RA2YR Dune Mod: Take Two

[nemafakei]

Yes, this style's nicer. The trike and quad look very big, though - I'm a bit worried that by the time you get to making the siege tank or the devastator, it won't work (oversized voxels used to mess up TS, dunno about RA2, but I'd imagine they give problems). As to bubble vs armour, they both look very good; the armour looks a little more gritty and low-tech, which is nice, but the bubble looks more like DII. I think if you could make the bubble a little smoother, then it would probably win the day.

[Major_Gilbear]

Well, the tanks will look bigger and the Seige Tank and Devastator will be much more solid anyway. Anything over 45L x 45W tends to overlap on at least some facings anyway, and you'd be surprised how chunkier voxels can look bigger even though they share the same dimensions...

I like slightly bigger voxels TBH, and two things always struck me about light vehicles in Dune2:

First, the Quads and Trikes are big and seem to have crews of 2-3.

Secondly, even if they are big and the glass is armoured, they can still be light units quite easily. I saw/see them as more akin to wheeled light tanks than actual armoured cars. Like the old Soviet BRDM-2 in that it doesn't much resemble a car as a light combat unit (but unlike the HMMWV which does look more like a traditional armoured car for example).

Dunno if all that makes sense to ppl! :P

Anyway, I can make the glass canopies smoother if I use RA2 normals instead of TS normals. But that means painting 244 normals facings instead of 36, so I had counted on leaving that to the end when all the units were finalised in their design and size ;)

[Caid Ivik]

So, I take it you like the schemed units more then?

I redid the Trike (again!), and now I'm not sure which style I like more. I think the glass bubble canopy looks better, even though the larger pictures showed an armoured cockpit; the rest of the Trike is as the large pictures in both cases though. Anyway, I've attached both below, and I'd appreciate others' views on which they prefer.

Also, I'm surprised that after over 200 views of this topic, nobody has much to say on the game issues I identified originally... :-

Trikes on the right look better ;)

[MrFlibble]

The trikes are indeed very good. The one on the right looks more GDI than Atreides though ;) But I thought they have twin cannons, not one:

Trike:

Type: Light Recon/Strike Vehicle        Armor: Light

Armament: Dual 20mm cannons              Crew: 2

Speed: 72 km/h (wheel)

[nemafakei]

The DII ingame trike clearly had two guns, but the picture looks suspiciously like it's one gun. I'd say artistic license more than covers it.

[Major_Gilbear]

The trikes are indeed very good. The one on the right looks more GDI than Atreides though ;)

Thanks  :). It wasn't meant to be GDI-ish, but now you mention it, it does a bit doesn't it? Hmm.

So far I have:

Glass Canopy = Nema Fakei, Mr Flibble(?)

Armoured Canopy = Caid Ivik

This is still undecided as far as I'm concerned, and I will refrain making a choice until others have said something, or had more to to at any rate.

But I thought they have twin cannons, not one:

Hehe, you kinda tipped my hand with this one, as I had intended to make the Ordos Raider Twin-gunned! This is to further differentiate it from the ordinary Trike. Otherwise players might assume it was the same vehicle but with a different camo pattern...

Still, the Ordos Trike could have heavier/lighter/different guns modelled on it if everyone else thinks that the regular Trike should have two guns?

[Caid Ivik]

well, you can compile always two MIX files, one with colored and other with uncolored units  ;D

[Major_Gilbear]

Hehe, yeah I can, but that still doesn't solve this:

Yeah, that's Remap. Thing is, if you are playing Atreides, and you happen to select purple as your team colour, how will other players know that you're Atreides and not Imperial? They'd have to click on or scroll over your units to find out, and it isn't as visually obvious as it could be. The alternative is to give each House a fixed scheme with limited remappable areas, and then the units are recognisable irrespective of what team colour is chosen (like EBFD). I covered the two options in point {5}.

Full remap is more true to Dune2. Full remap is also confusing as hell when playing skirmish/MP! So which to choose?

Otherwise, I wouldn't have even suggested it as a choice. Of course, I could have had green units with some areas of remap for Ordos, red units with some areas remap for Harkonnen, etc. But the colours available for this in the voxel palette are really sucky... :(

[Caid Ivik]

give them flags or something similar

[Major_Gilbear]

Flags eh? Hmm, not a bad idea that... I may just release two MIX files afterall!  ;)

[MrFlibble]

I second House-specific colour schemes. Full remap is indeed true to the Dune 2 ingame graphics, but colour schemes will make units look like seen on the Mentat screen renders.

I'm still not sure though... ???

[vidiware]

Amazing!

I love your mod already!

Could you make the Trike and Raider Trike different (add urban cameo on the raider one, like on the picture)?

Keep up the good work!

[Major_Gilbear]

Amazing!

I love your mod already!

Thanks  :)

Could you make the Trike and Raider Trike different (add urban cameo on the raider one, like on the picture)?

Each House will have a different Scheme, so yes, Ordos Raiders will be in the colours shown in the larger images. That specific camo pattern always reminded me of WW2 British Caunter, used in the first half of the North African campaign...

Keep up the good work!

Will do, especially if ppl ask questions/make suggestions here; I do want to use features available in RA2, but I also want ppl to enjoy it like the original Dune2!! ;)

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BTW, something else that your comments on the Tikes have reminded me of is the issue of non-House units.

That is to say, in Dune2, Ordos for example could only build Raiders. With the building of a Starport though, normal Trikes could then be bought - usually cheaper than Raiders too, even if they weren't quite the same.

What I wanted advice on is whether the Starports should still allow access to such units (ie, Ordos would have access to both Raiders and Trikes for example), or should they still only be allowed what would normally be buildable (ie, Ordos can get cheaper Raiders via Starport, but no normal Trikes)?

Secondly, if a House captures a foreign House's Warfactory (or Conyard etc), should they be allowed to build their units? And if so, should those units be in the original House's colours or the new House's? For example, Ordos capture a Harkonnen Warfactory. Should they be allowed to build Missile Tanks and Devastators? And if so, should those tanks be in an Ordos colour scheme, or in Harkonnen colours?

Your thoughts would definately be appreciated on this!

[Major_Gilbear]

Quick update:

Whilst working on the next unit, I had yet another quick idea for the Trike. I've added a new model of the Trike (Trike #3) to the comparisons, and you can see it below. Better than #1 or #2, or not?

[MrFlibble]

Hm, for a reason, I like single-barreled trike better... BTW, reminded me that the "GDI" trike is kind of closer to the mentat screen pic... something to think about ;)

The twin barrels should probably be made a bit more thick/solid, the current ones look like they're more suited for poisoned needles rather than bullets/shells. Also, I have an impression that these new barrels are somewhat... alienated from the rest of the model... ???

What I wanted advice on is whether the Starports should still allow access to such units (ie, Ordos would have access to both Raiders and Trikes for example), or should they still only be allowed what would normally be buildable (ie, Ordos can get cheaper Raiders via Starport, but no normal Trikes)?

IMHO Starports should work exactly like in Dune 2, both to preserve the feel and to keep those strategic opportunities it provided. Trikes and Missile tanks available via Starport, yes. The Ordos player would always benefit from this ::)

Secondly, if a House captures a foreign House's Warfactory (or Conyard etc), should they be allowed to build their units? And if so, should those units be in the original House's colours or the new House's? For example, Ordos capture a Harkonnen Warfactory. Should they be allowed to build Missile Tanks and Devastators? And if so, should those tanks be in an Ordos colour scheme, or in Harkonnen colours?

Again, this should work as in Dune 2, so new construction options must be made available. And yes, it'd be cool if House-specific units are produced in another Houses' colour scheme. However, I believe Deviators should work for all Houses, not convert units to Ordos without regard of who's controlling a Deviator (like in Dune 2). This also implies that Raiders must be optically different from Trikes in other ways than camouflage colour, to distinguish, say, Atreides-built Trikes from Atreides-built Raiders (or Ordos Raiders from Trikes bought via the Starport).

EDIT: Hey, a quick idea here. I was thinking that difference between Trike and Raider should stress that Raider is more lightly armored and faster. What if you use "GDI" version for the Trike, and glass cockpit version for the Raider (glass=lighter armor & a streamlined hull to attain higher speeds)?

[Major_Gilbear]

Well, the third Trike's guns are both meant to suit the large pictures and look more like MGs than light cannon too. Also, I can make barrels either 1x1 (like Trike 3) or 2x2 (like Trikes 1 and 2) in cross section. I do know what you mean though, and I may have (yet) another go at them.

The Raider will probably have a different gun configuration anyway, though I suppose I could use the armoured cockpit version to represent it...

I take your points regarding Starports, but I wondered if by letting Houses acquire units that they otherwise wouldn't be allowed, it would defeat the point of having the limitations on the Houses to begin with?

Afterall, in Dune2 it made sense firstly because in missions Starports were only available later on and secondly because there was a limit on how much you could buy from the Starport at any one time.

Since in this mod Starports will not have the old "random purchasing price" function (not supported by RA2), they will only act as a prerequisite. As Starports are available early on in the tech-tree, it also makes these units easy to get hold of early on too.

Ordos Deviators will not deviate as they did in Dune2, again because RA2 won't support it. Either I can have them permanently control enemy units or have them cause enemies to go berserk and fire on their own units randomly (which you wouldn't be able to control and would last only a set time). This means that Deviators will always Deviate enemies in a favourable way and not give an advantage to a third House by accident!

Personally I favour having it make enemies go berserk. This is like the Chaos Lightning in EBFD and also to me seems more realistic than mind-controlled units...

[nemafakei]

Is it possible to have deviators fire missiles which act as terror-drones and mind-controllers at once? That could even things out a bit.

[Major_Gilbear]

Hmm, mind-controlling Terror Drones would be possible I think, yes. But to have Terror Drones fired from another unit, no.

Besides, apart from the big rockets (like the V3, Dread Missiles, etc), I understand that rockets are considered by the engine as being neutral. That means that anything spawned by them would not be player-controllable.

Similar problems arise with the infection/Brute conversion logic - only the YR Mutator has that conversion logic keyed to convert to the owning side; emulating that logic on anything else though results in the creation of ownerless units.

And the big rockets result in the same as above, it is just that the game knows they are a special case for the purposes of having AA firing at them and for having correct remap on them.

[nemafakei]

Well, I meant the big rockets (we can have smaller voxels, of course!). Could they be set to terrorise/deviate? Hopefully, we won't be spawning anything, so post-destruction control won't be necessary.

[Major_Gilbear]

If the rocket dies, the mond-control is broken. Plus, the I doubt the victim would be controllable if mind-controlled by a rocket (assuming a rocket can be coded like that).

If the rocket spawns a "Terror Drone" as it dies so that control of the enemy is possible, there is also the problem of destroying a unit with a mind-controlling Terror Drone; it emerges when the unit is destroyed. I think as far as the Deviator goes, that'd be a bit weird...

[Major_Gilbear]

Well, I have been busy working on things that are either not working how I want, or that aren't really something I can show off in a screenie (yet).

Still, I thought I'd show you another unit in the meantime; the Rocket Tank.

I'm not really very happy with this unit, and I'm not quite sure why. I have remade it four times already, but it still doesn't look quite right to me. Anyway, see what you guys think...

[nemafakei]

It's perhaps a little too bright and plain for what you want. There are lots of flat sufaces which should be painted with camouflage, as well as more contrast (i.e. dark bits) wound the edges and features.

[MCV]

Back to the 'Thopters;

In Red Alert, Tiberum Sun, and Red Alert 2, (I never checked TD) the helicopters ("Airportbound=no" harriers) could be made in unlimited number while still being required to reload at the helipad. The helicopters not reloading would wait next to the helipad. I never checked in RA2, but in RA and TibSun, the helicoters would also fly in from off-screen when there was no unoccupied helipad left.

Personally I think that would be the best solution.

[vidiware]

I think the problem with you R-Launcher is that it is too plain. Try to color the turrent in a greyish color like the original dune 2. The model itself looks quite good.

btw. what tools are you using to make voxels?

About Ornies, I think that the Airpad solution is a good one. Theres nothing wrong with adding the "paratrooper" and/or "parabomb" features from Red Alert.

[Major_Gilbear]

btw. what tools are you using to make voxels?

I am pretty old-school with Voxel editing actually. I use Will's original Voxel Editor and paint TS normals by hand (though I can paint RA2 normals too). I find that the newer proggies add too much extraneous stuff that slows their speed down whilst not adding enough that is *needed*. I do have them and use them, especially for the occasional specialist function like copy-pasting a layer, but rarely. Still, I'd rather that there were new editors being worked on and released than not.

@ MCV:

I think that feature was removed in RA2. That is to say, you can have planes like Harriers but if they are not airport bound, they cannot be ordered to redock with the airpad. I think several mods have tried to solve this, but none have done so yet (to my knowledge). This means that if they are to reload at a building, then they need to be like RA2 Harriers.

@ VidiWare & Nema Fakei:

Hmm, I do agree that it is a bit plain/bright, but that is the problem with this strip of colours in the palette; they are always too bright and that hides detail. I can certainly add camo, but that isn't how the launcher was either in the pix or ingame. Similarly I can make the launcher grey, but I'm concerned that it would be both too dark and also not look unified - like the Rocket pods are not part of the vehicle? I'll have a go though and show you what it looks like.

@ VidWare:

You want me to add parabombs and paratroopers? Or do mean that having the Ornis called in from off-screen would be okay?

I have struggled a bit about what to do with Ornis. I think that as Harriers they would work, but that as SuperWeapons they would as well. Since both Ordos and Atreides had them, I thought about either giving them different types, or giving everybody the same type and Atreides an extra one.

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BTW, what's the limit for uploading to a post? I have a 1.5mb animation of the rocket launcher so that you can see all the detail, but I can't upload it... Somebody's gonna tell me it is half a mb now, right? ::)