GUNWOUNDS Posted July 15, 2004 Posted July 15, 2004 no problem wolfwiz.... but rookies argument falls apart when addressing a woman who HAS birthed a child... thats my point... his argument is totally worthless on a pro-lfe Woman who has birthed many children....SHE does know what its like to carry a child and birth one.... IN FACT.. the mother who has birthed a child KNOWS MORE about carrying a child than the little girl who never carried to full term and had it aborted.as rookie would say... "Badda bing badda boom."
Wolf Posted July 15, 2004 Posted July 15, 2004 Oh, I'm just pissed off at the both of you because no one has answered any of my questions. ;DThat, and let's not use... eyewitness testimony, as it were. If we needed to I'm sure we could all find people to come in here and say, "Oh man, I had an abortion and it was great," or, "Oh, I am so happy I never had an abortion." You see what I mean?
GUNWOUNDS Posted July 15, 2004 Posted July 15, 2004 Oh, I'm just pissed off at the both of you because no one has answered any of my questions.
Khan Posted July 15, 2004 Posted July 15, 2004 Can you prove that?I may be rich and could adopt the perfectly healthy baby she is about to murder.It would grow up and i would name him Bob
Wolf Posted July 15, 2004 Posted July 15, 2004 Abortion is murder if we assign the fetal <entity> the status of humanity. It is murder to kill another human being. If a fetus is, indeed, human, then would it not be murder to kill it?You see, I do not think that by saying the fetus depends on the mother for life that this makes the fetus non-human. People on life support are still human.I also do not think that by saying the fetus is incomplete that it is not human. People who lose limbs are still human.I do not think that by saying that the fetus is unconscious that it is not human. People who are in comas, asleep, or have lost parts of their brains are still human.I do not think that by saying that the fetus is not fully developed that it is not human. People who are teenagers and premature births are still considered human.I do not quite agree with the assignment of human-status at birth, because a baby born prematurely is considered human. If the fetal <entity> were born on X day, it would be virtually the same as it was the day before, and it will be virtually the same the day after. However, it was not human the day before, and it is now human the day after? Yet, a baby that is late, and is then aborted, would have been more suited to life, yet was deemed not human and killed. "Birth" can be a very ambiguous concept. What about Cesarians, premature births, or late births? What of stillbirths? Did the baby die, or was it never human in the first place?Therefore, it seems quite simple to assume that human fetal <entities> are, in fact, also human beings. Since it is murder to kill a human being, is it not also logical to assume that the destruction of these <entities> is also murder?
GUNWOUNDS Posted July 15, 2004 Posted July 15, 2004 Can YOU prove that? The truth is you COULD save the baby from nothingness and you COULD raise it nicely, and he COULD try to kill you in the night, and he COULD be an unproductive member of society, and you COULD regret ever having saved him.Coulds can go on forever, but if the mother kills the unborn, or even the born baby, we KNOW that nothing will come of it. Anyway, how did you get from abortion to murder? (Pretend there is a difference for a while)guess you never heard of innocent until proven guilty huh?
Wolf Posted July 15, 2004 Posted July 15, 2004 Abortions are the pre-emptive strike policy when applied to poor mothers? Funny. Ironically, those who agree with abortions are more likely to fervently hate the policy of pre-emptive strike.I once saw a cartoon with a Democrat screaming about how Republicans go to war, and a Republican screaming about how Democrats support abotion, and lastly, they both appeared in the same frame both shouting the word, "BARBARIAN" at each other.
GUNWOUNDS Posted July 15, 2004 Posted July 15, 2004 lol ya .. thats what it sounds like to me ... lets kill the poor ghetto mama babies as a pre-emptive strike against crime.
Khan Posted July 15, 2004 Posted July 15, 2004 guess you never heard of innocent until proven guilty huh?
Wolf Posted July 15, 2004 Posted July 15, 2004 Probably true, Khan. Yet, "innocent until proven guilty" doesn't mean innocent forever, it means innocent for now. You say "immoral war" as if there will never be WMDs found, and that Saddam should have remained in power in Iraq. Saddam Hussein has proven to be quite an immoral man. I hope you do not mean to say that he is innocent?
Khan Posted July 15, 2004 Posted July 15, 2004 I know, as soon as I hit post I knew I should have gone with illegal rather than immoral...
Wolf Posted July 15, 2004 Posted July 15, 2004 Oh, that's cool, then. Blatant defiance of the UN. Yup.
GUNWOUNDS Posted July 15, 2004 Posted July 15, 2004 You asked Rookie to prove his point .......an equally unprovable point. that was my point.
GUNWOUNDS Posted July 15, 2004 Posted July 15, 2004 When pro-lifers claim that great people can be lost due to abortions they arent just making it upWell-Known Adopted Persons:Mark Acre--athlete Edward Albee--playwright Louisa May Alcott--writer Alexander the Great--King of Macedonia, 356-323 B.C. Aristotle--philosopher John J. Audubon--naturalist Freddie Bartholomew--actor Shari Belafonte-Harper--actress Ingrid Bergman--actress Andy Berlin--entrepreneur Halle Berry--actress Surya Bonaly--figure skater Les Brown--motivational speaker Richard Burton--actor Sen. Robert Byrd--politician Peter and Kitty Carruthers--figure skaters George Washington Carver--inventor President Bill Clinton--politician Lynnette Cole--Miss USA 2000 Nat King Cole--singerChristina Crawford--author Crazy Horse--Lakota war chief Daunte Culpepper--football player Faith Daniels--news anchor Charles Dickens--writer Eric Dickerson--athlete Clarissa Pinkola Estes--author Larry Ellison--entrepreneur President Gerald Ford--politician Melissa Gilbert--actress Sara Gilbert -- actress Tim Green--football player/commentator Scott Hamilton--figure skater Debbi Harry--singer Faith Hill--country singer Langston Hughes--poet and writer Jesse Jackson--minister Brent Jasmer--actor Steven Jobs--entrepreneur Matthew Laborteaux --actor Patrick Laborteaux--actor John Lennon--musician Rep. Jim Lightfoot--politician Art Linkletter--comedian Ray Liotta--actor Charlotte Anne Lopez--Miss Teen USA Greg Louganis--diver Malcolm X--civil rights leader Nelson Mandela--politician James McArthur--actor Sarah McLachlan--singer James Michener--author Tom Monaghan--entrepreneur Marilyn Monroe--actress Moses--Biblical leader Dan O'Brien--decathlete Jim Palmer--athlete Edgar Allen Poe--poet, writer Priscilla Presley--actress Michael Reagan--dancer Nancy Reagan--First Lady Eleanor Roosevelt--First Lady Jean Jacques Rousseau--philosopher Wilson Riles--educator Buffy Sainte-Marie--musician, actress Sen. Paull H. Shin--politician Dave Thomas--entrepreneur Leo Tolstoy--writer Mark Twain--writer Anthony Williams--politician
GUNWOUNDS Posted July 15, 2004 Posted July 15, 2004 And when pro-lifers claim there are plenty of good homes including rich/famous people who want to adopt.... that isnt a lie either.Famous Adoptive Parents:Brooke Adams--actress Gracie Allen--comedian Woody Allen--writer Kirstie Alley--actress Loni Anderson--actress Julie Andrews--actress Eve Arden--actress Pearl Bailey--singer Josephine Baker -- singer and dancer Harry Belafonte--singer Regina Belle--singer Sen. Lloyd Bentsen--politician Taurean Blacque--actor Erma Bombeck--comedienne Charles Bronson--actor Art Buchwald--comedian George Burns--comedian Sen. Ben Nighthorse Campbell--politician Kate Capshaw--actress Nell Carter--entertainer Connie Chung--news anchor Father George Clements--minister Joan Crawford--actress Tom Cruise--actor Jamie Lee Curtis--actress Ted Danson--actor Bette Davis--actress Sammy Davis, Jr.--entertainer Oscar de la Renta--designer William Delahunt--politician John DeLorean--entrepreneur Cecil B. De Mille--film director John Denver--singer Joan Didion--author John Gregory Dunne--author Dale Evans--singer Peter Falk--actor Mia Farrow--actress Calista Flockhart--actress Henry Fonda--actor Jane Fonda--actress Joan Fontaine--actress Robert Fulghum--writer Teri Garr--actress Louis Gossett, Jr--actor. Karen Grassle--actress Sir Christopher Guest--actor Horace George Hamilton--administrator Valerie Harper--actress Helen Hays--actress Sen. Jesse Helms--politician Bob Hope--entertainer Sen. Gordon Humphrey--politician Jill Ireland--actress Kate Jackson--actress Magic Johnson--athlete Diane Keaton--actress David Kelley--television producer Nicole Kidman--actress Jill Krementz--author Kris Kristofferson--singer Patti LaBelle--singer Hedy Lamarr--actress Rep.James Leach--politician George Lucas--film director Dan Marino--football player Willie Mays--athlete Sen. John McCain--politician Ed McMahon--entertainer Richard King Mellon--financier Gary Merrill--actor Paul Newman--actor Rosie O'Donnell--actress Marie Osmond--singer Jim Palmer--athlete Estelle Parsons--actress Michelle Pfeiffer--actress Paula Poundstone--comedian Maury Povich--news anchor Kirby Puckett--athlete Sarah Purcell--entertainer Sally Jessy Raphael--talk show host President Ronald Reagan--politician Burt Reynolds--actor Roy Rogers--entertainer Al Roker--news anchor Linda Ronstadt--singer Isabella Rossellini---actress Victoria Rowell--actress Susan Ruttan--actress Gail Sheehy--writer Sen. Paull H. Shin--politician Sen. Paul Simon--politician Stephen Spielberg--film director Parker Stevenson--actor Sharon Stone--actress Arthur Ochs Sulzberger, Sr.--publisher Gloria Swanson--actress Kurt Vonnegut--author Jane Wallace--TV personality Marcia Wallace--actress Jann Wenner--publisher Dianne Wiest--actress Jo Beth Williams--actress Judy Woodruff--news anchor Jane Wyman--actress
exatreide Posted July 15, 2004 Posted July 15, 2004 Wow listing people....that really prooved your point..
GUNWOUNDS Posted July 15, 2004 Posted July 15, 2004 I am not saying you have to be adopted by a rich or famous person to be happy.... i am merely stating that besides all the regular people who want to adopt kids and provide good homes there are tons of wealthy people who would definately want to adopt a child and the kid would be in the lap of luxury instead of
GUNWOUNDS Posted July 15, 2004 Posted July 15, 2004 and the people i listed were more for "fun facts" than trying to prove a point....obviously your insecure about your own points if you feel you have to lash out like that.
thomas Posted July 15, 2004 Posted July 15, 2004 what right do you have to dictate whether or not a woman can keep her child? A woman has the right to choose if she wants to give birth to her child and raise it as her own or let someone else do that, or abort the baby. It's in the law that a woman has the right to choose and no christian fundamentalist should take that right away.I agree that abortion is pretty sickening, but there are a multitude of cases where that is justified. Now then, follow me here: A women that is oh lets say 23 is walking home after going drinking with some friends and she's raped. Do you think she wants to have this child that she knows she can't fully love because it'll be a constant reminder of that incident? Do you think a 23 year-old can afford a child? Unless she managed to get lucky with a great job, no. Do you think she can afford the hospital bills and other expenses that come with having a child? The average cost of just having a child is well over $5,000*. Do you think someone needs that kind of expense just to have a child to give away for adoption? What if a 16 year-old girl gets pregnant, should she be forced to go through the burden of having a baby with her body that isn't ready for that?What about Bush's crusaqde to ban Gay marriage? How is that a threat to our country? Do we have the right to ban a couple to get married just because they love each other? What right do we have to do this? Does the bible automatically give us the right to do this? The answer is no, we are by law a secular country, even though religion is found throughout government, by the constitution we are a secular country. Besides, shouldn't bush be focussing his attention of preventing another massive terrorist attack on our soil and to also end the debuacle in Iraq?You cannot tell me Iraq is undercontrol, we have members of the Iraqi council killed every other week, just this week a govenor was killed in Iraq. With every death in Iraq, five more enemies are born.*Don
Wolf Posted July 16, 2004 Posted July 16, 2004 (sighs)I'm not a Christian fundamentalist. No where here have I mentioned God to support my arguments. Please do not use my religion against me.Secondly, abortion in cases where the mother or child will die is acceptable; it minimizes death. Aboriton in cases where the woman had no choice in whether or not she would have the baby, I.E., rape, is acceptable. Incest I'm not sure about, but if that floats it for you, sure, there too.HOWEVERAs I stated above, no one here has answered my questions. Why is birth, rather than conception, the arbitrary time where people become human? Secondly, why is it not a crime to kill a human being under these circumstances?To me, abortion kills a human being. I can see it no other way. Logically, that is what actually happens.I think, however, that it is the woman's right to choose. But in making her choice, she must understand that this is what she is doing. She must understand the reality, the consequences. Otherwise, she is just brainwashed. No one would care about an abortion if no one thought that fetal <entities> weren't human. A lot of us, however, do think they are human. A lot of us think that statement is logical. We care about that. If people are to make this choice, I want them to understand exactly what it is they are doing.If they don't understand the consequences, or even what they're doing, then they really aren't even making a true choice at all. Their reasoning is flawed, and they may be doing something they would not choose to do given knowledge of the reality of the situation.Therefore, saying that abortion is alright because the fetus is not even human is a lie, and ultimately robs the woman of the choice that you sought to give her in the first place. I'm not even for an abortion ban, you see. I recognize its utility in certain cases -- 1% of cases, according to Gunwounds...A figure that small... so much needless death...About Iraq; I don't know. According to the casuality lists posted, American casualties have decreased in the last two months. The number of terrorist strikes have also decreased in recent months. Also, Interim PM Allawi has created the GDC, an Iraqi intelligence agency. So, I could argue the exact opposite; that Iraq is getting better. While you just spout catchy-phrases, "Oh, with each dead Iraqi, five enemies are born!" I'd like to see empirical data that supports that. Does your graph show a 5 to 1 ratio, then?About the cost of vaginal deliveries; sure, poverty fits into the scope of necessary abortions. Of which I am not against. Maybe people should read my posts.Oh, and lastly, don't criticize Gunwounds for posting names. That's more data that supports his point that he researched than anything others have shown me.
Wolf Posted July 16, 2004 Posted July 16, 2004 Oh crap my post was the last one on the page. Again. Now no one is going to read it. Gah.(P.S. Only half-joking.)
GUNWOUNDS Posted July 16, 2004 Posted July 16, 2004 hey wolfwiz i noticed you were quoting my statistics ... well they are rough ones from what i remember from awhile back... so they are 5-10 years old as i havent debated this issue in awhile... i will go look up some recent statistics.
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