Some ideas ^_^

[terabyte]

Hello forum!

This is my first post and i hope its beneficial...

I do not play dune games but i played all c&c titles

(from the original c&c to c&c generals)

And heck... i played yer game and enjoyed it...

I bet adding new technologies to the 3 houses will greatly improve it...

Like using stealth technology, mimicry technology, underground transportation, transport trains

i have also ideas for new units such as the "Pod" which can deal tremendous damage to tanks but is weak to infantry...

and a the "Mimic" a demolition tank which can disguise itself as an enemy unit(tanks)

and we need stealth units too...!

BTW... email me if u need sketches of those units!

[MrFlibble]

I bet adding new technologies to the 3 houses will greatly improve it...

Like using stealth technology, mimicry technology, underground transportation, transport trains

The question of adding new technologies is quite controversial, to my point. Although D2TM is a stand-alone game it directly adheres to 'Classic Dune 2' and, to some extent, follows the Dune 2 canon.

However, there are some general comments on your proposal:

IMHO, underground transportation and transport trains can not be added because of the specifics of Dune: most of the area is covered with sand, in which sandworms dwell and will devour any subterranean (sub-sandian? ;)) apcs that come around, not to say anything about trains for which you won't be able even to place rails...

Stealth technology is quite good, although not present in Dune 2 canon (until Stealth Raiders in Dune2k v1.6), but I have serious doubts about the mimic tech. As I understand, it comes from the Generals' GLA Demo Truck? A very specific and hardly realistic tech: a unit that can disguise as a Devastator or a Trike at will? ???

However, you shouldn't consider my post as an ultimate rejection of your ideas, terabyte. No way. I'm just expressing my own humble opinions ;)

[ant222]

Tunnels may be dwelled in rocks. Rails may be layd on plateaus. Armoured artillery trains would serve as highly mobile and though powerfull artillery battaries, being a new unit class. Armoured trains were very widely used by the Red and the White during the cvil war in Russia in the conditions of vast open spaces and lack of a continuous front line - resembling those for Dune-2. At least, they may patrol around bases.

But, in general, I agree to MrFlibble: new technologies should fit (more or less) into the Dune universe in order to preserve the excelent atmosphere of the original game.

[MrFlibble]

Tunnels may be dwelled in rocks. Rails may be layd on plateaus.

Agreeable, but again, if we stick to Dune 2, there would be no use, as, at least in the original Dune 2 maps, the percent of terrain that consists of rocks and plateaus is rather low - roughly enough to build bases. Fight for buildable land was a part of the gameplay, why should we alter that?

[ant222]

As I said, they may patrol round bases. And there may be long moutain ridges (quite rare on Dune, which makes them strategically important) suitable for rails, allowing for the use of armoured trains as high range transport and battle units. Rail transport will be much fatser than sand vehicles, with 10-15 times higher tonnage, and much less expensive than carryalls.

[MrFlibble]

However, these trains won't substitute for carryalls entirely, as the suitable places for railroads are rare. So trains are an optional issue, if the commander has enough solaris to invest into it. On the other hand, if someone wants to have his stronghold at the Shield Wall, this will be a must-have in his defences, but won't help in spice harvesting operations.

Probably trains can be added as unbuildable campaign units.

[Gilneas]

I think the only Strategy game I've seen trains in is Battle Isle...

I don't think it really fits a Dune feel. Nor is it very efficient to code if it's only going to be used in a few scenario maps.

[ant222]

I think the only Strategy game I've seen trains in is Battle Isle...

Me too. And what?

I don't think it really fits a Dune feel. Nor is it very efficient to code if it's only going to be used in a few scenario maps.

If all unit types were available in every mission they would become usual and no as interesting as rare special units. The Palace was available only in the two latest missions in Dune-2, as I remember. Every campaign may have 1-2 mission(s) with armoured trains. As to the Dune atmosphere, I don't find them unsuitable for it.

And I agree to Flibble's last post.

[nemafakei]

Idea: aircraft orders.

Through your mentat, you should be able to give orders as to the behavoiour of aircraft under your control.

Spotter Orders: (I've mostly finished the gfx for spotters - they have a carryall body with flapping orni wings)

Reconnaisance

Search for Spice blooms

Protect harvesters

Search for Reinforcements *

Ornithopter Orders:

Defend Harvesters

Attack Harvesters

Defend Base

Attack Base

Attack Ground Units

Attack Aircraft

Carryall Orders:

Repair Vehicles

Protect Harvesters

Ferry Harvesters

Search for Reinforcements *

* Reinforcements - depend on no. of spotters and carryalls, no. of adjacent friendly territories. Reinfocements may bring back allied forces (e.g. Fremen if Atreides). With only 1 carryall (min), very small success rate - you need a high cash investment for this  to be practical. Perhaps some *very* exceptional surprises (e.g. Fremen in Harkonnen uniform, based on regional assessment - with a mentat explanation, of course).

As to trains, they'd be an interesting addition, but they would be very much an addition to the dune universe. I don't really D2TM would be the ideal game to add them to.

[ant222]

I proposed similar high-level orders for Fremen in reply #14 in the thread

[stefanhendriks]

Controlling your orni's was done in the latest D2TM demo of the prevous engine... If it was released? I had a version where i could build tons of orni's, keep them at my bsae, and then simply send them off to the enemy when i wanted. It was quite cool. I suppose some simple control centre should be sufficient to manage aircraft. How to implement this practically, is uncertain.

[MrFlibble]

Why don't you approve of trains?

I guess it will require quite some work to add them to the game (graphics, coding, etc.), and the restrictions of train use discussed above put the worth of such addition to question.

I think the only Strategy game I've seen trains in is Battle Isle...

In CnC:TS trains were unbuldable campaign units in several missions. Mostly as an objective to destroy or capture. They could crush any unit with ease, yet looked incredibly tiny compared to infantry and especially vehicles.

[nemafakei]

"What if the player wants to have a half of his topters cover spice operations (defend harvesters) and a half search and destroy enemy harvesters. Will it be possible in your proposal?"

Oops - forgot to mention - the assignment would be done by sliders indicating how many you would allocate to each task.

"I guess it will require quite some work to add them to the game (graphics, coding, etc.), and the restrictions of train use discussed above put the worth of such addition to question."

Basically this, plus the fact that trains were never mentioned in the books and to import a rail transportation system into a world where trains would be rather unsuitable (mostly worm-infested sand). It's also quite difficult to make trains drawn in 2d look realistic unless you restrict them not to change direction. Even TS, which had a 3d engine for units, didn't really pull it off.

[ant222]

Plus the fact that trains were never mentioned in the books...

Have all the Dune-2 units been mentioned in the books?

It's also quite difficult to make trains drawn in 2d look realistic unless you restrict them not to change direction. Even TS, which had a 3d engine for units, didn't really pull it off.

One cell per carriage, 3-6 carriages per train. Each carriage has gfx like a single vehicle. Thus, trains will be able to smoothly pass turns and assume arbutrary direction along the rail road. Fortunately, in the Dune-2 style iso engine units in adjacent cells do not hide one another. I seems practicable, although some propblems will be met. It would be easier on the hex grid...

... to import a rail transportation system into a world where trains would be rather unsuitable (mostly worm-infested sand).

Yes, trains are bond to rail roads which, in turn, are attached to rock plateaus. This makes thains rarely useful units. I think it is not only a drawback but also an advantage: exotic units add interest to the game.

Furthermore, every time your base doesn't occupy a whole plateau, a rail road may be built along the perimeter so that a train

[nemafakei]

Well not directly, but near enough. Missiles, artillery, atomic weaponry. The terms 'Rocket Launcher', 'Siege Tank', and 'Death Hand' were not used, I'll grant, but nevertheless. Harvesters, Ornithopters, and Carryalls, in particular, were mentioned. The refining of spice was also mentioned, though more in terms of the harvester itself. If it were up to me, D2TM would have shields as well.

"One cell per carriage, 3-6 carriages per train. Each carriage has gfx like a single vehicle."

I was working on that assumption. Getting them to look 'hooked up' would be quite a challenge.

We're working in 8 directions, still. TS worked in 32. 45 degree turns take place over one square.

Artillery I'm fine with. It all depends on what Stefan wants. I'm just not confident that I can do a convincing train, and even if I could. It's just so 'exotic' I don't see how you would use them.

Ok, perhaps I shouldn't complain so much - I feel a bit guilty. It's an idea, which is always good. It's just not something I'm prepared to work on unless I can see a good place and reason to use it.

[MrFlibble]

Furthermore, every time your base doesn't occupy a whole plateau, a rail road may be built along the perimeter so that a train

[ant222]

The train cannot be omnipresent

No units can...

...and it may block entrances to base and so on.

What is the entrance to the base? - the whole perimeter.

A perimeter of turrets and walls doesn't have such drawbacks and thus seems to be more efficient.

Say nine turrets and forty wall blocks. That is many times (10-20 ?) more expensive and labour-intensive (and long!) to build (at least, in reality; I don't know how it'll be in D2TM)! The player may lack resources and time sufficient to accomplish such a solid fortification work. A mobile armoured train has a better efficiency/price ratio. Motionless walls and huge turrets are much easier targets for the enemy gunners than a mobile train, although a train has weeker armor.

One cell per carriage, 3-6 carriages per train. Each carriage has gfx like a single vehicle."

I was working on that assumption. Getting them to look 'hooked up' would be quite a challenge.

An idea: not the train, but the motorized armoured carriage, two game cells (is it possible?) in the length. These were used in 1917-1920 and during the Great War by the Russians.

[Gilneas]

Hmm... I like the sound of that. I can see the use of it now.

I wouldn't mind seeing that implanted in the game.

[nemafakei]

Let me remind you that it takes trains quite a distance to turn corners. A 2-cell train is going to be expected to turn 45 degrees in the space of half its length?

[ant222]

No. In the space of its length. Rectilinear zones of the rail road must be not shorter than 2 cells (diagonally, vertically or horizontally).

[MrFlibble]

I dunno. What if we start implementing any good idea into game? Say, stealth tanks (C&C), spies, electric tanks, teleporting devices (Red Alert), mutant commandos, subterranean APCs (Tiberian Sun), mirage tanks (RA2) - mirages happen often in deserts, - all EBFD stuff (including Emperor Worm), orc grunts, elven archers, goblin sappers (just joking here ;D)

We should define certain limints to our limitless imagination. Otherwise we'll have chaos :P

EDIT:

My final argument against trains.

A mobile armoured train has a better efficiency/price ratio. Motionless walls and huge turrets are much easier targets for the enemy gunners than a mobile train, although a train has weeker armor.

Okay, this might be true, but several tanks or other vehicles patrolling the perimeter would be even more cost-effective than trains as they don't require rails and have better maneuverability. Combine turrets with vehicles - you get the 'classic' defense you'd use in Dune 2 too: in order not to get smashed by missile launchers, player had to rely on both turrets and mobile forces in defense.

[stefanhendriks]

for a start, let some game be running before adding wild ideas like these. I don't find it very dunish... (trains and such). I would say, use choam support, let it fly over. Etc.

[ant222]

Sorry, MrFlibble, I didn't notice your "Edit" at once.

We should define certain limints to our limitless imagination. Otherwise we'll have chaos...

Only one with a poor limited imagination can spoil the game by the addition of all types of units he can think of and he've seen in other futuristic games ;)

Okay, this might be true, but several tanks or other vehicles patrolling the perimeter would be even more cost-effective than trains as they don't require rails and have better maneuverability. Combine turrets with vehicles

Trains are faster and they carry heavier wepons. Long-range guns from war ships (2 guns + 4-8 machine guns per carriage) were often installed on thains because trains are capable of carrying much heavier loads than any other ground vehicles — thanks to rails.

As to your note, Stefan, yeah, you may be right in some ways. And you are the main developer. But you mentioned

[MrFlibble]

Where'd you take long range guns from war ships on Dune? ??? You'd have to import them via CHOAM, special order, that would cost LOTS of solaries I think. However, Atreides could have brought some from Caladan (they have cruisers there, don't they?)

[ant222]

Where'd you take long range guns from war ships on Dune

Guns from war ships were just an example. Why only from war ships? That can be any suitable guns including those heavier than tank guns...

You'd have to import them via CHOAM, special order, that would cost LOTS of solaries I think.

What about the production of other vehicles (quads, tanks)? You mean a special order is more expensive? Then, what about sonic tanks, devastators, reiders? Are their parts delivered to Dune by special oreders too?

Atreides could have brought some from Caladan (they have cruisers there, don't they?)

Is that a smart way to check my loyality and find out if I am a secret agent on Caladan engaging in espionage in favour of the Ordos?