholes in our system we can barely convict a criminal, due to all the hoops law enforcement has to jump through.

I guess this administration has had enough of that.  I guess they would rather convict 1000 criminals and convict the 1 innocent man.  They just cant tolerate letting criminals go free anymore.

Seriously, habeas corpus doesnt affect anyone who will never go to jail or be arrested.  No one in my family has ever been arrested or gone to jail.... and neither have I.  So if i live on the right side of the law, for my entire life.  Why should I care that freedoms which allow criminals to evade justice are being taken away?

How many people have lived their entire lives without ever needing habeas corpus or even knowing what is it?  For us folk that live quiet peaceful lives we dont need stuff like Miranda Rights, Habeas Corpus, etc ..... that really only benefits the every-day uneducated criminal thug running around.

Guns

Wait till your the 1 innocent person convicted gun, then i bet you would be singing a different tune. Or would you still defend this while the real criminals are out running around and your sitting a cell with out any chance of ever getting out.

[GUNWOUNDS]

sure if i ever get arrested then i may have to worry... but i'm not some low-class piece of sh!t that would get arrested in the first place.  I'm not going to rob anyone, i wont rape anyone, i wont peddle drugs, i wont be embezzling anything, and i wont be in some dumb protest where a cop would arrest me.  Simply put, there have been many people who have gone their whole lives without being arrested, and i disagree with Nema... i think most people are guilty who are arrrested because most of them are REPEAT offenders.  I have been on many a jury duty and i can say that most of  tthe scum that is brought in has a rap sheet a mile long.

But sure, I'll agree if i were some low class thug, or some stupid drug peddling kiddy, or some scummy embezzling CEO, then i might be worried about jail time... but i am a regular average citizen who works and pays taxes like a good little citizen.

Also most cops are regular people... i doubt its the agenda of most cops to go and falsely arrest people they dont know to ruin their lives.  The people who really have to worry are blatant criminals (who should be in jail anyways)  and "enemy combatants" captured overseas.

I dont fit any of those profiles,  I am not a blatant criminal, and i am not a captured enemy combatant from overseas.  So i can safely say that i am not concerned with rights i will never use in my life.  Just like i am not concerned with many states "3 strikes and your out" laws.... because frankly i dont plan on being arrested 3 times for commiting the same crime.

Guns

[nemafakei]

"but i'm not some low-class piece of sh!t that would get arrested in the first place."

Well good for you. Unfortunately, not everyone gets to be a respectably-turned-out middle-class professional. And not everyone who isn't is a criminal.

"I'm not going to rob anyone, i wont rape anyone, i wont peddle drugs, i wont be embezzling anything, and i wont be in some dumb protest where a cop would arrest me."

Again, you do not need to do any of these things in order to be arrested. Maybe you've been sold stolen goods, maybe you match the desciption of a rapist, maybe someone who embezzled money from your workplace did so in you name, maybe you're walking down the wrong street while a protest is going on - maybe you've broken a law without even realising it.

"i doubt its the agenda of most cops to go and falsely arrest people they dont know to ruin their lives"

Precisely my point in the last post!

[Edric O]

How many people have lived their entire lives without ever needing habeas corpus or even knowing what is it?  For us folk that live quiet peaceful lives we dont need stuff like Miranda Rights, Habeas Corpus, etc ..... that really only benefits the every-day uneducated criminal thug running around.

You don't understand. Arbitrary arrests always create more crime. This happens for two reasons:

1. First, if you arrest innocent people for crimes they didn't commit, that means the real criminals are running free and laughing their asses off. They got away with it once, so they will probably do it again.

2. Second, arbitrary rule creates disrespect for the law. If you know you have a good chance of being arrested even when you did nothing wrong, what's the incentive to obey the law? If you live in a bad neighborhood and look suspicious, the police are going to be looking for you anyway, so  you might as well go ahead and commit crimes.

The result is that when you start arresting innocent people, crime goes up. And that's without the government actively trying to abuse its powers. If you have a really corrupt government (which, let's face it, you do), then you will not only get more crime but you'll also have government officials abusing their power to arrest people that annoy them.

Also most cops are regular people...

And people make mistakes. In the police business, mistakes cost lives. Not only the lives of innocent people who might get thrown in jail, but also the lives of future victims who fall prey to the real criminals who were never caught. That is what rights are for: To minimize mistakes.

[VigilVirus]

Don't forget, you might get arrested for something that you say or perhaps something that you didn't say. After all, as long as that reliable witness doesn't like you, you're pretty much screwed.