Nirvana: With the Lights Out

[Mahdi]

Principle that enhances the quality of music.

Look at the uproar over the recent lip syncing "scandals" by pop singers that any sane person would expect nothing else from.

[Acriku]

I get what you mean about the lip syncing, but that doesn't apply to every "pop" band. The thing is, if you ignore whatever principle you apply yourself to, you can enjoy any music.

[Mahdi]

I get what you mean about the lip syncing, but that doesn't apply to every "pop" band.

Yes, it does.  The songs are meangingless money grabs made by people sitting around a conference table asking "So, what kind of song can we make that will sell fifteen million CD's?  And what pretty face can we get to sing it (of course we'll use machiens to digitally enhance the voice, so it doesn't matter if they ahve any talent or not)."

[Acriku]

I've seen Linkin Park sing on television live in concert, and they sounded great. It actually made me enjoy the cd's even more. Live with your principle Mahdi, but I'm not going to have that keep me from enjoying the music.

[Mahdi]

Far be it for me to stop you from enjoying something you like, just don't go around bad-mouthing all of us who actually like meaningfull songs written and performed by bands with something to say and for some other reason than making a fortune. 

Especially in a Nirvana thread.  The whole point of Nirvana was anti mass-produced pop!

[Acriku]

Far be it for me to stop you from enjoying something you like, just don't go around bad-mouthing all of us who actually like meaningfull songs written and performed by bands with something to say and for some other reason than making a fortune. 

The same "us" who call bands posers and bash them for the sole reason that they make more money than other bands? Please. Go listen to Tool's "Hooker with a Penis" about selling out, and think about what you just said.

[Mahdi]

The same "us" who call bands posers and bash them for the sole reason that they make more money than other bands? Please. Go listen to Tool's "Hooker with a Penis" about selling out, and think about what you just said.

No one bashed them for making money.  Just because you make money does not make you bad or a sell out.

Show me where somebody said that Acriku.

Go ahead, use that little quote icon so I can see just where that is.

I'm pretty sure the Chili Peppers have nice little bank accounts of there own.

I remember making a distinction between those who do it purely for money and those who do not, but other than that....

As for calling them posers, well they are.  Same as Britney Speares, Avril Lavigne, N'Sync, etc. just with a different sound.  Manufactured music made soley for the purpose of money.  You even recognized that, and said you didn't care 'cause you still liked there music.  Good for you.  I won't stop you.  You like what you like and that's just fine.  It doesn't hurt me one bit so I really do not care. 

As for them, if all they want to do is make money, then congrats to them for succeeding.  I have no doubt Timberlake knows his songs suck ass, and he just does not care.  I respect his success, even if I hate his music.

No one called them sell outs either.  If Bad Religion all of the sudden started endorsing Macdonalds, that would be selling out.  Just like the money thing, you are putting words in our mouths, claiming we said things we never said.  You're arguing with yourself and claiming we're bashing you.

Like DJ said, they're a corporate band with some good stuff for what they are.  But they are a corporate band that's about the money.  You admitted this and said you don't care, that music to you is all about the sound and nothing else.  I don't have a problem with you thinking that and no one else has attacked you or anyone else for thinking this, but what do you do?  Come in here all high and mighty, call us all arrogant and immature and saying that our desire for real meaningful music played by bands with desire for more than just money and fame is stupid and wrong and we should all think like you.  And in a Nirvana thread no less.

And even after that no one said anything negative about you.

And yet you're still acting like we attacked you and claiming that we are saying things we arn't.

They only things we've posted you've agreed with.  Except you keep the arguement going claiming we said things we never did.  Whatever issues you have are coming from your own little head, not us.

[Acriku]

No one bashed them for making money.  Just because you make money does not make you bad or a sell out.

Show me where somebody said that Acriku.

Go ahead, use that little quote icon so I can see just where that is.

I can play who-said-what with you, too, like where did I call anyone arrogant? Regardless, the meaning behind Hooker with a Penis as I saw it when I first heard it is that "the boy in Vans" and everyone else are labeling bands that got records and make tons of money as sell-outs, even though they're sell-outs, too, by buying it all. Everyone sells out to some extent, but they shouldn't be judgemental against bands for doing the same thing. That's what I got from the song. Now, in relevance to this thread, I was wondering why people are being judgemental by calling bands like Linkin Park posers, corporate-bands, etc. Not to mention that saying their sole reason for making music is to make money is presumptuous. Just like the lyric from Hooker with a Penis says : "All you know about me is what I've sold you..." You don't know them personally, and neither do I, so let's not make up reasons for them.

EDIT: I realize no one has said sell-out, but the point stands: people are being judgemental when they call bands like Linkin Park "commercial-made corporate rock" or "posers" when they shouldn't be. I was wondering why they do that at all.

Also, you can tell from my first question : "Why do people..." that I was referring to other people that have said things like that in the past that I've seen, not necessarily in this forum. So yes, I do have some issues with people coming right out and saying things like "Linkin Park --> Posers(IMO)" and don't see a reason for doing that in the first place.

[Mahdi]

"I can play who-said-what with you, too, like where did I call anyone arrogant?"

"Get off your immature, poser-calling, "real"-oriented arse and just enjoy the music for what it is."

Sure seems to have implied it.  Oh, and by the way, good job of completly ignoring everything I said to you there with that one dismissive blanket statement.  Really.  I mean it.  Excellent work.  No one will notice at all.  Smoooooooooth.

"labeling bands that got records and make tons of money as sell-outs,"

Let's play another round of that fun who-said-what game again (not that we really need to, looks like I've already pretty much skunked you), but where was that said again?

"even though they're sell-outs, too, by buying it all."

Ok, so how exactly is someone a sell-out for believing that some one else sold out? 

And again, how does that have absolutely anything to do with this thread?  You're the only one who keeps bringing up stuff like "selling out" and "making more money than anybody else".

"Everyone sells out to some extent, but they shouldn't be judgemental against bands for doing the same thing."

Yeah, 'cause everything I've said about these bands is so judgmental, like:

"As for them, if all they want to do is make money, then congrats to them for succeeding.  I have no doubt Timberlake knows his songs suck ass, and he just does not care.  I respect his success, even if I hate his music."

"Now, in relevance to this thread, I was wondering why people are being judgemental by calling bands like Linkin Park posers, corporate-bands, etc"

Um, because they are?  An apple is an apple is an apple, Acriku, no matter how many times you paint it orange.  A band created by a corporation to look like a real hardcore rock band so the corporation will make money.  Just like Avril Lavaigne is created to look punk by a corporation in order to make that corporation more money.  And, seeing as this is a Nirvana thread, and the whole point of the Grunge movement Nirvana spearheaded was to get rid of such music, how could you not expect a mention of it in the thread?

Plus you, ya know, have already acknowledged this as the case multiple times in this thread, so why keep bringing it up?  Looks to me like you're jsut spoiling for a fight (your first post int his thread is another good indication of that) and refuse to admit that you've lost it.

("Quote from: Andrew on Today at 15:31:19

Did linkin park play at local bars and stuff before they were big? How long before they made it big? Did they make a CD that did not sell well before making an album that sold many?

If they were making that music before they were bought up (like any band) by a music company, then there is not much of a problem.

How is that relevant when all you have to do is listen to their music to determine if you should like them or not? Is it principle?"

"Ah, got ya. So would you say that this is a principle thing more than a quality-of-music thing?"

"I get what you mean about the lip syncing, but that doesn't apply to every "pop" band. The thing is, if you ignore whatever principle you apply yourself to, you can enjoy any music."

"I've seen Linkin Park sing on television live in concert, and they sounded great. It actually made me enjoy the cd's even more. Live with your principle Mahdi, but I'm not going to have that keep me from enjoying the music.")

"Not to mention that saying their sole reason for making music is to make money is presumptuous."

So, what, The Monkee's and O-Town were created out of a love of music and a desire to advance the art?

"You don't know them personally, and neither do I, so let's not make up reasons for them."

No need to make up reasons when the reasons are clear enough. 

An apple is an apple is an apple.

 

[Seal89999]

All of you bashing Linkin Park have no idea a good band is. You are all caught up in the hype that if you say you like Pearl Jam or some other older band that that somehow means you are somehow more musically enlightened and can determine what bands are "sell outs" and whats bands are not. Get your heads out of your ass....

Linkin Park's songs have gotten me through good and bad times....

And,

Wouldent every band be considered a "sell out" because they market products that have there band name on them and they sell there albums?

I have seen Linkin Park live and they are absolutely amazing. They are just as good/if not better live than on there albums. They all can play there own musical instruments and have alot of skill in doing so. Just because they arnt singing about getting drunk and kids that killed themselves dosent make them a "corporate rock band". You people know nothing....

The time a band has been around does not mean jack squat about anything.

Britney Spears and Ashlee Simpson that base there fame off there sex appeal and dont even write there own songs are obviously in it for the money but bands that love what they do and perform for the fans and actually have tallent.....they are what music is really about. So quit your bashing of Linkin Park because if you dont see that they are real....you obviously dont know much.

[Andrew]

Just to add in a fact, when a band or singer plays live, it is possible for machines/computers to make it sound better.

Although many smaller bands that are not big don't do that. That is why I love live concerts with smaller bands that don't have to make their music sound perfect when performing live. It is live. If someone expects/wants it to sound just like the CD, then they have a problem and should go listen to the CD.

I have nothing against Linkin Park, but I don't listen to them. Not because of whether they are manufactured or not, but because I don't like their music. I dislike most new music that gets played on the radio and tv 100 times a day. And mostly pop. ewww.

[gunner154]

Okay, so perhaps I was the one who started this argument. I will now say my piece.

Guys, I used to be a Linkin Park fan, crazy about them for like two years. I think they're plain bad after I moved towards much better stuff. Linkin Park are posers simply because they aren't really doing music. Even if they were, it's... I just can't see it as music. Would you call someone screaming at the top of his voice music?

"SHUT UP! SHUT UP! SHUT UP!" Seriously, I think Linkin Park is better off acting in some action movie. And what about the power chords they use oh-so excessively? And how they become filthy rich by putting in less effort than many other rock bands before them have? Having four power chords fill a chorus is not what I call musicmanship. I just started on a guitar, and I am confident that I can well play any Linkin Park song in a really short time, but I will definitely take ages to play a guitar solo on Whole Lotta Love, Stairway to Heaven, or All Along the Watchtower. Musicians in the past have put in lots of effort to really produce real music, to make their albums the best that they can be, and to give their fans an even better time live. Don't tell me Fred Durst whipping out a flamethrower (or whatever that thing is) in concert is music? Their live shows aren't much better than the album versions than, then why even bother to watch their shows? Stick to your computer-enhanced CDs then.

The rock bands of the past put in effort to make their live shows even better than the records (that is what musicmanship is all about). Solos are expanded, songs are improved, sound better, extended, when live. This is to make sure the fans are really pay it's worth and aren't wasting any money!

About songs being meaningful, I think Linkin Park have done nothing beyond writing about "SHUT UP!", "YOU'RE GONNA LISTEN TO ME LIKE IT OR NOT RIGHT NOW!!!" Maturity? I think we all need to think a little about this and whether they really deserve to be heard.

I think you're really better off listening to The Beatles and Bob Dylan if you want meaningful songs, rather than listening to some guy screaming his head off and then going to hospital because of throat infection.

I hate nu-metal, and I do not welcome flaming. If you wish to dismiss what I'm saying as utter nonsense and probably someone who wants to be better at babbling than Linkin Park or Limp Bizkit, good luck to you. I will not enforce my ideas on you. I just needed to say this. No hard feelings. I hate Linkin Park, not you. Cheers.

[Andrew]

Screaming can be meaninful. Like when Kurt Cobain screamed. That was meaningful and not just to sell records.

"Shut Up!" hehe. Another catchy song.

Don't forget Neil Young! He can play the guitar pretty good.

[gunner154]

Neil Young deserves respect. But Chester Bennington?  ???

[lost_child]

Neil Young deserves respect. But Chester Bennington?

[Andrew]

I like about 55 out of the 62 songs I have of Neil Young.

Cotez the killer is one that I like.

Stupid Girl is a good song. Don't hear it much.