Patriotism

[ordos45]

For a long time it seems...only three years, not even that...I've been submitted to countless variations of the same thing.  Some examples:

Stupid Ay-rabs, let's kill'em all an' let God sort 'em out.  Any of ya'll who dunt feel this way ain't patriotic.

You are unpatriotic if you protest the president.

You don't support the war?!  You unpatriotic *censored*!!

Stop playing at patriotism.  You're no better than the French the way you keep saying Bush ain't right.

We could go on, but why?  I mean sure, it would be fun to draw Britney Spears into this, how she is saying we must not question the president, but why bother?  I would like to share something another president that loved his weaponry and blowing stuff up once said:

To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. -Theodore Roosevelt, 1918

How do I define Patriotism?  I don't think I really can, but I can define jingoistic imitations of patriotism, as is apparent in the first examples I used in relation to wars. 

As for me, do I like Bush's leadership? No.  Do I despise Bush? Yes.  Am I voting against Bush? Yes.  Do I disagree with most of Bush's policies? Yes.  Do I oppose the Iraq War? Yes.  Do I respect the office of the Presidency? Yes.  And in respect for that office, the presidency, would I take a bullet for Bush if I was near him during an assassination attempt for some strange reason? Yes.

I may despise the man, but I respect the office.  I respect how the constitution establishes and sets out that office. 

[danielsh]

Patriotism is a love of one's country, or more often the ideals it represents.

I love the American ideal.

[ordos45]

Good definition, and it was perfectly clear.

[Acriku]

In short, to be able to protest the President and to be able to show distaste for his policies is what America is about. I love the U.S. Constitution, I love what this country stands for, and I love that the majority does not rule the minority. That's my patriotism.

[TMA_1]

I support my country, but I am not patriotic towards it. I find it a tad unchristian in my opinion, though that is strictly my opinion.

[GUNWOUNDS]

i understand where your coming from Ordos , i really dont mind when the president is criticized...But when people use words like "despise" i think its just a bit disrespectful.

I mean Clinton did somethings i did not like but i would never say i despise him or hate his leadership....

I also didnt feel comfortable with every bashing clinton's sex offenses... its embarrassing for everyone in the world to joke about the US presidency...

I mean Clinton did somethings i did not like but i would never say i despise him or hate his leadership....

those types of heavy descriptors should be saved for truly evil people.

You may disagree with his policies but to despise the man is silly.... i have read both clinton and bush's biographies and even about bush's current lifestyle.... perfectly ordinary man

Bush sits on the couch and eat pretzels and watch sports just like you do.

[ordos45]

Despise might possibly be a bit strong, yes.  On the sitting on the couch eating pretzels and watching sports...don't do pretzels or sports, but I do get your point.  On Clinton, I can go on at great length about him...and really point out a few things that he did that people would crucify Bush for, simply because Bush is Bush, thus he is an easy target.  On the president's nightly reading of the Bible, good for him.  I wish I could say I did the same.  Although I wouldn't say things like "God told me to strike at Al Quaeda, so I did".

Also I wish to know how he could say:

No president has ever done more for human rights than I have- George W. Bush to the New Yorker.  January 11, 2004

  I mean sure, the people of Afghanistan danced in the streets at the American liberation, but Iraq?  Some, not nearly as much though.  Don't get me wrong, I do hear good things from the troops, and that they usually get treated with polite respect in most areas, even when asking prisoners questions. 

However, there is still so much blind faith in the president it is frightening.  And I have seen him do nothing to discourage it. That also is frightening.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Despise might possibly be a bit strong, yes.

[ordos45]

I wasn't making fun of him for praying for guidance.  I was pointing out he often uses God in his political rhetoric in relations to war.  And yes it's nice to think they have a shot at our rights, but democracy should be ruled by the people, and now you see every militia leader pretty much forming his own political party (see Muqtada Al Sadr).  However we're far from perfect in human rights.*

As for Bush's own patriotism?  I do think he loves this country.  That is one thing I will not dispute.

* http://www.hrw.org/wr2k/Us.htm  From Clinton's time in office, but still relevant enough.

[danielsh]

What frightens me most about President Bush is that, as far as I can tell, he really thinks he's doing good.

As the canyon between the rich and poor widens, as we torture detainees on and off American soil, as we curtail civil liberties and fight civil rights, as the American hegemony expands to every corner of the Earth, President Bush sleeps soundly.  I frankly doubt that he feels much doubt about any of his decisions.  Consider his background: after Laura helped him to stop drinking, Mr. Bush decided that God had a divine reason to sober him up.  On September 11, that reason became apparent and we began our crusade on terror.

It's terrifying to have a leader who does not question himself.  He could not come up with a single example of a bad decision.  In his mind, President Bush does not make mistakes.  There's something very, very wrong with that.

Human rights?  Don't make me laugh.  Franklin Delano Roosevelt---one of the few U.S. Presidents, by the way, whom I do not despise---defended human rights.  John F. Kennedy and Lindon B. Johnson defended human rights.  President Bush opposes human rights: it's okay to keep the queers from civil marriages, it's okay to torture detainees in Guant

[nemafakei]

Answer first to the human race, after which feel free to be patriotic. For small countries, patriotism rarely harms humanity as a whole, but powerful ones can damage the world in their own self interest.

Real patriotism should be working to the real betterment of your own country, not just by reference to other countries, but making it a better place from the inside out - making the people more understanding, better educated, and more honest. Patriotism should not be about cheering on your country as it fights and destroys, but cheering on your country as it wages peace, and helps others.

[GUNWOUNDS]

well its not really that frightening .... no leadership encourages doubt or questioning of his decisions... to do so would be a poor leader. 

[Dante]

Not a well-balanced and democratic leader then?

[Edric O]

Countries are ephemeral constructs. They come and go all throughout human history. They're not even particularly well-defined or separated from each other. Practically all the countries and cultures we have today have been created through the fusion of previous cultures and countries. The entire world is a melting pot, and no country is a closed system - with the exception of certain ultra-nationalistic totalitarian countries like Nazi Germany or North Korea, perhaps.

If patriotism means loyalty to a certain ruling class, then patriotism is voluntary servitude - and as such, all rational human beings should oppose it. If patriotism means loyalty to a certain arbitrary group of your fellow human beings above all others, then it is simply pointless and unnecessary.

You should be patriotic towards Mankind, not towards any singular country. You should be proud of the achievements of all human beings, not just of the achievements of one random group of people.

In the specific case of the USA, I don't see why you should respect the presidency or any other government position if the person who occupies that position is not worthy of your respect. And I'm not talking about George Bush here - I'm talking about presidents and government officials in general. If I think my president is doing a horrible job, then I sure as hell won't take any bullets for him - in fact, I wouldn't mind shooting him myself. Government is established to serve the people, not the other way around.

[nemafakei]

"no leadership encourages doubt or questioning of his decisions... to do so would be a poor leader."

You *have* read Dune, and Dune Messiah, haven't you?!

[GUNWOUNDS]

ok ok .... "no non-fictional leadership encourages doubt or questioning of his decisions..." :P :P

[nemafakei]

No... Paul *was* the unquestionable leader. The result was the Jihad, which he failed to stop by embracing his popular image too readily.

"'Dune' was aimed at this whole idea of the infalliable leader because my view of history says mistakes made by a leader (or made in a leader's name) are amplified by the numbers who follow without question"

Frank Herbert's own description, in the foreword of 'Eye'. He continues...

"That's how Germany said "Sieg Heil", and murdered six million of our fellow human beings."

[ordos45]

"no leadership encourages doubt or questioning of his decisions... to do so would be a poor leader."

To repeat Teddy...

To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. -Theodore Roosevelt, 1918

Yes he was past his presidency by then, but still it applied to a look back on his own presidency.  But I suppose he was a...poor leader.

[danielsh]

ok ok .... "no non-fictional leadership encourages doubt or questioning of his decisions..." :P :P

I'm deeply unhappy that too few people questioned Adolf Hitler's leadership to keep him from coming to power.  Leaders who desire power would indeed oppose the questioning of their decisions.  Leaders who desire democracy would encourage it.

Authority is not to be respected, common sense and the human conscience are.  Authority has a nasty tendency to silence man's internal voice of reason.

[Wolf]

I feel bad putting up this little post, but, basically, I agree with Acriku. Can't say it any better. Short and simple. I like that, but rarely practice it.

[GUNWOUNDS]

you guys can put any kind of spin you want on it .. but a good captain doesnt encourage mutiny.

thats poor leadership.

A leader is not suppose to plant seeds of doubt or uncertainty in the minds of his followers.

In addition there exists a checks and balances within the government.... which has built-in questioning and criticism.... And our leader is democratically elected. So who says he has no accountability?

Furthermore, a leader should always put on the appearance of believing what he is doing is right... if he was "wishy washy"

[GUNWOUNDS]

The ultimate form of approval or criticism is whether Bush gets re-Elected... we the citizens who have no top secret pentagon knowledge have no place telling him what to do in matters of military affair. To me there is no point trying to criticize the president in mid war.  However, we do have a say in whether he gets to keep his job ... thats where our place is.

[danielsh]

If the citizens kept quiet until election day, critical debate would no longer exist.

[Wolf]

And I hope you would be just as adamant about not keeping silence whatsoever if it were a Democratic president dragging our nation into the gutter. Or, maybe we just disagree on what constitutes "dragging the nation into the gutter"?

[danielsh]

And I hope you would be just as adamant about not keeping silence whatsoever if it were a Democratic president dragging our nation into the gutter. Or, maybe we just disagree on what constitutes "dragging the nation into the gutter"?

Most likely.  But I can assure you, I criticize absolutely everyone.  As I said above, FDR is one of the few Presidents whom I respect, and even that respect is tempered by the knowledge that he may have changed the nation just enough to prevent major social upheaval and change.  And considering how right our Left is, it's unlikely that its representatives will make me happy.