Super Heavy Tanks and other prototype WW2 weapons.

[Dunenewt]

Was just looking through a few history sites, and I found these, truly super heavy tanks, weighing over 1000 tons. 

The Ratte P-1000 (two different concepts for it here):

http://members.tripod.com/~fingolfen/superheavy/p1000.html

http://www.panzerschreck.de/panzer/pzkpfw/p1000.html

The Monster P-1500: (again two different versions, but not so much difference this time):

http://members.tripod.com/~fingolfen/superheavy/p1500.html

http://www.panzerschreck.de/panzer/pzkpfw/p1500.html

Although not very practical, what kind of impact do you think these tanks would have had if the war lasted an extra year?

There was also Air-to-air guided missiles as well ( http://www.luft46.com/missile/x-4.html ), Swing-wing fighters ( http://www.luft46.com/mess/mep1102.html ), Tilt-Rotor Planes ( http://www.luft46.com/misc/wes1003.html ), UFO shaped planes ( http://www.luft46.com/misc/sackas6.html ), Hypersonic Bombers ( http://www.luft46.com/misc/sanger.html ), and even Thunderbird 3 ( http://www.luft46.com/fw/fwtrieb.html )!

Am I the only one who finds this interesting?

[Caid Ivik]

Perhaps this would be more useful.

[Caid Ivik]

It was a will of every front general, not only Hitler. In 1943 was yet possible to win at russian front, year later it was a pure defence.

[Dunenewt]

They also planned to launch a V-2 type weapon from a U-Boot.

[exatreide]

The only thing that could have won the war for Germany after invading the soviets...

Was complete domination of the technological, and war productions, and removal of innept commanders(cough hitler)

If Germany had managed to Produce, send, and equip more resources to the Eastern front the war could have been very different..

A Standerized defenseive line in Russia would have also been good to..

Till the very end of the war.. It still took somewhere around 10 soviets to kill one German.

Germany Could have beat the Soviets, if they acted fast, hard, and smart enough against a overwelemed,underequiped, and demoralized enemy.

No Wonder weapon could have done anything beside slow the fall, and if they waited to long..

We would have used the A- Bombs on German cities.

[Dunenewt]

Some very dodgy statistics there.  10 Russians to 1 German is very wrong.  That may be the case with the elite units, but in general that figure is wrong as the Russian troops weren't all bad, and some, like the troops which came down from Siberia, were much better than the Germans.

A-Bomb the cities?  They did create the B-36 Peacemaker for that but I don't think it would have happened as if the war took that long, then there is the possibility that Germany would have also had the A-Bomb, and they most certainly had the most advanced planes.  USA was relying on the UK for advanced planes, whilst Germany had fast jet bombers and rocket fighters already in the air.

[Jack Leaf]

A good example of a super weapon is Maus, which only two were completed. The first one was destroyed by the Germans themself, because they were afraid that the Russians will capture it. The second one's crew surrendered to a massive Russian force after using all the ammunition of its both guns.

In my opinion all that could have happened to the other super weapons if they weren't manufactured a lot earlier (1940?).

[Dunenewt]

The Maus was never used operationally.  The second Maus (v2) was built, and destroyed by the Germans so it didn't fall in to Russian hands, and the first one never had a turret, iirc.

[exatreide]

Some very dodgy statistics there.

[Dunenewt]

lol the only reason the Mustang was a success was because we put a decent engine in it.  And we gave you jet technology, and we had a jet fighter by the end of the war which you did not.

They attacked in waves like that because it was the only thing they could do, they could not retreat, and in the end, this tactic worked. 

If the war had gone on, both Germany and Japan would have had nuclear weapons too.

[exatreide]

No, They could have used flanking manuvers, encirclement, strategy. But atacking in waves was the fastest way, Stalin did not care about how many men survived, just fast results.

Well don't forget, if it wasn't for us, you brits would be under the Nazi boot, as you would have all starved to death and surenderd two weeks after a german set foot. You would not have been able to win the battle of britian if it wasn't for American suplies  ;)

Germany and Japan would not have had nukes,other advanced tech yes, but not nukes.

[GhostHunter]

Plus the fact that the Superfortress was so advanced that it didn't need to be jet powered to be the best..

[Dunenewt]

I think Ex is under the boot of the American Propaganda machine.  We would not have been starved to death, and we would have never surrendered, especially with the greatest leader of WW2 and one of greatest in the world as our Prime Minister. We would have fought on and on, like the Greeks and Norwegians, and the French Resistance.  Do you know much about WW2? I doubt it a lot.  If it wasn't for the British and Norwegians, Germany would have developed an atomic bomb, and they would have given it to the Japanese, and they both already had radioactive material.  If your country is so great, why did it not help Poland, Czechoslovakia, and Norway, when the war started?

The Superfortress was good, but nothing compared to what the Germans had  (they had one four piston engined bomber in development, before the Russians destroyed the factory, that had a speed of over 450mph, and that's not to mention the jet and rocket ones), and the Russians arguably had a better bomber in the Tu-3, I believe it was called.  We gave you your best fighter, and jet technology, which was the most advanced out there at the time.  Also, I would say that our Mosquito was much more of a success than the Superfortress.

[Jack Leaf]

The first Allied jetengine fighter was slower than the fastest Allied propeller fighter (can't remember names, sorry).

Germans had already cut an atom in the 30s, so if they really would have wanted to produce an atomic weapon,  they would have done it before -45.

[Caid Ivik]

Actually, their researchers counted, that they would need a ton of clean uranium to make the critical mass for the bomb, so it took more time...

I think Ex is under the boot of the American Propaganda machine.  We would not have been starved to death, and we would have never surrendered, especially with the greatest leader of WW2 and one of greatest in the world as our Prime Minister. We would have fought on and on, like the Greeks and Norwegians, and the French Resistance.  Do you know much about WW2? I doubt it a lot.  If it wasn't for the British and Norwegians, Germany would have developed an atomic bomb, and they would have given it to the Japanese, and they both already had radioactive material.  If your country is so great, why did it not help Poland, Czechoslovakia, and Norway, when the war started?

The Superfortress was good, but nothing compared to what the Germans had  (they had one four piston engined bomber in development, before the Russians destroyed the factory, that had a speed of over 450mph, and that's not to mention the jet and rocket ones), and the Russians arguably had a better bomber in the Tu-3, I believe it was called.  We gave you your best fighter, and jet technology, which was the most advanced out there at the time.  Also, I would say that our Mosquito was much more of a success than the Superfortress.

Yes, really, where have you been when we had the chance? Don't forget that France was conquered by PzKpfW II tanks, based on cs.vzor 38  ;D

With that german four-engine bomber, do you mean Heinkel He 177? For it was really produced and used at fronts, however its engine system had frequent failures. Perhaps they should once choose, whether they want a heavier stuka or a strategic bomber. Of german bombers, much more interesting is Arado Ar 234 and Junkers Ju 287. Also there was one propeller fighter able to catch up Mosquitoes, Dornier Do 335.

[Dunenewt]

The first Allied jetengine fighter was slower than the fastest Allied propeller fighter (can't remember names, sorry).

Yes, but they were both British in fact the first ever Allied Jet plane took off just over the road from where I live, literally, at the Hucclecote/Brockworth Airfield (which is a matter of conflict and pride between the two villages, although the little bit in between, where I live, might be changing its name to Whittlesfield in honour of Sir Frank Whittle who invented the Jet engine.

No Caid, I'm refering to a different plane, a Junkers, can't tell you which one because I'm at my girlfriends right now.

I have a couple of plastic models of the Arado Ar234 "Blitz".  Yes, the Do335 "Arrow" was a great plane, with propellers at both ends, but when you take cost and ease of manufacture in to consideration, and the fact that the Mozzie was developed a few years before the Arrow, the Mozzie is a great plane.  I think both the Arrow and later versions of the Mosquito/Hornet, could obtain speeds of over 500mph.  The He 177 was  quite good, especially when used with the V1 flying bombs (the Fiesler ones, can't remember the designation).  And don't forget the Amerika bomber...

[exatreide]

LMAO newt, those constant suplies saved Britan. If they wernt needed so badly why do you think we risked so many ships getting them to you? If we had not continued suply runs, You would be under the Hammer and Sickle right now, as the Allies would have no place to invade Europe.

Do you forget about a little thing called the ATLANTIC CHARTER?

Basicly, You needed supplies, aid ect. You were so desperet by this that you AGREED to help slowly give your colonies self rule and independence, in response to despretly needed aid.

What about the Lend Lease Chater?

You Brits would have owed us a massive sum of money had not the US entered the war, we charged for every tank,aircraft,spare nut and bolt we sent over there. Britan was willing to do whatever it had to do for supplies to stay alive.

Remember that little fellow named Chamberlin? Your whole "Oh Hitler can have the studenland, Hitler can have osterreich, oh he can have Chech..." Policy?

Don't Forget either, that America was also saving British India by sucking away Japanease troops to the Islands of the Pacific. We were fighting a two front war, supplying The UK,Russia, and anyone that needed aid.

Listen, I'm not saying that the Axis would have won the war if it wasnt for America cause that is not true. However, Britan would have fallen fast and hard once Hitler had air superiority, air superiority he could not gain because of American supplies that kept the British war Machine going.

The Russians would have beat Germany, and all of Europe would be under the hammer and Sickle of Russian ocupation.

Good job on that whole *operation market garden* Plan to....

The reason we did not want to enter the war when Poland was invaded was simply because, well we didn't care at the time. Our econemy was still shakey, and we had one of the smallest militaries in the world at the time, we would not have been much help in 39, we had not industrialized at all.

[GhostHunter]

The Superfortress was good, but nothing compared to what the Germans had  (they had one four piston engined bomber in development, before the Russians destroyed the factory, that had a speed of over 450mph, and that's not to mention the jet and rocket ones), and the Russians arguably had a better bomber in the Tu-3

That's why Stalin tried to get the Superfortress from us when we were sending him supplies, and also why he got so irritated and desperate that he stole it - all because he had a better bomber all along.  ::)

[Caid Ivik]

Actually, those three B-29s, on which was later based Tupolev Tu-4, as well as every Tupolev's plane but Tu-160 (which could be based on Rockwell B-1), landed there accidentally  ;D  To cease this flaming of poor Russians, they had a functional type of strategic bomber in Petljakov Pe-8, which had in fact five engines (four for propulsion, one for coolers...). They even used it for few attacks on Berlin, however not with results comparable to their allies. Before the war, Russia was known for large planes (like ie Ilja Muromec or ANT-20), they even exported many Tupolev SB-2 bombers, faster than any fighter but Bf 109 in its time, throughout whole Europe in 1930s.

[Dunenewt]

LMAO newt, those constant suplies saved Britan. If they wernt needed so badly why do you think we risked so many ships getting them to you? If we had not continued suply runs, You would be under the Hammer and Sickle right now, as the Allies would have no place to invade Europe.

First the Nazis now the Soviets. I like the way you keep your argument against me the same all the way through *rolls eyes*.

Do you forget about a little thing called the ATLANTIC CHARTER?

Basicly, You needed supplies, aid ect. You were so desperet by this that you AGREED to help slowly give your colonies self rule and independence, in response to despretly needed aid.

No, our decolonisation was nothing to do with that.

What about the Lend Lease Chater?

You Brits would have owed us a massive sum of money had not the US entered the war, we charged for every tank,aircraft,spare nut and bolt we sent over there. Britan was willing to do whatever it had to do for supplies to stay alive.

What do you want? A medal?  Your country was doing it because it was the right thing to do, not because they wanted money.

Remember that little fellow named Chamberlin? Your whole "Oh Hitler can have the studenland, Hitler can have osterreich, oh he can have Chech..." Policy?

Please, please, please, buy a history book and a dictionary, then rewrite this part. 

Und wenn du auf Deutsch schreiben m

[Dunenewt]

That's why Stalin tried to get the Superfortress from us when we were sending him supplies, and also why he got so irritated and desperate that he stole it - all because he had a better bomber all along. ::)

Good point, although the Caid did mention the bomber I was thinking of, as it had a phenomenal range.  It would be interesting to see what kind of impact the B-36 "Peacemaker" would have had.

[GhostHunter]

Writing Austria in German wont make you any cleverer, and it wont trick me.  Oh, and by the way Hitler was Austrian ;) .From what you said, they were fighting a war on more than two fronts...and they did a good job of it.  But do you honestly think that India would have been taken over by Japan?  I think the Indians might have had something to say about that one!

Yes, the same thing all of continental Europe had to say to the Nazis, with the same exact effect.

He never gained air superiority.  Heard of the Battle Of Britain?  American aid had little effect on the Battle Of Britain.

Umm...See, when your production facilities are being bombed...and we're sending you the supplies to BUILD the planes, along with the PLANES themselves, and weapons to shoot at the ENEMY planes...I think that might be considered a large, large part in your survival of Battle of Britain. That and the fact Hitler was an idiot and switched over to bombing London, otherwise if he kept at your airfields you were gone.

I doubt it, especially with Italy, Spain and France.  Oh, and Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, and not forgetting Ireland and us.

LMAO. Oh yes, those battle worn and devastated countries would have been able to fend off an army that beat the Nazis who took them over originally, and had a number scale of 10/20-1, plus better tanks and more aggression. Right.

You would have been some help though, but no, you were too busy isolating yourself.  There are too many people in America who think the USA should only look out for itself, who unfortunately, puts the other, better Americans in the shadows.

Oh, I'm dearly sorry that we, like many, many, many cases with other countries, didn't want to lose thousands of men and dedicate ourselves to a war which wasn't immediatly affecting us. Don't even reply to that Newt, it's human nature, and what so many countries have done in the past, including yours, that it's utterly pointless to use it against America in WWII.

[Dunenewt]

Yes, the same thing all of continental Europe had to say to the Nazis, with the same exact effect.

Except India is a very large country with unique terrains, and a lot more people, and Japan was inferior to Germany.

Umm...See, when your production facilities are being bombed...and we're sending you the supplies to BUILD the planes, along with the PLANES themselves, and weapons to shoot at the ENEMY planes...I think that might be considered a large, large part in your survival of Battle of Britain. That and the fact Hitler was an idiot and switched over to bombing London, otherwise if he kept at your airfields you were gone.

You hadn't sent us that many weapons by that point!

LMAO. Oh yes, those battle worn and devastated countries would have been able to fend off an army that beat the Nazis who took them over originally, and had a number scale of 10/20-1, plus better tanks and more aggression. Right.

Oh yes, Sweden and Switzerland, those war torn countries...

And anyway, if Russia overran Germany, all the German forces in France/Italy would have returned to Germany, therefore France would have been free, and able to fight/negiotiate, and Italy would be a tough nut to crack in their own backyard, as for the Spanish, they'd be in little trouble unless Stalin conquered France, which would be unlikely.  However if it did happen there would be heavy retribution against Franco after he defeated the Soviet supported Communists in the Civil War.

Norway...they'd be fine!  Just look how much force it took the Soviets to do some damage to Finland!  And Britain would have little to fear from the Soviets. 

Besides, do you really think that the Soviets would have enough manpower?

Oh, I'm dearly sorry that we, like many, many, many cases with other countries, didn't want to lose thousands of men and dedicate ourselves to a war which wasn't immediatly affecting us. Don't even reply to that Newt, it's human nature, and what so many countries have done in the past, including yours, that it's utterly pointless to use it against America in WWII.

Not really, considering Hitler offered us peace, which we refused to accept.  We could have had peace long before the war ended, but we fought on.  Was the invasion of Poland a threat to us? No.  So what makes you better?

[Caid Ivik]

Don't you think such arguments should be left for PRP?

[Dunenewt]

It's Historical. Besides, I'm hoping it'll become a more military based discussion, which is why I tried to get Ghosthunter to talk about the B-36.