Emperor Dune - DOA

[jack9]

Homeworld was acclaimed, but not big in the sales department. Yes the sales were on target regarding their expectations, but the numbers were small in comparison to...well any other game, including Dune2000

[jack9]

I'm a BIG fan of Dune and Dune games in general. Dune Emperor is obviously (like most 3D strategy games) going to fall flat on its face. The graphics are silly at best and I have serious misgivings about the playability from what I've seen and heard. At first, I didnt even bother reading about Emperor Dune because of the way people and game makers and TV have seriously treated the story. It seemed like the pitfalls of many other liscences (like say...Rebellion, Quake Xmen, etc) would rightly pass Dune by. In short, I had GREAT faith in the gaming industry to continue to create quality games for the Dune universe. What do I find when I look at Emperor in more depth? Tragic. I am sad to see a hyped-up Dune game such an imminent failure. They should cut their losses and scrap it. Sure it may sell ok for the first month or two but I guarantee it will suffer the same fate as Vampire and Metal Fatigue. Very short lived popularity and severely disappointing sales. Not to be a troll, but this is my opinion and I've been around since before there were modems so I consider it worth mentioning. I cant be the _only_ one who has misgivings.

[Gobalopper]

Just curious but what do you think about previous Dune games, specifically those by Westwood?

[jack9]

I think Westwood is way good. I can still remember renting the Genesis Dune2 for days so that I could beat it will all 3 factions. I bought Dune2k the first day it came out. I think it's sad that the programmers had to call further Dune games C&C. It has been awhile since kids have been exposed to Dune until the SciFi miniseries hype. I think Westwood games vary from ok to good. Blade Runner, C&C, ok...monopoly too ^^ are all favorites of mine. I have nothing against Westwood or Dune games, but Emperor is DOA.

[Gobalopper]

Ok so I guess your big dislike about the game is that it's in 3D right? The current screenshots are a little misleading since I don't think many people will play the game at those levels. Maybe to get in close and see the action when the mission is almost over. Here is something Mike from Westwood told us about the angle he plays at:

It's different than Dune 2K, it feels much higher. The zoomed out viewpoint is almost top down, literally. Being 3D, you see the tops of the vehicles and the roofs of the structures. It's tough to tell what anything is from that altitude, but it's sure easy to select large groups of units and see a large portion of the battlefield. In a screenshot, I'm afraid it would only serve to give you an idea of how far out you could zoom, not any indication of detail down below. I'll see what I can do though.

I guess how you view the graphics is a personal thing but I think you are of the minority this time :)

[harkahn]

Hello everyone:

I'm afraid I would have to agree with both of you on this one. First of all I do find most of the new 3D rts's lacking in most ways. Because of the 3D graphics and their requirements, as far as programming time and computer cycles go, most of the other areas suffer neglect thus resulting in a rather all hype and no substance game. This is why I have liked Westwood, their rts games, for the most part, have stayed out of 3D in favor of other elements. However, starting with Tiberian Sun, I think we saw the beginning of a degradation. Nothing against Tiberian Sun but I found the level structure and depth rather lacking, especially in comparison to Red Alert... it seemed to have major gaps and though is still a quality game, it was not what I would call Westwood quality. Even with Dune 2000 there were problems. If their were not, I dont think there would have been the demand for editors like TibEdit. Not to plug my own Mod, but the only reason I started Epic Dune was for the sole purpose of making Dune 2000 what I thought it should have been out of the box. However, to give Gobalopper credit, I have to say I think we should at least give Emperor a chance and not pre-critique it, and personally, I always have hope their will be a Dune based strategy game, real-time or otherwise, that will not need fan-based tweaking in order to get right. One more thing, I would like to mention a game i recieved as a gift this Christmas from a friend who knew I liked strategy games. It is called Imperium Galactica 2 and it pulls off the best balance of graphics and strategic gameplay I have seen in a very long time. Now, if Emperor does as well in their balancing and with the extra couple of years technology Westwood has had access to, I think that Emperor will have a better chance at being a positive 3D rts than what we have seen in that particualr genre so far. Well thats all I had to say. Goodnight and I hope that everyone sleeps well.

- Jason.

[montego]

Another factor in the "editing" is simply this - When you've played a game hundreds of times, 36 maps isn't enough - And everyone has their idea of the perfect tweak. People don't just edit a game because it's insufficient, but often times because it's good enough to merit the time and effort. All these guys wouldn't be writing this stuff if Dune 2000 was so inadequate.

On the 3d issue, Vampire sucked. I use that as a simple example. Yeah, that's my opinion, but then maybe to me the Westwood RTS interface is like an old pair of shoes - maybe not the shiniest, but I like the feel, and it would seem that a lot of other people think so too. I got Red Alert 2 for Christmas, and overall, I think it's really a great game. Not without flaws mind you, but really fun to play. For me, cool 3-d graphics are great, as long as their being there isn't a detriment to gameplay.

To be fair, once you've seen one WW RTS, you've seen them all, but it's a hook that brings you back, and the bait that attracts one of us to the hook may not be the same as what attracts the next guy to it.

It's hard for any game to be a monster hit any more, especially since the development time is so long and costly,as compared to the profit margin... *BUT*, had Westwood not licensed Dune, it could have as easily been another crappy game by a mediocre developer, and never seen the light beyond the $10 rack in Best Buy... Point? It could be far worse. Maybe E:BFD will suck, maybe it won't... But i'll buy it, and if it's anything like RA2 (in the improved interfacing), i'll be a happy camper.

[harkahn]

First off, Captain, when I am talking about the lacking of 3D rts games, im not talking about the voxel based games westwood has been making. Im talking about games like Dark Reign 2, and though I liked DR2, i did find it, like most of the others in that genre, lacking. Sure 3D graphics are nice, but what im saying is they are not nice when the gameplay is sacrificed, and im sorry, but i think given the amount of time spent on it, and the overbudgeting, TS should have been a better game, period. Of course that is not an old opinion. Anyway, overall I of course like Dune 2000, and of course not all people take the same approach to modding, yourself as compared to me, obviously very different styles, and personally I liked your mod, just for differing reasons than mine, all I am saying is that when you have a perfect game there are usually not a ton of value editors, now im not talking map editors as that is simply a matter of replay value. The fact is there are a lot of top-selling, top-ranking games, in all genres right now that do not have such editors or even people direct modding, even though such a thing is most obviously possible, and that is not a coincidence. That is all I was saying. It is 1am here, and it has been a very long day so I hope this cleared some of what I was saying up, Captain. I hope everyone has a goodnight. Farewell.

- Jason.

[montego]

Your point is well taken. :)

[benfurness]

I have to agree with both sides to the argument of e-bfd, for the simple reason that for a long time the rts arena has become stagnant over the past few years with not much inovation to make any one game stand out since the c+c games.

Some companies have gone in with the 3-d approach which in most cases crapped all over the game play, others have stuck with 2-d as in ra2 and have had people whine that it's not enough.

Sadly no matter what anyone does it will never be enough because everyone has their own prefferences, which is a good thing without it their would be not mod files ie, aftermath ect.

At the same time I don't think e-bfd will fail because they really are trying a new direction with the sub-houses and the way they will be used in the game, although how far it will go we won't find out untill we acually play the game.

Graphics wise I don't have a problem with the way it looks but at what cost to machine spec??

That is some thing that I always give credit to console programmers over pc ones because console programmers don't have the luxury of extra memory or faster prossesors they have to use what the have got and thats it. On the pc side with so many companies it seems like they just put as much stuff in the game so that most of the time the game requires a monster pc when in reallity it could of been done on a lower spec machine if anyone had benn bothered to find out how.

Anyhow I'm buying e-bfd when it's released and if it sucks then it sucks but I'm still giving it a chance and not pronouncing it doa.

With the multiplay area of dune I think a combination of 36 maps, 3 main houses, X amount of sub-houses and a level/game editor everything could live up to what most people want as long as the gameplay is solid.

[harkahn]

Amen, brother Dreamer, I just hope you are right. :)

- Jason.

[jack9]

On a related note, the more I hear about Warcraft III, the worse I like it. Oh hell, I've never heard anything about Warcraft III that I have liked at all. Perhaps the similarity between the screenshots of WC3 and E-BFD can be said to be comparable.

[garth]

I agree with dreamer.

[jack9]

Oh yes, let's not forget another huge feature that westwood continues to ignore - ip_masqing. I have a cable modem with 8 computers connected. If I were at work or some other arbitrary place with multiple comps thru 1 IP, we cannot play. Period. Some games on WON.net suffer from this as well (*cough* Vampire *cough*), which contributes to the unpopularity of these specific westwood games. Blizzard has always supported masq'd ip's which is another reason it continues to be popular. You cant run C&C from the average korean computer/coffee shop because of this.

[montego]

Shew... I knew there was a reason to be happy that i'm not in Korea...

Korea ... Where "Who let the dogs out" takes a sudden urgency... lol

[Edric O]

How can you predict how a game will be when you really know NOTHING about it???

I wonder why 3D generates such prejudice... some people say all 3D games completelly suck, others say 3D is everything and just stare at the graphics.

Belive me, the move to 3D was very calculated by Westwood. They waited for other companies to "brake their neck" and only then they moved to 3D, having learned from the others' failures. And still, RA2 is living proof that 2D Westwood games are alive and kicking.

[jack9]

It's easy to predict how a game will be. I've played a LOT of games and waited to play a LOT of games, through year and development stages. The intricacies of the game are by and far less important than the fundamentals that we find out at the get go. What it looks like. What the control is like. What archetypes (spin, stereotype, choose your synonym...) the units and models are based on. What colors for gods sake. Who the players are. How many can play. The hardware requirements. The third party involvement. RA2 (which I have) EXACTLY illustrates my point. The specifics of the game...balance and actual play...do not affect it's market value as much as the fact that it is basically C&C. Looks like RA2 units are bigger too...but I dont play C&C so I wouldnt know.

Every company who has released a 3D game thinks they have calculated and schemed long enough to put out a great if not revolutionary title. They have been wrong insofar as we are talking about 3D RTS. Homeworld, TA, TA:K, Sacrifice, Citizen Kabuto, etc. These are all flash in the pans that of course garnered a small hardcore fanbase (you inevitably end up with a couple hundred ppl who LOVE most any game, with the sheer number of people that the computer market caters to), but dont have the serious numbers that are required. TA (i keep thinking tits and ass, i mean Total Annihilation) _still_ has a larger fanbase than the newbies Sacrifice/Kabuto. When looking at a rendered RTS game, ppl instantly feel uneasy because of something having to do with perspective (no, I dont know specifically why or I would be a millionaire). When you solve that visual problem, you will win the marketshare. Emperor has not solved the unmentionable problem, only rearranged the basic 3D RTS formula. Business as usual.

[Edric O]

The almighty Jack knows all. :D How can you even say you know how the camera will be controlled in Emperor? And as a matter of fact, who cares about the stupid camera? For me, it has no importance at all. I'll only move it when I need to. The point is that 3D really doesn't matter for a game, except as a marketing scheme. 3D or not 3D, I couldn't care less.

Btw, your "intuition" failed you big time with Homeworld. That game was a big hit.

[Edric O]

And also, your signature is absolutelly right. You are VERY often wrong... but never in doubt.

[ordos45]

You are always right Emperor. :)

[ordos45]

Good point Jack9.

[Edric O]

Homeworld was excellent in Single-player, but most RTS gamers are addicted to Multi... which wasn't that great in HW. I'm really sorry to see such a great storyline not being appreciated.

Ordos45, please stop your "Emperor-worship" towards me. Not that I don't like it :D , but it isn't in the nature of the Ordos. Btw, my complete title is "Edric O, Emperor of the Ordos and all of the Known Universe". :)

[ordos45]

Yes Edric O. I'm just a big suck up...you know I was staying close to assassinate you oh wait... that's the honored matres

[Edric O]

"Sucking up" is a good excuse to make more posts for yourself, isn't it? ;)

[montego]

Sorry guys, but reading this shit puts me in BYA mode ...

Ordos45, 2,000,000 posts don't mean a damned thing unless you have something to say. When you constantly post shit that has nothing to do with the conversation, it tends to make seeing one of your posts fodder for the scroll-down key. If you say something cognizant and pertinent to the conversation, people listen. (scrolling down) ...

Jack9, Homeworld not a hit? Well, while it certainly may not be a "DOOM" in sales, but it's a game-of-the-year title, and merited an expansion pack (Catacalysm) - These companies don't do this for games that just "meet expectations", but for games that kick ass in sales, so I take your comments as nothing more than a gratuitous assertion, which can always be just as gratuitously disasserted.

The camera perspective, in my opinion is a great idea, since we all have individual tastes and preferences.