New Orleans doesn't need houses anyway

[Edric O]

...or so the US government seems to believe:

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/06/20/142210

They've just decided to demolish 5,000 public housing units in New Orleans, even though 200,000 people are still displaced as a result of Hurricane Katrina.

[Tatar Khan]

Well US was never a big fan of social policies. Overall this demolition could be explained as the urban planning. Maybe the plan is to move the low-income class out of the city or to some other part of it where when the reconstruction is over they won't bee seen and everything will look good for the public TV eye view.

[GhostHunter]

Yeah, in case you didn't know, Edric (distance more than anything being the factor), most people would rather *not* have a house than live in the low-income houses provided by the all-expansive American government.

[Tatar Khan]

GhostHunter ciould you clarify your response, because if you have a problem with the american foreign policies this is not the thread discussing that. Personally i beleive that low-income induviduals, that lived in that housing, care very little for the foreign policies of their government and more about how this demolition will affect their lives.

[Edric O]

Yeah, in case you didn't know, Edric (distance more than anything being the factor), most people would rather *not* have a house than live in the low-income houses provided by the all-expansive American government.

If that were true, those houses would be permanently empty. But they were not empty, therefore some people obviously wanted to live there.

[Megashrap]

On a different matter here, I think that alot of the crime going on has to do with alot of the people that received FEMA cash and just blew it. Now what else do they turn to? It's sad yes but, I firmly believe that. It's happened here as well...alot. And the thing is, when you receive FEMA cash, you have to keep records of what all is purchased with it to improve or move away. And trust me from first hand experience....they do come back to check this all out via receipts. It's sort of like a gov. audit, and you better have proof of where the money they allotted you was spent. You have to remember, the Gov. and FEMA spent mega-bucks to those people in need to re-build and relocate. Like they say, "a fool and his money are soon parted."

[Anathema]

After Katrina, everytime I heard the song "House of the rising sun" playing, and after the beginning there is a house in New Orleans I added "not anymore!"

Now I'm going to start doing that again ;D

Bearing in mind that this is a generalisation, lots of FEMA beneficiaries are simply parasites. A while back a lot of Katrina victims were kicked out of their temporary housing (mostly hotels and such). Heart breaking you'd say, except that they got kicked out for avoiding contact with federal workers by hanging up phones and not opening the door for them (and other tactics, they're very crafty). They were apparently quite comfortable with living off the expenses of FEMA.

Recently it also turned out that many of them had also lied when filling in papers to receive disaster relief money. You're not going to believe this, but one even used FEMA money to get gender change surgery!

Social welfare is a good thing in principle, but with the culture of abuse that is so prevalent in the US it's no wonder its under attack from politicians.

Edit: http://edition.cnn.com/2006/US/06/14/fema.audit/index.html

[Megashrap]

Funny, there was one guy in my area who did nothing but spend all4k he recieved on beer, thats right nothing but brewskies. He is now serving time needless to say. Man, I have receipts even for big gulps at our local store. When you get free FEMA cash be prepared for them to return for a justification of all of it.

[Edric O]

A while back a lot of Katrina victims were kicked out of their temporary housing (mostly hotels and such). Heart breaking you'd say, except that they got kicked out for avoiding contact with federal workers by hanging up phones and not opening the door for them (and other tactics, they're very crafty). They were apparently quite comfortable with living off the expenses of FEMA.

Well, if you had nowhere else to go, wouldn't you do the same?

Recently it also turned out that many of them had also lied when filling in papers to receive disaster relief money. You're not going to believe this, but one even used FEMA money to get gender change surgery!

Social welfare is a good thing in principle, but with the culture of abuse that is so prevalent in the US it's no wonder its under attack from politicians.

On the contrary, I think a major problem in the US is the Reaganite tendency to argue your point using specific individual examples rather than general trends. "Look, these two people are abusing a social service! Clearly we should stop providing the service to anyone, because it gets abused!" The fact that a few people use their welfare money (or disaster relief) to buy luxuries does not change the fact that millions of others use it to buy food and necessities. And the media makes things worse through its habit of reporting what goes wrong, not what goes right.

In this case, for example, FEMA handed out money to everyone that was hit by Katrina. Some actually needed the money, some didn't. Those who didn't need it ended up using it on luxuries. And now, obviously, Republicans are slamming the victims - the genuine victims of Katrina - for FEMA's mistakes and the abuses of those who were already well off but received disaster relief anyway.

The US government treats its poor like dirt and then complains when they resort to cheating in order to stay alive. The less you help the poor, the more they will turn to crime, alcohol and drugs, and the more you will hear Republicans saying "we shouldn't be helping these criminals".

[Megashrap]

Well, if you had nowhere else to go, wouldn't you do the same?

The US government treats its poor like dirt and then complains when they resort to cheating in order to stay alive. The less you help the poor, the more they will turn to crime, alcohol and drugs, and the more you will hear Republicans saying "we shouldn't be helping these criminals".

I agree, but the way (in this case hurricane Charley) that FEMA conducted thier assessment of individual houses and the damage was really cheesy. In all honesty I could have lied through my teeth and they would have never known the hurricane caused it. It boiled down to what was damaged, looking around inside and out, then writing it all down. Ten days later I had thousands in the bank of which I had enough to move to a better place and replace all our clothes and a few other things like a window A/C. and a clean up crew for the yard.  I tend to think it comes down to common sense on what to do with The Gov.'s money...that btw will be subject to audit that is even stated on thier website.

[Anathema]

If I had the prospect of several months of free living space and no job at the time, I'd try to get a job. With minmial expenses, I would save up and after FEMA tells me it's time to go, I'll move- but not back to New Orleans. Of course it might not be easy to get a job, but I'd find something else worthwile to do, like get me some home schooling and make plans what to do if my free living time runs out. This is not the mentality of the people I lash at. And in no way would I be so short sighted to think that I can avoid accountability towards the feds and hope that I can stay indefinitely at a hotel for free.

FEMA screwed up with the assesment of victims' need for money and of course the republicans are all over it. But you can blame the "victims" for lieing about their assets and damage to their property. This sort of behaviour after Katrina is to widespread to be just a few rotten apples, there's obviously a pattern here.

About social security, FDR had the right idea with is program but that was during the late thirties and during WW2, with a huge employment rate. Most unemployed were victims of the depression and because of the lack of jobs getting these people back to work wasn't an aim of his policy, and none of his successors really dealt with it. Republicans frequently lash out against social security and maybe overstate how many of them are actually lazy bums (mind you, I'm no fan of Reagan either), but as far as I know, there's no requirement to apply for jobs regulary to receive unemployment money in any of the states. A good part of the problem also stems from apathy- many unemployed could work at a fast food chain or get a blue collar job at a factory, but the wage would be barely higher then unemployment money, killing any motivation to get work.

@scar: you lived in New Orleans when Katrina struck? Where do you live now?

[Edric O]

If I had the prospect of several months of free living space and no job at the time, I'd try to get a job. With minmial expenses, I would save up and after FEMA tells me it's time to go, I'll move- but not back to New Orleans. Of course it might not be easy to get a job, but I'd find something else worthwile to do, like get me some home schooling and make plans what to do if my free living time runs out. This is not the mentality of the people I lash at. And in no way would I be so short sighted to think that I can avoid accountability towards the feds and hope that I can stay indefinitely at a hotel for free.

Maybe they had some plans that required them to stay in that hotel a few more weeks. Maybe they found jobs in the area but had no place to stay (it's not like they could save up money to buy a house). You can't really judge them without any information about what they were doing.

FEMA screwed up with the assesment of victims' need for money and of course the republicans are all over it. But you can blame the "victims" for lieing about their assets and damage to their property. This sort of behaviour after Katrina is to widespread to be just a few rotten apples, there's obviously a pattern here.

Who said it's widespread? And besides, it wasn't the actual victims who lied about their assets - it was often people who didn't even live in New Orleans and found an opportunity to take advantage of FEMA's incompetence. Here are some excerpts from the CNN article you linked to:

The GAO found, for example, that FEMA provided $10 million in housing assistance to people who were not displaced, including more than 1,170 inmates in state and federal prisons, and provided rental assistance to people simultaneously living in free hotel rooms.

In one instance FEMA paid $20,000 to a Louisiana prisoner who listed a post office box as his damaged property, the report said.

GAO investigators estimated $1 billion of FEMA's $6.3 billion in relief payments were made to people who submitted invalid registrations, including incorrect Social Security numbers and bogus addresses.

[...]

Greg Kutz, a GAO forensic auditor, told lawmakers that while the "vast majority" of the money FEMA distributed went to people who should have received it, "a substantial amount of individuals took advantage of the opportunity to commit fraud."

Kutz said in one case, a "fraudster" in West Virginia received a rental assistance check by using the address of a New Orleans cemetery.

And when the GAO tested FEMA's systems by submitting an application with an address that was a vacant lot, FEMA not only paid $2,358 in rental assistance but also sent a letter "saying that their inspection showed damage to our home and personal property," Kutz said.

In one case, FEMA paid $8,000 for an aid recipient to stay in a resort hotel in Honolulu, Hawaii, from October to December 2005, while providing $5,000 in rental assistance, Kutz said.

In fact, the recipient should not have gotten any money because he lived in North Carolina when the hurricane hit, he said.

People in West Virginia, North Carolina and even various prisons took advantage of FEMA. Clearly this isn't a case of poor people being irresponsible with their money, it's a case of the money going to people who were neither poor nor hit by any disaster.

as far as I know, there's no requirement to apply for jobs regulary to receive unemployment money in any of the states.

Yes there is, since Clinton. In fact I heard the requirements are quite draconian, welfare is only given for a limited period of time regardless of how much you need it, and they often deny benefits to people with disabilities. TMA knows more about this.

A good part of the problem also stems from apathy - many unemployed could work at a fast food chain or get a blue collar job at a factory, but the wage would be barely higher then unemployment money, killing any motivation to get work.

...which is a very good argument for raising the minimum wage. In any case, there are not infinite jobs in factories and fast food chains. I haven't heard fast food chains complaining about labour shortages, so they must have all the workers they need (or almost).

I personally favour replacing welfare with public sector jobs for the unemployed. Don't give them money, give them a job working for the government. Guarantee every person's right to a job in the constitution, and use welfare only for those who are physically or mentally unable to work. Problem solved.

[Tatar Khan]

A free rider problem acompanies every social program there are always people who take advantage of it. However that does not mean that everyone takes advantage of it. Unemployment benefit does have a discouraging effect on job search by people but to a limited degree. I beleive it is ussually below the salary the person would be getting if he/she worked. US also has a lot of additional provision tied in to unemployment benefits and welfare. Raising minimal wage might be a goood idea however it might force more companies to head to developing world in search of cheaper labour. As for constitutional guarantee of a job i would argue against it but i don't think this the thread for that.

I think that for the period of reconstruction of the New Orleans the government should step in and provide jobs for its residents. I am sure there is a lot of work to be done for reconstruction. This is the responsabiity of the government especially after how badly was the whole crisis handled. I think the US relief to tsunami stricen countries in Asia arrived faster and more effectively that to New Orleans.

[Caid Ivik]

I so wanted to visit the town after I've read Vampire Chronicles, and now they demolish even what's left? Pityful...