The history of the Ordos

[Mahdi]

And what I was doing, as Jason said, was embellishing the little they gave us and fitting it into the Duneiverse. I never said it was The complete and absolute truth behind the history of the Ordos, I said:

"I never said that the above was cannon, hell I made it up myself as a possible history of them just to show that it is possible that they could exist in that universe. As far as I can see it is the most likley history of the Ordos if someone was going to make one up for westwood"

[Mahdi]

And I am sorry if all you were saying is that based on the information given by ww Ordos does not fit the definition of a great House, then I agree with you. Thats one of the reasons i changed it. This is the extended version of the (unofficial) history I wrote. I beilive it deals with the issues you raised and explains a bit more about the stuff in my original post. (remember, once again this is not the absolute truth behind the Ordos, just a possibility):

Originally a wealthy family they rose from a small buisness to a house minor to a House Major where they became a major economic powerhouse. During a daring asasination attempt, there entire family line was murdered and fearing the disolution of the House there closest advisors formed a coalition government in order to give the illusion of stability to the Emperor. Since no one was more powerfull than any other they amended there House charter so that the chairman had no more power than any other member of the Board. (Because they never were granted a royal title they ran along the lines of a buisness). After an intensive investigation by the Emperor, they were permitted to continue as a House. When the original Chariman died and another took the position of Chairman he was in fact taking the position of leader of the fief but because of the amendments made by the members of the board it was nothing more than a figurehead position and held no more power than any other board member. And since the board members are the richest members of House Ordos than when they die and pass there wealth down to there children, there children become the wealthiest members of the House and inherit there parents position so the board members are heridatory, including the chairman, which makes his family technically the ruiling family of Ordos even though they have no extraordinary power. The Emperor named the Chairmans family rulers of the Ordos fief beleiving that they and they alone controlled the House because of the show the others presented. Therefore they have a "Ruiling Family" in name if not in actualiity. This was one of the "illusions of stability" used to trick the Emperor into letting them continue as House Ordos. In order to prevent more assasinations, no one ever re-took the name Ordos or changed the name of the House to its new "Rulers" and the coalition government settled on a new set of rules regarding there House which made assasination of an equal a useless enterprise.

Rules of Assasination pertaning to board members ofHouse Ordos:

1) Each board position is heridatory, therefore the assasination of another member will not allow any other to gain his seat.

2) Each member of the Board has a "secret will" which, once written, is given to Guild agents to be placed in a safety deposit box. If a member of the Board dies with no hiers, or if his hiers are also dead, the will will be opened and read by the Guild. They will then announce who was named in the will as the hier to the deceased's seat. This insures that n one but the board member knows who his replacment will be, which prevents there corruption by other board members and also prevents the "outside family" hier from assasinating his benefactor. The will also includes 2nd, 3rd, and 4rth choices in case someone in the will has died. Guild neutrality insures the accuracy of the will.

3) The families of Board members will never meet the other families of board members or other board members until the time comes for them to sit on the board. This prevents corruption by other members of the board.

[garth]

I doubt Westwood will do anything about this problem, they've been so "lenient" in their application of Dune to video game they are ignoring the very principles of combat set in the Dune universe among other things.....

[Edric O]

Shaddam, you are a novel-centered Westwood-hater. And Ordos-hater, for that matter. I'll never understand you... What's wrong with Mahdi's story? I LOVE it, not to mention it follows the novels! Herbert didn't set a limit for how many Houses Major there are!

[garth]

Nothing is wrong with Mahdi's story: but the fact remains that until your precious WW adds more background to the Ordos it does not fit Frank Herbert's definition of "Great House".

When WW defiles Dune you can expect me to be upset.

Ordos are not legitimate Frank Herbert Dune material.

[Edric O]

You defile everything I stand for (or mostly), so you can expect me to be very "upset" as well.

I think that not even your precious Frank Herbert would have been more hardcore than you. And yes, I also think WW really should add more background on the Ordos. But just because they weren't mentioned in the original novels, that doesn't mean they don't exist.

[garth]

House Ordos does not exist IF its existence contradicts a previously stated fact from the Book.

Thats precisely the same issue with tanks.

[Gobalopper]

Edric what do you have against Frank Herbert? Without him there is no Dune and without Dune there wouldn't be a Dune II which means no Ordos...

The Ordos are not mentioned in the books but they are mentioned in the DE. Many people consider the DE to be "canon" of sorts so you can consider the Ordos existing from that. But the Ordos that Westwood created are not the same Ordos that are mentioned in the DE.

[garth]

Does the DE actually say anything about them other than listing them as a Great House?

[Edric O]

A few months ago, I had nothing against Frank Herbert. But when Shaddam started acting like he owns A2k and started deciding what's in and what's out, depending on the novels, I got more and more angry against the novels.

Nothing in the books contradicts the existance of the Ordos. Sure there are no tanks and never could be any in an accurate Duniverse. ;) But if you try to make a game based on an accurate Duniverse, it better not be a RTS. :(

[gil]

And the discussion drags on and on ... :)

Ok, first of all:

I do believe there is an House Ordos. I don't how, I don't know why, but I think there is or at least there's a very big chance there is one (around the 99%'s :) ). So we can pretty much lay concrete over the Ordos existance.

Just one thing - I really don't think they would be a House Major. House Minor is more like it ... even in your tale you say their inner structure was ripped appart (assassination), it takes many years (as in a few generations) to recover from such a blow.

Now on to wonderland: The House Major title ...

And even if they bribed their way into a House Major, do you think they would still be influential? I mean, the great Harks with all their wealth would need sixty years of *Spice* harvesting to pay for the Guild transportation and the Emperor's cumplicity (not that he demanded money, but there were a few Sardaukar legions to be transported and the Emperor wouldn't want to pick up the tab ... ).

They'd be a Great House in title ... kinda like a duke in a democracy. :)

And don't even tell me that they were more rich than the two Houses (The Richese and Harks) that mined Spice on Arrakis for so long!

Do you know the price of a decagram of that stuff? 620,000 Solaris! (it's not like I know the interchange value for Solaris to American dollars, but a figure with so many zeros must mean something :).)

And Houses with the caliber to invade Dune on their own would certainly be mentioned by Frankie, wouldn't they? It's not like every Great House has the means to invade a planet and take on the owners of the three greatest military structures in the know Universe (Fremen and Atrs; Sardaukar; Hark legions).

Second:

I think the Ordos should even be in A2k as one of the factions you obliterate / assimilate as a ruler of the three Great Houses. If you where Atreides or Corrino, then you'd have to blow them into orbit, if you were Richese you could 'ally' with them.

Comment on this, plz.

Third:

Now, I didn't write my fingers off (around 20 pages of text) in the private forum for you to tell me that there aren't armoured vehicles on Dune did I? :)

I proved by A + B = C that there where such combat vehicles.

Yes, for you all out there - after exhaustive talks I (with a little help from other parties) proved that there were armed, armoured vehicles on the first Dune book. Even tough they wouldn't be considered HBT's , they could certainly pass for MBT's (they had the size and the guns for it ... armour too I suppose, but that isn't a factor in a shield universe).

Why weren't they extensively used? Explanation => shields.

Why were they used? Explained again => Mobility, troop transport into hazardous areas, unshielded targets would be cannon fodder (the Sardaukar tried them on the Fremen).

There is also that little thing about radiant energy that viabilizes large explosive guns like the ones found in tanks, remember ... ? Frankie must have forgotten about that. Hehe ...

And I also explained why tracks would be better than suspensor drives for such vehicles. Go check ...

Fourth:

Shaddam never acted like he owned A2k. He always shares ideas before deciding them, and if they are either okeyed or tought good byt the relevant members (story ideas by the guys doing the story, graphics ideas by the guys making the graphics, etc ... ) then he'd 'spread the word' so to speak.

And don't even bring the Inquisition thingy here Edric - it was a joke (for the twentieth time).

I hope this settles it (unlikely everyone will agree with me, but it was worth a 'pacifying shot'). :)

[garth]

Thanks for the kind words Thufir :)

Even though there's still no evidence from Dune or Children of Dune, or any other Dune Book for that matter, that says there was a moderately armored tracked vehicle with cannon and rotating turret used (who in their right mind would use cannons in that day and age....) and with Daniel P. Duffy's article on warfare in the Duniverse supporting my views the time has passed and this issue has been RESOLVED SUFFICIENTLY for both parties.

The chances are staggering in favor of a family named "Ordos", it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that a million worlds with roughly 7,8, or even 9 billion people on them will have millions of family names(technically speaking Houses Minor). The question at hand is whether they fit the definition of Great House, and anyone can make up a song, dance, and story to explain this but the fact is there simply isn't enough evidence given from WW to fill this void.

The forms must be obeyed.....

[Edric O]

Just what does "resolved sufficiently" mean? Are tanks in or out? In other words, should I continue the fight or not?

Thanks for the "pacifying shot" Thuffir! ;)

Who knows, there might be a family named "Ordos" even on Earth today. :D I like the fact that the Ordos will be present in A2k, but please don't get them obliterated :) Just defeated is enough.

[garth]

"The game will now take place between Dune Messiah and Children of Dune but will still feature the same three Houses Atreides, Corrino, and Richese. We have also decided to limit the number of "tanks" that are in the game in order to stay closer to the novels. We will still have artillery type units and lightly armoured ground vehicles but don't expect anything like the Devastator from past Dune games. This was a tough decision and since some in the team were against it we may have an option were you can "turn on" tanks but that is still up in the air at this point." ~ Gobalopper

[garth]

This explains the concept of "lightly armored ground vehicles":

"Transport by shielded ground cars is fairly common outside of the worm zone. The ground cars utilize suspensor drive and are equipped with secondary missile weapons. They resemble a cross between a modern Humvee and Luke Skywalker's land speeder. Able to carry a squad of soldiers over all but the most difficult terrain, they are the "armored" units mentioned by Duke Leto. However, they are troop transports, not armored fighting vehicles. The only real "tank" in the Dune universe is a Fremen worm."

~Article 7, Section 1 "Dune Warfare"

And now to something different, my argument for inclusion of suspensor borne troops in A2k:

"Suspensor borne infantry are the alpine troops of the Dune universe. Buoyed by belt suspensors, this type of infantry can quickly traverse even the roughest terrain. The use of suspensors appears to be one of the few tactical advantages enjoyed by the Harkonnens and Sarduakar over their Fremen enemies."

~Article 7, Section 2 "Dune Warfare"

[Edric O]

I still expect a cross between a heavy ground car and a light artillery (sort-of a tank). But I WILL NOT give up the fight. Why don't you make tanks multiplayer-only? (assuming you will include MP)

The best thing to do now is to make a poll about the tanks in A2k. Let the community decide!

[Gobalopper]

There probably won't be multiplayer unless we find someone who has experience in that field. The game will be modifiable so if you want to have a game with tanks you will be able to edit it yourself.

Since this is in the Emperor forum, try to move it over to the Arrakis boards if you want to carry it on.

[Edric O]

Ok, I'll make a "Tanks" thread over there. But let's get back to the original subject of this thread. Mahdi's History of the Ordos seems to fit well with everything. Both the Dune games and the novels. The Ordos could be a very rich and powerful Great House, but a long time BEFORE the first Dune novel.

[ordos45]

Good point thufir. 100 more posts and I'll be an Emperor

[ordos45]

Good Point Gobalopper. All praise Frank