ACLU Vs. Cross in Seal

[ordos45]

Scytale was telling me about the ACLU's current case to remove the cross from the Los Angeles County Seal.  To paraphrase what he said:

The cross stands for The Missions.  It's historical. 

If you're going to go after the cross in the seal...

1)  Why not remove the goddess pomona that takes up a good 2/5ths of the seal?

2)  Why not rename "Los Angeles" it means "The Angels".

3)  Why not rename half the streets in Los Angeles due to their religious undertones?

4)  Why not rename San Francisco (Saint Francisco)?  Or half the cities in California for that matter?

5)  Why not rename certain sports teams?  Anaheim Angels?  San Diego Padres?

[thomas]

here's the Los Angeles seal

[thomas]

here's an explanation of it.

Goddess pomona, she represents produce (oranges and such)

at her feet is water- pacific ocean

behind her are mountians -San Gabriel mountains

the triangle and callipers- represent LA's industry

the ship - Spanish Galleon

Fish - LA's fishing industry

Cow - farming

semi-circle and stars, hollywood bowl

cross - the missions

oil towers - the oil that is found here

[Caid Ivik]

What kind of freaks are these ACLU? ;D

[danielsh]

Speaking as a card-carrying member, we're not all freaks.

Do you have more information on the case, Ordos?

[Caid Ivik]

Well, I hope not everyone of your organization supports such childish initiative.

[nemafakei]

Crosses are, for a start, well-established heraldic charges. I'm actually more worried that it places a metal (or) on another (argent).

[thomas]

In short dan, the ACLU wants LA t oremove it from their seal or they'll be sued. ACLU is claiming the 1st ammendment and say it's . . . glorifying christianity. ACLU ,in short, is full fo shit and has launched about 20 similar cases against other cities. of the 5 members on LA's city council that deals with this, only two (out of five) are willing to fight this. I hope that they make it a public descision. In my opinion, the ACLU has no right to launch such a case agaisnt a tiny cross, why don't they attack nearly every major city in California? Why not Santa Barbara (holy barbara)? California is full of Catholicism and to try to take away that is preposterous.

Nema, I fear the oil towers aswell :D ;) there's even a few streets in LA county named halliburton. . . .

[thomas]

here's an article I found

http://mindofmog.net/archives/2004/05/26/aclu-vs-la/

Beyond the pale, the ACLU is up to it again, this time wanting the cross removed from LA County

[ordos45]

Slightly offensive satire on the case.  Screennames shortened for privacy.

Galaxy: Heh...I think I know the ultimate irony that could happen in this...

Galaxy: if the ACLU brought in a Hispanic lawyer named J

[Dante]

I like that, I really like that...  ;D 

[danielsh]

here's an article I found

I did some digging on Google News and found an opinion piece that represents the other side... and does it less rabidly.  (Sorry, the piece you cited was just too clich

[thomas]

anything that that is aggressive towards the ACLU is right? It was just a rant, and I liked it.

a picture of an indian (fuck political correctness) and a mission, that'll require too much space and think about it, the missions were'nt too popular with the indians at all, hell missionaries were friggin hunted by the indians.

Why even bother to do this? does it "force" religion on anyone? no.

Does it go agaisnt the 1st amendment? no, it stands for the missions.

Why not remove the goddess pomona? why not remname half the streets in LA, why not change the name of LA? all are religious.

the ACLU's arguement is flawed and petty and as a denizen of LA county, I hope LA fights back at thie bullshit lawsuit.

[danielsh]

However, the naming of LA or its streets does not exclude anyone.  Although, as the author of the article I referenced pointed out (I suggest you read it), a cross immediately implies "I am Christian," "Los Angeles" does not.  Indeed, I---a fairly educated person, I like to think---would have looked at the cross and thought, "Why is Los Angeles trying to be Christian?"  That same thought doesn't occur to me when I read "Los Angeles," or see Pomona.

Maybe the Native Americans should be depicted destroying the mission.  That would be historically accurate.  This is a question of distinguishing between what symbols imply, and I think I continue to support the ACLU on this one.

(Oh, and it's not anything aggressive towards the ACLU.  Rather, "I

[Wolf]

I think, though, the name Saint Francisco clearly implies a Christian heritage, as does a cross on a seal...

[danielsh]

"San Francisco" does indeed imply a Christian heritage, but couldn't possibly be interpreted to make a statement regarding that heritage.  A cross on a seal is another story.

[thomas]

However, the naming of LA or its streets does not exclude anyone.

[danielsh]

1.  Good.

2.  I was kidding.

3.  As I tried to point out, this whole thing is an issue of viewing the cross from different perspectives.  That was the whole point of that article, as far as I could tell---imagine seeing this cross from the perspective of a Jewish immigrant who didn't understand that it was historical.

4.  It's too much an endorsement of one philosophy.

5.  I addressed this already.

I know full well what the First Amendment is, and I know that its spirit is intended to separate church and state.  I see this as a violation of that spirit.  "We have to save space" doesn't strike me as a valid reason to restrict liberty.

[thomas]

it'd just be a pain in the ass to change it and it is unnecessary becuase some group whose member ship is a very very small percent of LA wants to bitch and moan about it.

it complies with the 1st no if's and's or but's. It stands for something historical not the religion(s).

the whole jewish immigrant perspective is one of the most stupid things I have ever heard. It's intent is what matters not the perspective. I could be a jew and travel to India and see the bhuddist/hindu swastika, I'd flip out and think they were endorsing the Nazi's and the holocaust, but no it's not that, it means peace or unity (I forget) but did I know that? no. Should they remove it then? no.

[Acriku]

It's funny how people bash the ACLU. Who in their right mind would bash the one organization that protects every single person from people intruding on their rights given in the Bill of Rights? It's actually not funny, it's sad. There was a case of the ACLU where they fought to protect a student's rights to put a biblical verse in the yearbook. ACLU isn't that bad after all huh?

[thomas]

. . . that was stupid.

[Acriku]

It's stupid to fight for a person's constitutionally-given rights?

[thomas]

*sigh* your arguements are too vague and aren't direct to the point, you are trying to draw me off on some irrelevent tangent. If you believe that'll justitfy the ACLU's actions then you are very very wrong. I'm not bashing or trying to taint the ACLU's image, I'm just opposed to their lawsuit agaisnt Los Angeles.

You are going on about the ACLU itself not the lawsuit. Just please stop, you aren't doing anything beneficial to this debate (if you will call it that).

[SurlyPIG]

So now a crucifix is symbolic of a few missionaries that failed in their mission and, along with disease, new ideas and weapons, played a role in pretty much destroying an untainted native culture.  This isn't about religion at all.  This is politics.

I would think that Christians would be on side for this one.  If I were a Christian I sure would be.  Isn't the cross supposed to symbolize the sacrifice of Jesus?  To go from being symbolic of an ultimate, humanity-saving sacrifice to being symbolic of the largely failed actions of a few shortighted, ethnocentric, egotistical, uncaring individuals is a huge slap in the face.  One would think that Christians and historians alike would want the symbolic representation of the missions on the seal to be changed.

[Acriku]

*sigh* your arguements are too ague and aren't direct to the point, you are trying to draw me off on some irrelevent tangent. If you believe that'll justitfy the ACLU's actions then you are very very wrong. I'm not bashing or trying to taint the ACLU's image, I'm just opposed to their lawsuit agaisnt Los Angeles.

You are going on about the ACLU itself not the lawsuit. Just please stop, you aren't doing anything beneficial to this debate (if you will call it that).

Oh I'm sorry I made you think  ::) And I was referring my posts to other people as well, who seemed to be against the ACLU.