The right way to bet

[Lord J]

Tell me Gunwounds, would I be accurate in saying that your are "dualist" when considering the mind/body problem?  I haven't read your "profession of faith," but judging from your use of the concepts of "heart," and "spirituality" then I would say that you are, most likely dualist.

The problem with Pascal's Wager is that it is based on physicalist concepts.  By following the Wager to its logical end, yes, one does benefit more from belief.  However, it has become obvious to me in your preceding posts that simply "acting" with belief is not the way to be saved.  No matter your actions, if your intent is morally negative or positive, that is what matters. 

If God, intent, free will (obviously) and heaven exists in some non-physical plane, then physical actions should have no bearing when intent and intent alone is the determinant of post-vital existence.

Therefore, as Pascal's Wager only deals with the physical acts of belief, but not the spiritual determinants of post-vital existence, it is a faulty argument for one (like yourself) to whom spirituality is so central.

Please note, I am not attacking you, or your beliefs, simply the logic of their incorporation of Pascal's Wager.

Oh yes, and Edric: One thing you might gain by living a non-religious life is a closer understanding of Marxism for whom, as others have mentioned, religion is recognized as an opiate and a form of control for the weak.

As a note, I'm having an interesting idea concerning third force humanism, dualism, and free will. I may post about it later if I remember.

[Blue]

I am a good person. I do not steal, rape or murder. I do enjoy the occasional drink, and I do have sex outside of marraige. I give to charity and do volunterr work occasionally. I would not consider myself a bad person, and apart from a few discrepancies, I live my life in pretty much according to the rules laid down by the Christian faith. I am however, not a Christian. I'm not religious at all. I'm atheist. Now if spending eternity in the prescence of a God that thought that someone was a "bad person" simply because they didn't believe in him, and sent them to hell for not going to Church then I'm not sure quite how omnibenolavant he actually is. Sending a "good", in the traditional sense of the word, person to hell simply for not believing in God seems awfully arrogant on God's behalf.

Especially since it would appear that the the main Christian arguement to live a "good" life is to get into heavan. Surely a person who gives to charity not believing that he will be rewarded with an eternally happy afterlife if better than someone who does?

[GUNWOUNDS]

You agree with ps501 on the catholic church Gounwounds. Yet, you do not reflect on the fact that it's the catholic church that preserved christianity for fifteen centuries. You accept that there are bad apples, yet fail to see that it's them who spread and preached the word of Christ.

Watch the relatively new movie "Kingdom of heaven"  ... its got that actor in it from lord of the rings...bascially i believe that even tho the church was corrupted.... there were plenty of good apples in the mix who had a higher understanding of faith in God.

You think Martin Luther in the 16th century was the first ever to believe the way he did?  ...many believed like he did... but never spoke openly for it was heresy.  Heck... people even knew the pharisees were corrupt back in jesus's day but that didnt mean everyone was a evil hypocrite.  There are always those who are pure of heart and have proper discernment throughout all times.  So no, i do not believe that corrupt catholics destroyed christianity.  We have catholic priests molesting children today... but does that mean its impossible to find a decent christian?  Of course not.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Tell me Gunwounds, would I be accurate in saying that your are "dualist" when considering the mind/body problem?  I haven't read your "profession of faith," but judging from your use of the concepts of "heart," and "spirituality" then I would say that you are, most likely dualist.

The problem with Pascal's Wager is that it is based on physicalist concepts.  By following the Wager to its logical end, yes, one does benefit more from belief.  However, it has become obvious to me in your preceding posts that simply "acting" with belief is not the way to be saved.  No matter your actions, if your intent is morally negative or positive, that is what matters. 

If God, intent, free will (obviously) and heaven exists in some non-physical plane, then physical actions should have no bearing when intent and intent alone is the determinant of post-vital existence.

Therefore, as Pascal's Wager only deals with the physical acts of belief, but not the spiritual determinants of post-vital existence, it is a faulty argument for one (like yourself) to whom spirituality is so central.

Please note, I am not attacking you, or your beliefs, simply the logic of their incorporation of Pascal's Wager.

Oh yes, and Edric: One thing you might gain by living a non-religious life is a closer understanding of Marxism for whom, as others have mentioned, religion is recognized as an opiate and a form of control for the weak.

As a note, I'm having an interesting idea concerning third force humanism, dualism, and free will. I may post about it later if I remember.

No.. i'm not a dualist... C.S. Lewis debunked Dualism a long time ago.. .. dualism means you believe there is a Good God and an Evil God.. and i have restated his position over and over detailing how this is impossible.

I believe that there will always be a variety of views and interpretations from one absolute moral standard.  This does not mean the absolute standard doesnt exist itself. Its means that people are flawed and cannot either understand the true meaning of the standard or they want to bend the standard to fit their needs or desires.  So i do not feel that i am contradicting myself. 

Also i disagree that pascal's wager only deals with physical acts.  Pascal's Wager states that you can honestly choose to believe in God. TO believe in God means to follow his will... if his will is for you to have a pure heart... then that is spiritual as well... he wants the good acts done with a pure heart.  I said the heart is important.. your intent... but you cannot sleep with a hooker with a good intention of thinking it will strengthen your marriage. Ideally you want to have the actions and the intent to both be good and pure things.  The state of the heart is the most important... but that doesnt mean that acts are meaningless..... certain acts can affect your heart... so you must be careful what you do as well.  You might have a pure heart and love your wife but if you go and sleep with enough hookers you might begin to enjoy womanizing more than you love your marriage and your pure heart gets corrupted.

  So i wouldnt take the extreme view that acts are worthless and heart is the only thing that matters.  If i portrayed that then i am sorry.   I feel that acts and pureness of heart are both important but the state of the heart ultimately decides your fate.... but since acts can affect your heart they must also be taken seriously.  So ideally it would be best to do the right things with the right intent or heart.  Takes time to get it right with discernment but it can be done. 

 Some people say you cannot choose to believe in God. But you can.  Its the same way you teach a child how to speak.  You talk to your children and pretend that he can understand.  You keep speaking to him and eventually he will start to talk back.  And you have taught your child how to speak.  You had to "pretend" at first and go thru the motions... but in the end it became real.  Same way goes for building your faith.  Go through the motions and it will start to happen.  Follow the motions of praying and going to church or meditating.  Go through the actions and eventually it does become real... and when you become a changed person... when you no longer desire to do things you know are wrong and start to follow god's will because you actually want to... then you will open doors to higher level discernment and test and understanding.  Same way that going thru the motions of pronouncing syllables in a childrens book builds a child's understanding and opens doors to more complicated material and tests and understanding.

Perhaps this analogy isnt perfect but if it atleast gives you an inkling of what i am thinking in my head right now ... then it has served its purpose.

[Acriku]

You cannot simply choose to believe in God Gunwounds. Nobody can say "okay, I now believe in God" simply because he saw it was in his favor to do so. Our minds require reasons (even false ones) to believe, that we can accept as good enough reasons why he exists. Believing is different than physical acts of speaking. Believing is a personal trust. Speaking is nothing of that sort. I don't understand that analogy.

[GUNWOUNDS]

I am a good person. I do not steal, rape or murder. I do enjoy the occasional drink, and I do have sex outside of marraige. I give to charity and do volunterr work occasionally. I would not consider myself a bad person, and apart from a few discrepancies, I live my life in pretty much according to the rules laid down by the Christian faith. I am however, not a Christian. I'm not religious at all. I'm atheist. Now if spending eternity in the prescence of a God that thought that someone was a "bad person" simply because they didn't believe in him, and sent them to hell for not going to Church then I'm not sure quite how omnibenolavant he actually is. Sending a "good", in the traditional sense of the word, person to hell simply for not believing in God seems awfully arrogant on God's behalf.

Especially since it would appear that the the main Christian arguement to live a "good" life is to get into heavan. Surely a person who gives to charity not believing that he will be rewarded with an eternally happy afterlife if better than someone who does?

You think that doing all that makes you a "good" person?  None of us are good.  We are all wicked.  No matter how good you think you are.... you are still despciable by God's standards.  Our only hope is to have a savior that allows us to live in divine grace.  By being an atheist you are cutting off your own head because you are alienating yourself from being able to accept the grace.  That is why living a "good" life wont get you into heaven on its own.  And whether or not a christian knows about heaven is irrelevant.  To say that Christians only do good deeds because they want to get into heaven is an overgeneralization and a misunderstanding.  I myself believe heaven exists but when i think of heaven it  means being with my creator.... not some playground or some mansion.. or 40 virgins.   There is nothing wrong with wanting to be reunited with your creator as he wants the same thing..... else he wouldnt have gone through all the trouble of creating an option of redemption.  So striving to align myself with God's will and being happy about seeing him one day is not any less noble than some atheist doing randomly good deeds.

[Acriku]

You think that doing all that makes you a "good" person?  None of us are good.  We are all wicked.  No matter how good you think you are.... you are still despciable by God's standards.  Our only hope is to have a savior that allows us to live in divine grace.  By being an atheist you are cutting off your own head because you are alienating yourself from being able to accept the grace.  That is why living a "good" life wont get you into heaven on its own.  And whether or not a christian knows about heaven is irrelevant.  To say that Christians only do good deeds because they want to get into heaven is an overgeneralization and a misunderstanding.  I myself believe heaven exists but when i think of heaven it  means being with my creator.... not some playground or some mansion.. or 40 virgins.  There is nothing wrong with wanting to be reunited with your creator as he wants the same thing..... else he wouldnt have gone through all the trouble of creating an option of redemption.  So striving to align myself with God's will and being happy about seeing him one day is not any less noble than some atheist doing randomly good deeds.

Hmm... one plus for atheism: we don't think of ourselves as 'despicable' and 'wicked'. And I like how you say "randomly good things." It reveals how you see the issue. Can an atheist perform good deeds for their sake? Not for random occurrences? Apparently not, from the way you expressed it.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Hmm... one plus for atheism: we don't think of ourselves as 'despicable' and 'wicked'. And I like how you say "randomly good things." It reveals how you see the issue. Can an atheist perform good deeds for their sake? Not for random occurrences? Apparently not, from the way you expressed it.

Well my friend.... watch the news.  But i hate to break it to you.. but people are wicked.   Everyone has skeletons in their closet.  Maybe you have had rape masturbation fantasies.. maybe you have fancied murdering someone who has made you angry... maybe you really really wanna cheat on your wife but you are not because you never get the opportunity or you are just too afraid....perhaps you are secretly jealous of someone and wish their misfortune. Our minds are full of evil.  If i could take your mind Acriku and project it onto a screen perhaps i would find some pretty disgusting shit.  But it wouldnt matter and i  wouldnt judge you as it would be just as wicked as anyone else's projected mind.  People can deny these... oh of course because how could we ever know?  We cannot probe their minds.  But people are evil we have evil carnal natures.  Some of us just restrain it as thoughts and never let it become expressed as action.  A rapist is no more evil than a teenage boy wishing he could bend his beautiful coworker over the counter.... the only difference is that the rapist was brave/crazy enough to defy the law to act on his thoughts.  If the same teenage boy was on a deserted island with the pretty coworker after being shipwrecked.....never to be rescued.... would the teenage boy finally give into his desires and rape the girl?  Damn right he would.  If the same teenage boy were to become a king and have to power to execute the person he previously fancied dead.  Would he abuse his power and execute the man?  Damn right he would.  Modern laws are the only thing restraining us from acting out what we project in our minds... except for criminals of course. This does not make us "good" .  This simply makes us "restrained".

So atheists may not fancy themselves wicked... but they are deluding themselves... so their perceived "advantage"  fades away.   

Also... i said "randomly good things in the previous post" because thats how some atheists (especially Blue) make it sound.  Some make it sound as if they do good stuff but for no apparent reason other than they think it makes them "good".  Thats pretty random to me and fallacious.

[GUNWOUNDS]

You cannot simply choose to believe in God Gunwounds. Nobody can say "okay, I now believe in God" simply because he saw it was in his favor to do so. Our minds require reasons (even false ones) to believe, that we can accept as good enough reasons why he exists. That's how I see it, anyway.

You would like to attain faith, and do not know the way; you would like to cure yourself of unbelief, and ask the remedy for it. Learn of those who have been bound like you. These are people who know the way which you would follow, and who are cured of an ill of which you would be cured. Follow the way by which they began; by acting as if they believed, taking the holy water, having masses said, etc...

But to show you that this leads you there, it is this which will lessen the passions, which are your stumbling-blocks. -Pascal

We find two main pieces of advice to the non-believer here: act like a believer, and suppress those passions that are obstacles to becoming a believer. And these are actions that one CAN perform at will.

Believing in God is presumably one way to wager for God. This passage suggests that even the non-believer can wager for God, by striving to become a believer. Critics may question the psychology of belief formation that Pascal presupposes, pointing out that one could strive to believe (perhaps by following exactly Pascal's prescription), yet fail. To this, a follower of Pascal might reply that the act of genuine striving already displays a pureness of heart that God would fully reward; or even that genuine striving in this case is itself a form of believing.

[Lord J]

I was actually speaking of the philosophical position of metaphysical dualism, basically, do you believe in a physical realm (the one with the computer in front of you and you Coke by your hand) and a spiritual/mental realm (where your thoughts, free will, and faith comes from/exist) simultaneously?

[Spectral Paladin]

Gunwounds I 'd like to know your opinion of star wars nerds. Who spend their time analyzing and trying to understand the product of another man's imagination (not even a good one).

[GUNWOUNDS]

Gunwounds I 'd like to know your opinion of star wars nerds. Who spend their time analyzing and trying to understand the product of another man's imagination (not even a good one).

to worship means to invest time.  Thing the you worship is thing the that occupies your thoughts and time the most.  If the star wars nerds think, drink, eat, and analyze star wars and constantly immerse themselves in it... then they could be considered worshippers of G. Lucas's Imagination i suppose.  I dont know if thats the answer you wanted.

[Spectral Paladin]

Actually, I was wondering if you shared my opinion. They put time and effort (and probably money) into "worshipping" a man's imagination. Seems like a waste to me. If it seems like a waste to you as well, you can easily understand why I think a believer is worse off than the non-believer in case God does not exist.

[GUNWOUNDS]

well i have stated many times that this flesh life has an infinitesimally small value compared to the potential existance of an eternal spiritual life.  So if God doesnt exist then it really doesnt mean it was a waste becuz you both become worthless corpses anyways.  status quo.  But if God does exist then the believer gets the infinitely valuable eternal life whereas the non-believer may gain a few happy flesh-life days but its nothing compared to an eternal life.

Its pretty simple to see this as when old people turn 80-90 years old they cant remember everything they enjoyed..... or when you have sex with a girl... a couple hours later you want to do it again and the memory of the sexual experience fades.... so you always want to keep doing it again..... or some really great game you played 3 years ago is but a faded memory in your mind....

Hugh Hefner might have lived one heck of a life (how much has he forgotten?).... but when he is 90 yrs old and on his deathbed... the thought of losing his life... the depression it will cause will erase everything and only make him depressed.  He will look back on his life and wish constantly that he wont die... but he will.  Even if God doesnt exist... when the believer and the non-believer become corpses.. they will both be at status quo.  They will both be corpses rotting in the ground. Perhaps you can leave a mark on other people's memory... but i could care less about that...someone else's memories wont do a thing for you once you are dead.  So no i dont see a problem with the star wars nerds loving someone else's imagination... becuz when "they" die... and "you" die.... you'll both be even.  I know its hard to comprehend but "finite" flesh life is just not that valuable compared to a potential spiritual life.

You can live the best life of anyone.. but eventually you will end up as some old geezer/hag  that nobody will care about... perhaps you will be stuck in a nursing home and there you will be forgotten.  You will lose the capability to feed yourself or use the bathroom and the star wars nerd in the nursing home bed next to you will laugh at you becuz in the end nothing really matters in regards to the flesh life... unless there is a spiritual life waiting for you.  Then what you did in your flesh life actually matters.  Its called the purpose driven life.

[Acriku]

Leading me to believe that many 'believers' are out for solely the spiritual life. They perform morally for a spiritual life. Their moral system is performed for the possibility of a spiritual life. This is the reason why I think not being a believer might have value in this case, because a non-believer would have more virtuous reasons for being moral. But this isn't a big argument of mine, just a thought.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Leading me to believe that many 'believers' are out for solely the spiritual life. They perform morally for a spiritual life. Their moral system is performed for the possibility of a spiritual life. This is the reason why I think not being a believer might have value in this case, because a non-believer would have more virtuous reasons for being moral. But this isn't a big argument of mine, just a thought.

the  problem with your thought is that "doing it for the spirtual world" is exactly why you must do it.  Becuz by doing it for "God" you are doing it in His honor.  You are doing it to praise him... you are doing it to lift him up.. You are also acknowledging that he exists ... allowing yourself to be able to do things such as "repent" and "ask for grace and mercy and salvation".

You must do good things for the spiritual world .....else you do them in vain.  Hence the non-believer doing good acts for no apparrent reason is simply futile randomness.  Just my thoughts.

[Acriku]

In other words, Christians are good for selfish and greedy reasons. Non-believers have other reasons for being good (since they don't use heaven or hell), whether they be the good of society, it falls into their personal morality, etc. That's not futile randomness.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Clarification:  Believers are good for a purpose. Purpose doesnt equate to selfishness. Non-believers are good for no purpose, aka synonymous with randomness.  The arguement might be made that non-believers do good deeds for "benefit of society" or "personal morality"... but since this is infinitesimally insignificant... it might as well be in vain.  Thats why it is random.  Becuz it might as well be since its worthless to perform good acts and fancy yourself "good".  No man shall enter the kingdom of heaven by "works" alone.  Lest he should boast.

Its like one man saying he invented a perpetual energy machine in order to save the universe from destruction (believer)

versus the other man saying he invented a perpetual energy machine to run his electric nose clippers. (non-believer).

Doing good deeds to support and further a spiritual kingdom as your creator commands is doing good for a purpose.

Doing good deeds to make your friends and yourself feel warm and cozy about yourself or to be able to show off and call yourself a "good person" on the dune2k forums amounts to insignificance, futility, and randomness.

[Acriku]

Clarification:  Believers are good for a purpose. Purpose doesnt equate to selfishness. Non-believers are good for no purpose, aka synonymous with randomness.  The arguement might be made that non-believers do good deeds for "benefit of society" or "personal morality"... but since this is infinitesimally insignificant... it might as well be in vain.  Thats why it is random.  Becuz it might as well be since its worthless to perform good acts and fancy yourself "good".  No man shall enter the kingdom of heaven by "works" alone.  Lest he should boast.

Purpose? You're romanticizing the sheer selfishness of getting into heaven. The fact that good deeds done by a non-believer will be in vain also furthers my thoughts that I wouldn't want to worship a god that is so egotistical (omniegotist hehe) that it punishes good people for the simple fact that they don't believe, while people who believe for selfish reasons (pascal's wager, to get into heaven, to not go into hell) are rewarded. As for your clarification, we have a purpose but it isn't comparable to your purpose, eh?

Its like one man saying he invented a perpetual energy machine in order to save the universe from destruction (believer)

versus the other man saying he invented a perpetual energy machine to run his electric nose clippers. (non-believer).

At least I know the clippers will work for sure and that my nose will be mighty clean ;-)

Doing good deeds to support and further a spiritual kingdom as your creator commands is doing good for a purpose.

How do good deeds support a spiritual kingdom? Whether a believer does this good deed or that good deed or not at all, it doesn't seem to 'support' the kingdom. Nor does it seem to further it. I would assume it doesn't go anywhere, so there is futility in saying anything will support or further it. Why do you do good? To get into heaven. It's that simple. Another possible simple answer: to avoid hell. It takes a certain maturity to perform good deeds without the appeal of reward or the terror of punishment. Not to say christians are immature.

Doing good deeds to make your friends and yourself feel warm and cozy about yourself or to be able to show off and call yourself a "good person" on the dune2k forums amounts to insignificance, futility, and randomness.

Damn you got me. The sole reason for me donating 5 bucks of my check every week is so I can tell everyone about it on dune2k.

Some people have this moral system, you might know about it, where helping others live a better life is a worthy goal. I am lucky with what I have, so giving money to charities like United Way helps others live a better life that they were not lucky enough to get. I could use that money for so much else, to make myself even happier, but I don't. Call that a futile or insignificant good deed, if you want. But it wouldn't seem so to the life I am affecting.

[Blue]

Ok ok ok, all your "logical" arguements for believing in God have convinced me. I've converted. I'm now muslim. :)

[GUNWOUNDS]

Ok ok ok, all your "logical" arguements for believing in God have convinced me. I've converted. I'm now muslim. :)

Atleast you're one step in the right direction.  better to believe in a higher power than to be so closed minded as to reject the entire idea altogether.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Purpose? You're romanticizing the sheer selfishness of getting into heaven. The fact that good deeds done by a non-believer will be in vain also furthers my thoughts that I wouldn't want to worship a god that is so egotistical (omniegotist hehe) that it punishes good people for the simple fact that they don't believe, while people who believe for selfish reasons (pascal's wager, to get into heaven, to not go into hell) are rewarded. As for your clarification, we have a purpose but it isn't comparable to your purpose, eh?

At least I know the clippers will work for sure and that my nose will be mighty clean ;-)

How do good deeds support a spiritual kingdom? Whether a believer does this good deed or that good deed or not at all, it doesn't seem to 'support' the kingdom. Nor does it seem to further it. I would assume it doesn't go anywhere, so there is futility in saying anything will support or further it. Why do you do good? To get into heaven. It's that simple. Another possible simple answer: to avoid hell. It takes a certain maturity to perform good deeds without the appeal of reward or the terror of punishment. Not to say christians are immature.

Damn you got me. The sole reason for me donating 5 bucks of my check every week is so I can tell everyone about it on dune2k.

Some people have this moral system, you might know about it, where helping others live a better life is a worthy goal. I am lucky with what I have, so giving money to charities like United Way helps others live a better life that they were not lucky enough to get. I could use that money for so much else, to make myself even happier, but I don't. Call that a futile or insignificant good deed, if you want. But it wouldn't seem so to the life I am affecting.

I give to charity as well, but it wont get me into heaven.  I dont give money to get into heaven. Or to fancy myself a "good person"  or to bragg about my "moral system" or to "make myself feel good"... i dont do good deeds to get into heaven.  Giving money to someone wont make me a "good person"  .... because as a human being i am still rotten to the core....even if i change someone's life for the better.  Doing good deeds to be a "good person" is like giving an aspirin to a dead person. Pointless.  Since doing good deeds do NOTHING for you ... it means that the only intrinsic value they can possibly have is to glorify God.  Period. So doing good deeds for any other reason than to glorify God is doing them in IGNORANCE. Dont get me wrong, good deeds will always be a good thing to do, of course, but to do them for any other reason except to  glorify God is to do them and be ignorant of their true intrinsic value.

Doing good deeds or trying to become the impossible "good person" wont get anyone into heaven and it definately wont make you a "good person".  Believing in God (which allows you to worship Him and accept His system of Redemption) is what will get someone into heaven......Not relying on good deeds to make you a "good person". 

SO its not that i do good deeds for "selfish reasons" its just that i am able to see that only God's transformation in a person's life can save them.... not mere "good deeds" for a "self-created moral system".  I am able to see the true intrinsic value of good deeds. I dont do good deeds to "get into heaven" i simply do them and understand their true intrinsic value.  

[GUNWOUNDS]

How do good deeds support a spiritual kingdom? Whether a believer does this good deed or that good deed or not at all, it doesn't seem to 'support' the kingdom. Nor does it seem to further it. I would assume it doesn't go anywhere, so there is futility in saying anything will support or further it. Why do you do good? To get into heaven. It's that simple. Another possible simple answer: to avoid hell. It takes a certain maturity to perform good deeds without the appeal of reward or the terror of punishment. Not to say christians are immature.

Actually the Good deeds we christians should be doing is showing christ's love. (yea i know i am a jerk sometimes but its something i work on and i know i have an anger problem.) To show others the truth and the light and to help keep them from falling in the pit.

It takes a certain amount of maturity to step up and swallow your pride and be ridiculed by atheists who think they are "more intellectual"  in order to try to save your fellow brothers and sisters who are in danger of spiritual death.

Its so easy to embrace pride and live your own selfish life.... reject/spite your creator, and allow your spiritual siblings to fall because you were to apathetic to care. Its similar to being a rebellious little child who couldnt care less that his father created him or that his brother is drowning in the backyard pool.

And no need to say "not saying that christians are immature" ... because frankly we as humans are immature in comparison to God and we all have our shortcomings....so frankly anyone who thinks they are "so much more mature" is simply fooling themselves.  I know i have a "level" of maturity but that doesnt mean i am uber over someone else or perfectly mature.  And simply being a certain faith simply means you accept the theoretical assumptions under that faith... it doesnt mean that everyone under that faith is exactly the same in terms of maturity.

The fact that good deeds done by a non-believer will be in vain also furthers my thoughts that I wouldn't want to worship a god that is so egotistical (omniegotist hehe) that it punishes good people for the simple fact that they don't believe, while people who believe for selfish reasons (pascal's wager, to get into heaven, to not go into hell) are rewarded.

Sorry but this isnt Burger King.  You dont just walk up to the counter and order a God and "have it your way"  Whether you think He is egotistical is irrelevant... he is your creator and any form of morals or reason flows downward from Him... you cannot challenge a God because you dont "like Him".  When i was a child i thought my Dad was wrong for punishing me too... i swore i would never punish my kids when i grew up.  Boy.... amazing how my beliefs changed since then.  Same way here.  You are simply like a child spiting your father saying that the punishment is unfair.... but if it were possible for you to "grow up" (no offense ..just going with the analogy) and understand His Plan then it wouldnt seem so "egotistical or unfair".  Also please dont put words in my mouth or miscommunicate my arguements.  I never said that someone who follows Pascal's Wager in a purely selfish manner would get into heaven.  Pascal Himself said that you had to truly believe with a pure heart.  The wager is simply to show someone that there is logic in believing in God. Conditioning the heart is up to the person.

You cannot simply choose to believe in God Gunwounds. Nobody can say "okay, I now believe in God" simply because he saw it was in his favor to do so. Our minds require reasons (even false ones) to believe, that we can accept as good enough reasons why he exists. That's how I see it, anyway.

You would like to attain faith, and do not know the way; you would like to cure yourself of unbelief, and ask the remedy for it. Learn of those who have been bound like you. These are people who know the way which you would follow, and who are cured of an ill of which you would be cured. Follow the way by which they began; by acting as if they believed, taking the holy water, having masses said, etc...

But to show you that this leads you there, it is this which will lessen the passions, which are your stumbling-blocks. -Pascal

We find two main pieces of advice to the non-believer here: act like a believer, and suppress those passions that are obstacles to becoming a believer. And these are actions that one CAN perform at will.

Believing in God is presumably one way to wager for God. This passage suggests that even the non-believer can wager for God, by striving to become a believer. Critics may question the psychology of belief formation that Pascal presupposes, pointing out that one could strive to believe (perhaps by following exactly Pascal's prescription), yet fail. To this, a follower of Pascal might reply that the act of genuine striving already displays a pureness of heart that God would fully reward; or even that genuine striving in this case is itself a form of believing.

[Spectral Paladin]

I am disappointed at you gunwounds. You don't look like the man who's searching for excuses. Man is evil by nature? What a wonderful excuse for the times you 're too 'weak' to refrain from sinning.

Man can be good...but first he has to free himself from everything that would keep him from doing bad...and then realise he has no need to do bad. It's surprising how many get stuck in those two steps. Those who hang on to moral restraints and religious rules, afraid of what they could do free of them...And those who realise there are no such things but are too immature to handle this knowledge...they get a false sense of superiority over the others.

Consider this example: you have a kid with a chocolate. There is another kid besides him, with no chocolate. Now according to what his parents have been teaching him, he should share the chocolate with other kid.

So the categories described above are these: Kid A, who will reluctantly give some of the chocolate, because 'that's what he should do'.

Kid B, who understands he really has no obligation to give any chocolate and devour it all.

And Kid C, who understands that noone really obliges him to share his chocolate, but he doesn't actually need to eat it all either. So he will give some of it.

Kid C is good in the true sense of the word. None of the others deserve a place in heaven.

[GUNWOUNDS]

I am disappointed at you gunwounds. You don't look like the man who's searching for excuses. Man is evil by nature? What a wonderful excuse for the times you 're too 'weak' to refrain from sinning.

Man can be good...but first he has to free himself from everything that would keep him from doing bad...and then realise he has no need to do bad. It's surprising how many get stuck in those two steps. Those who hang on to moral restraints and religious rules, afraid of what they could do free of them...And those who realise there are no such things but are too immature to handle this knowledge...they get a false sense of superiority over the others.

Consider this example: you have a kid with a chocolate. There is another kid besides him, with no chocolate. Now according to what his parents have been teaching him, he should share the chocolate with other kid.

So the categories described above are these: Kid A, who will reluctantly give some of the chocolate, because 'that's what he should do'.

Kid B, who understands he really has no obligation to give any chocolate and devour it all.

And Kid C, who understands that noone really obliges him to share his chocolate, but he doesn't actually need to eat it all either. So he will give some of it.

Kid C is good in the true sense of the word. None of the others deserve a place in heaven.

Except that you forgot Child "D".... the child who was taught the true intrinsic value of good deeds and therefore does not do them in ignorance or self-righteousness like child "C".

However to be honest, your child with the chocolate example is pretty pathetic... perhaps the child shared his chocolate because he was lonely and wanted to make a friend.  Most children do things on pure impulse... to say that it was done out of righteousness is silly.  You can say a child is "innocent" but you cannot say a child is "righteous".

All i have to say to you is... "Show me one Good man".  No Man can live up to Absolute Good Standards. (i.e. Moral Law).  Hence, grace is needed.

And you are full of it if you think that its as easy as "following 2 steps" in order to be a "good" person.  Yes just "magically free yourself of all the stuff that makes you do bad", huh?  And then "magically realize that you dont have to do that stuff anymore".  No Really Sherlock?  Dang, thank goodness you are here Captain Obvious to solve mankind's problems.  You are totally downplaying man's evil carnal nature.  We humans are merely restrained by laws and expectations... no one is truly good except for God.  And i dont mean religious laws and expectations... even unbelievers are subject to governmental laws and expectations as well as societal norms and expectations.  People act differently in anarchy.  Take a look at the LA RiotsLooting  or the New Orleans Looting in the USA.... when restraints are gone people show their true colors.

You have to teach a child how to tell the truth and to share.  You dont have to teach a child to lie or be selfish.  It comes quite natural to them.  I cant even believe you are trying to debate whether man is evil.  You may fancy yourself and others "good"  .... but i would bet cash money that if you were placed on an island with no laws and no restrictions you would do whatever you pleased and the evil that is restrained and surpressed would erupt ala Lord of the Flies.  You could argue that there are people who still act "good" or "nice"  but this would be a defensive mechanism born out of fear.  Sort of the same way a "scared" dog rolls over on his back as a sign of submission.  Fear does not equate to righteousness. And restrained evil behind a facade of "Good" does not equate to righteousness.

Whats with the poorly thought out cliched analogies like "kids with chocolate".  I expect better from you Spectral.  I make no excuses here, i tell it like it is.  I certainly hope you arent trying to claim you are a rightous person with your wonderful 2-step strategy. You say it would be nice to be free of religious restraints, moral restraints, i guess you want freedom from governmental restraints too right?  No more speed limit?  No more rape laws.  No restraint of any kind.  Get a clue man.... the world as we know it is full of everyday things that you take for granted but are actually indicative of man's evil nature.

Why do people sign contracts?  Your word should be good enough... but we all know that contracts must be signed because man cant be trusted to keep his word.  Why do people lock their doors at night?  Because they know you cant trust people to not come in your house.  Why do banks have vaults?  Cuz you cant trust people not to take the cash.  The world has blatant evidence of man's evilness... you just choose to keep your head in the sand cuz you wanna feel cozy in your house thinking you are a nice person while you perform impure acts and think impure thoughts.

Guns.