Fatalism in the Modern World

[TMA_1]

This kinda touches on the spiritual, but I will try and avoid it as best as I can, which is going to be kinda hard.

Sodom and Gomorrah is a great example. When a city state, or a specific culture or people fall into a nihilistic web of lust and degredation, it deserves a reckoning. Now you can believe in the spiritual or not to udnerstand this. Any civilization that succumbs to this kind of thing will always crumble and fall.

In Gibbon's Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, this is aparent. Before the Visigoths, Ostrogoths, and others fully destroyed the western roman empire, it talks about the cultural decay of Roman culture. It was largely a cultural and spiritual curruption that came on by the ruin of the identity of the people. The Patritian class largely dissolved, and the government became hollow. The old virtues that held the common man together was gone, and the result was what would become basically the dark ages in western europe. It is very complex, but I obviously had to shorten it.

See, the horrible thing now days is that I can see this growth in a loss of cultural identity, the lack of culture in many ways, and the moral and spiritual decay of our culture in the majority of the western world. It isnt just me that says this, and it isnt just the fringe ultra right wingers who belive this either. Many people can see this and so it just scares me.

The reason why is You can see the progression of this danger. WIth Sodom and Gomorrah, they were isolated city-states. They didnt grow large enough to affect a large area with their decadence. It was only in one isolated area.

But then with my example of the roman empire, we are dealing with what I just said, a large empire that spanned a chunk of europe and a bit of the aegean.

But now, now its different.

Because of the advent of globalism, economically and socially, we are dealing with nihilism and curruption on a larger scale. Because the world is truly becoming a smaller place because of the advent of technology and quick travel and communication, a fall of a civilization would no longer be in an isolated and small geographic location, or even at the hub of a substansial empire, but apart of the western world in general.

I dont care if people think I sound like one of those doom's-day wierdos, because i know I am not. I jsut know history well enough that this kind of cultural, ethical, social, and moral curruption can destroy a people or civilization, be it by our own hands or (in my own beliefs) by a super-natural agency. The scary thing is, is that we are dealing with this problem on a global perspective.

Things are getting worse, and that is aparent to anybody who wishes to open their eyes. But the fear comes form the fact that it would be ona

[Acriku]

I don't know why are against this happening. Did God not promise that He would never flood the Earth again? So all there is left to do if the end is near is the Rapture, in which case you will be sent to Heaven for eternity. You should be rejoicing!

[Dante]

Cultural rot? Lack of faith, ambiguous morality... this does not necessarily equate to degeneration. Even if it does, Europe did not end with the Romans. What's all the fuss?

[TMA_1]

one destruction would be by water, the other by fire. but anyways this wasent just about my ideas on what will happen spiritually to the world and to teh church.

This is also jsut plain obvious. When you are dealing with civilizations that are currupted, they will eventually fall. I mean if you know a lick about history, you would understand this. I even talked about it in detail, I was hoping that somebody would have respected this and tried to at least talk about it from a less sarcastic method.

I mean does anybody have anything constructive to say? It is obvious that this is dangerous, because instead of decadence crumbling in a small area, because decadence is spread through a global scale, than the fall will be all the greater.

and by the way acriku, since you brought out the personal feelings of how I feel, I will metnion this, that I do rejoice for salvation, but at hte same time I am really sad because of the immence destruction that will follow from it. This isnt a luaghing matter to me. (by the way, please dont respond to this specific message in the post I wrote directly to acriku, it is just directly addressing him. I dont want this thread I thought of to be ruined.)

[Caid Ivik]

German tribes attacked Rome not because of its cultural decadence; they started to move there because they saw it as an only way to take over roman wealth, which was growing perhaps until Goths looted it. Due to new population, not teached in roman ways, most parts of the Empire fell. However, there were still many self-dependent latifundia around Europe, acting like, to use a postmodern term, autonomous zones. On these latifundia were later based the so-called "barbarian states", which all were fascinated by their culture. Fall of Rome in 475 was not caused by decadence of Romans, but simply because german soldiers were not paid. They overran Romans demographically already century ago. What you call a "common man (of Empire)" could be in ie year 200 a guy from Italy who could write, but in 400 it was a german peasant.

Some say that a very similar situation is nowadays. Hordes of Turks and Chinese are changing the very character of old christian Europe. Nonsense. There are coming especially those educated, carriers of the culture. Refugees which come have no military power like barbarians, and as no cultural as well, they are assimilated in few generations. However, educated foreigners, these pose a threat (if we are to find one) for the tradition - as their tradition isn't always compatible with our one, like Netherlands and Austria are showing us. If our culture will turn to nihilism (like somewhere already did), it won't be a cataclysma like that of Rome, power will be taken by the foreign elite, no "barbarians".

Rule of imams, partially undermined by surviving autonomous zones, like wireless internet or nations, which already closed themselves. It's not that bad, just I am sure nobody of you here would get used to it  ;D

[TMA_1]

I didnt say "europe ended". I said that the western roman civilization collapsed, with only remnants kept by the rivaling european tribes and the roman catholic church.

I am saying that this could lead to another collapse, but instead of a single civilization, that it could span across much more.

[TMA_1]

ugh. lol caid...

I didnt say that the european tribes destroyed rome because of their decadence, read what I said! lol

[Caid Ivik]

Their only weakness was their low natality. Culturally, the native Romans they were on an even higher level than Romans in times of ie Augustus! It was an elite culture, just nobody was left to maintain it, as Germans could not understand what they were (truly) given in that time.

[TMA_1]

the patritian class didnt really even exist anymore because of the overextensive use of exposure to usually female babies. This lead to too much adoption, and a dissolution of the class. The lower classes became too distant from the higher classes and yes, the culture of the western roman empire was FAR FAR lacking to the roman empire before the State Church of rome was instituationalized. I tend to agree with the angles that are shown in Gibbon's Decline and Fall. THe Catholic church was probably one of the greatest parts of the downfall of the western roman empire. I am not trying to attack the catholic church at all, because the church of that time was kinda a different animal to the Catholic church we know now.

[Caid Ivik]

Adoption has no negative effect, as it means assimilation of the person - what means spreading the cultural memes in the strongest way. To be sure, they were mostly christians who held this culture in its last hours and we can only thank them that they have saved something of it.

[Davidu]

All civilisations and cultures are organic, and live and die as any individual. Mybe our time has come. Death is not the end. Is OUR end, but it is the birth of a myriad of posibilites.

Remember Isaac Asimov. The Fundation. The momentum of a civilisation makes it advance, and also, it makes it die. A civilisation born in an historical "explosion" will end abruptly.

A civilisation that created itsself ovar a huge period of time, will live much longer.

The life-span of a civilisation is defined by how much traditional environement they have and by the amount of respect they pay to their traditions.

The western culture has become unitarian dispite the diferences of language. And ALL reject their traditions. They imitate each others and wish to be "modern", they wish to advance. They are not aware of the importance of diversity. You cannot build in the abyss. A culture needs a fundation to rely upon.

When we reject our traditions we reject our rockbed. We cannot build a damn hut on thin air, but a piramid.

If our time has come I will not fight. I'm curious what new ideas will come after the fall. What new cultures and what new people will emerge on the stage of history.

[Dante]

This is also jsut plain obvious. When you are dealing with civilizations that are currupted, they will eventually fall. I mean if you know a lick about history, you would understand this. I even talked about it in detail, I was hoping that somebody would have respected this and tried to at least talk about it from a less sarcastic method.

I thought of it as more concise than sarcastic. Points expressed being 1) Is it really corrupted? and 2) Does it matter?

[Davidu]

Hey, we'll evntualy die. Our civilisation will eventually die. Our species will eventually die. The solar sistaem will eventually be destroyed.

So why bother? ::)

[Caid Ivik]

That's a slavonic reaction to the german thinking  ;D  But you are true. Why bother saving civilization, which rejects itself. Better allow next mixing of civilizations, altough that doesn't mean some memes won't remain sacred for me.

[VigilVirus]

We punish ourselves now. We don't need God to do it for us.