Linkspartei takes Germany by storm

[Edric O]

A triumph for the German Left! Die Linkspartei (a coalition between the primarily eastern-based PDS and the primarily western-based WASG) more than doubled its share of the vote in Sunday's parliamentary elections, and went from 2 to 54 seats in the Bundestag.

http://www.parties-and-elections.de/germany.html

Everyone expected Chancellor Schr

[Egeides]

Boy, I don't like that... instantly, the first image that came to my mind with "triumph for the German Left" is pre-Nazi Germany... the fascist party is going quite well in Germany right now...

For those who wonder, Germany's pre-nazi years was a time where the (idealistic/utopic?) Communists was surging, and (pragmatic/cynic?) fascism took the place.

History repeats, but never in the same way. Universal tendencies, within particular situations. I don't know the exact situation but I dislike that :(

[Caid Ivik]

Fascists were also idealistic and they were chosen because they convinced Germans that only extreme solutions could be effective. And same counts for the communists which took over ie here after the war...

[Edric O]

Boy, I don't like that... instantly, the first image that came to my mind with "triumph for the German Left" is pre-Nazi Germany... the fascist party is going quite well in Germany right now...

No, it isn't. That's another good thing about these election results: The fascists (NPD) saw no increase in their votes whatsoever! The people aren't getting polarized between the far left and far right; in fact, their political opinions haven't changed much at all. It was the mainstream political parties who moved, not the voters. The mainstream parties moved to the right, and got punished for it.

For those who wonder, Germany's pre-nazi years was a time where the (idealistic/utopic?) Communists was surging, and (pragmatic/cynic?) fascism took the place.

History repeats, but never in the same way. Universal tendencies, within particular situations. I don't know the exact situation but I dislike that :(

Indeed, history repeats, but never in the same way... which is what gives me hope: The communists stand a much better chance of winning this time around. (well, assuming things actually get to that point - Der Linkspartei is by no means communist, and they're not going to win a 51% majority any time soon; there's still a long way ahead)

Fascists were also idealistic and they were chosen because they convinced Germans that only extreme solutions could be effective. And same counts for the communists which took over ie here after the war...

Germany had extreme problems in the early 1930's. Extreme solutions were needed. Unfortunately, there is such a thing as the wrong extreme solutions...

[Caid Ivik]

In one way or another, counterfinality occurs with each change. Stronger cure, more side effects. Altough all could be justified, as ie materialist communism did not accepted aspects of moral ties or like fascism its victims ideologically dehumanized.

[Egeides]

Fascists were also idealistic and they were chosen because they convinced Germans that only extreme solutions could be effective. And same counts for the communists which took over i here after the war...

Sorry, my terms weren't defined as needed. I agree that both are idealistic and try to apply in empiric reality, while I'd say that the ideologies on which they are based (thus goals, rhetoric, supporters...) are based on opposites (which once face to reality become similar in many points).

I'll try like this:

Idealistic: Aiming at goodies for everyone (justice, wealth, peace...), reality being "rational and good comes out of rational" thus we can run after both rabits at once. To be sustainably supported, twists can be done to make it coherent in the real world (historians' debates about Marx's doctrine in actual history, not theory, are nice to give a look at. That's not to say he brings nothing pertinent, but that to eliminate a reality is utopian in nature ie.materialism, USA/corporations are complete evil, everyone will be equal and peaceful, manicheanisms of all kinds...). Lenin got a surprise when he passed from theory to application. And Tolstoi too.

Pragmatic: Aiming at down-to-earth efficiency, not goodies since it's not "how the emperical world is" thus Good-Rational dissociation. Can be promoted by rhetoric/demagogy of greatness, military mystique and so on; since the ideology brings that what is efficient is good with power as the goal and not a mean, its goal is despirited and circular, thus bringing a need to patch it to give the impression that power and greatness are actually ultimate goals ie.power as a goal is moral via material pragmatism.)

If the tao is balance, I wonder which of these sides is yin and which is yan. Both need certain twists to rationality to sustain themselves and their coherence. (It's interesting, but I didn't go further on this)

I do not have enough direct knowledge of the subject, but some could say that in one case it is more Platonician (yet, pushed to extremes), or Aristotelian (pushed to extremes). Absolute extrapolations are no good.... I want both True-Good-Moral association, and this done from what we have within political laws of PR-$-political-etc capital organization (Newtonian cause-effect forces, not tricks and artifices with mystic mythos).

EdricO: Sure... but how ACTIVE are they? Nazi party took the whole place while not having everyone on its side at all; by pragmatism, they accepted anyone pushing their party (skinheads to industrials). Out of chaos it could impose its order (with Reichstag fire, people's loose energy could be driven in a given direction more easily). What is it... erm... Ordo ab chaos? whattever ;D And for this 1929 thingy, I don't think we're out of bubble-world, the house market and debt being one aspect (for a global view with some points, I found this text more substantial than The Economist's equivalent: http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/11/21/104921/15).

And besides, from what I heard of the broad lines, the scene looks so similar in Italy right now. Both sides surge. Of course, as Caid brings, I'd say they both think their view is pragmatic AND ideal, but ideologically speaking their framework is more towards "hippy-style" idealistic over-simplification or "we must ideally act based on empirical restrictions". What is your choice: Beautiful-Atlantide-Party or Strong-Sparta-Party? Then, I still prefer to chose between some parlementarian democracy's two similar parties :P

PS: Before anyone brings this in, I know that not all hippies/idealistic were overestimating good factors and such, but there's a part that I believe was utopic and methodologically weak (unsound sources and bases, etc). I met and heard of hippies and people in this that weren't all trapped into this and did things, but also of communities that got everything but what they expected (anti-organization/discipline for freedom...). When the spirit is very positively/negatively looking, some tend to overdo it. Ghandi and Jesus still lived on this planet.

[Caid Ivik]

That makes it clear, my philosophic thinking sometimes miss your politological thoughts  ;D

[nemafakei]

Does anyone see any viable option other than an SDP/Green coalition condoned by the LP (with a remote possibility of an LP cabinet member)? It represents the political centre of opinion expressed.

[Edric O]

The SPD and LP will never work with each other. Both have made this pretty clear. We're much more likely to see a "grand coalition" between the SPD and CDU/CSU.

[nemafakei]

Not necessarily 'work with'.

Merely that the LP will more readily vote for an SDP/Green minority government and serve in opposition (thus holding a fair bit of rein) than allow a CU/SDP coalition.

[Caid Ivik]

CDU/SDP...what those Germans were voting for?

[Dude_Doc]

Unfortunately, the nationalists are gaining ground where I live. It seems so idiotic when we live in this age and there are still nationalism amongst the people...

:'(

[KALONY]

hey....the fact that the LP got such a voting result is nice...true...but the voting itself is a desaster for germany....because we have no government right now...no1 reached a majority so they r trying to make a big coalition

[exatreide]

Edric, It's a good thing that the German left won over the German right I guess, I just wish it would happen in my nation.

And in the picture you shown, it's Die linkspartei, while in your post you called them Der linkspartei. Just a little thing I noticed.

[Edric O]

hey....the fact that the LP got such a voting result is nice...true...but the voting itself is a desaster for germany....because we have no government right now...no1 reached a majority so they r trying to make a big coalition