an interesting connundrum

[Cyborg]

That really fully depends on how you define "you"...

[GUNWOUNDS]

That really fully depends on how you define "you"...

well if you dont have a telepathic link to your clone... then it merely becomes an identical twin....

an identical twin is genetically IDENTICAL to its sibling.... yet they are two different people.

so unless you have some sort of telepathic link to the clone its merely an identical twin

[TMA_1]

Regarding Vanguards post:

I have thought about that too! so I looked up about it once and realized that a little while after birth you stop producing new neurons, so the neurons you have now you have had since almost a little after birth. So even though you produce almost a completely new body in 7 years, the nerve tissue (brain, spinal cord, blah blah) in your body is the same. So you are the same person because the basic nervous system is the same. That make any sense? It kinda made me go, whoa.lol

Also empr, if I am understanding you right I actually have read a startrek book that dealt with the teleporter thing you have brought up. Now if this isnt what you were talking about just tell me.

Basically what a teleporter does is it breaks down the molecular structure of your body, sends it through "subspace". This is what they use for faster than light communications.

(warpdrive sends a ship into DeSitter Space, which is very different than subspace, just to lower confusion about what subspace is.)

anyways the atoms of your body are transferred through subspace and are intercepted by the reciever (be it a ship, starbase, or planet). You are then reorganized and thats that! :)

Now when you are transferred to a place that has no other teleporter like on a planet surface or something, the range and use of a transporter beam is very limited.

But there was a story that talked about this dilemma. In the book the federation finally started installing computers that retained the information of everyone that traveled through the teleporter. What happened was there were some very very important Vulcans that were destroyed in a battle. The Vulcans needed them desperately, and because they used teleporters with this new technology the information of who they were physically was stored in computers.

THere was a huge big to do, but finally the federation used the information of these vulcans and recreated them from the basic information of the teleporter computers. The whole dilemma was "are the vulcans really themselves? Or are they just creatures that are exactly identical to the vulcans that were killed?"

Anyways the vulcans were in a comatose (sp?) state. The federation figured it just didnt work, but the vulcans did a practice seldom done (it was done in startrek 3). They found the Katra's of the vulcans and reinfused them into the bodies and they eventually refound all their old thoughts and memories.

Its a great book! I forgot the title though Ill go check out my books and pull it up if any of you want to read it.

[danielsh]

So you are the same person because the basic nervous system is the same. That make any sense? It kinda made me go, whoa.lol

Not quite. What's important isn't the neurons, but the connections between them, and those are always changing.

[TMA_1]

... lol

you are being way too specific man, because without the neurons you would have no chemicals transferring between those neurons. I think you are kinda getting off the point. We are not talking about what is important in human thought processes, but the fact that not all cells in the human body die out. I am correct in this case that neurons can die, but thoes that stay usually stay for the long term. I am not talking about what makes a person, or how they think, but what stays with a person. see what I mean?

[shygirl4]

Its quite simple really, the first person is the original , the second is a copy, its like burning (copying) a CD , the data is exactly the same on both CD`S but only one is the ogiginal.

Shy  ::)

[danielsh]

I am correct in this case that neurons can die, but thoes that stay usually stay for the long term. I am not talking about what makes a person, or how they think, but what stays with a person.

Ahh, I see.  I typically interpret "a person" to mean... I don't know how to phrase this... one's essence.  One's personality.  You get my drift.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Ahh, I see.

[danielsh]

meaning if someone gets amnesia and is never cured then they are basically a different person.

right?

*shrug* If this hypothetical someone was a blank slate, forced to re-experience life and rebuild based upon those experiences, he may be considered a different person.  But to the best of my understanding, the brain, in the final stages of its development, allows the neurons to develop all the connections that they can.  Then, the connections either strengthen and remain or weaken and disappear as they are used.  (Mind you, I'm no doctor, so this is all just based on what I remember from various PBS specials.)  I don't know much about amnesia---would the connections generally remain as they were?  If so, I assume that this hypothetical someone would have similar reactions to similar stimuli before and after his amnesia.

Or am I wrong about that?

[nemafakei]

As far as I'm concerned, Emprworm, if someone dies and someone else is born, I'm not worried about walking into the machine. Being dead is only a problem if you have something better to do.

[emprworm]

well i don't really want to die.

[Acriku]

What if the said person did walk through Tube A and disintegrated, and a person of the same composition, memory, and conscience (ignoring the complications with neurons and such) walks out of Tube B. Certainly this 'new' person is a human being, under any scientific definition, so why shouldn't this new person 'gain' a soul from God? However a soul is transplanted into a fetus, I see no reason why the same could not be done to the new person. In fact, I think the person has every right to have the chance to be saved - through the transplantation of a soul.

However, if the new person does get a soul, does it get the soul that came from Tube A? Because, this transplanted soul would have to be the same to comply with the new person who is just like the old person (if there is any connection at all between soul and body). So, do we end up with identical souls or a relocated soul?

[emprworm]

What if the said person did walk through Tube A and disintegrated, and a person of the same composition, memory, and conscience (ignoring the complications with neurons and such) walks out of Tube B. Certainly this 'new' person is a human being, under any scientific definition, so why shouldn't this new person 'gain' a soul from God? However a soul is transplanted into a fetus, I see no reason why the same could not be done to the new person. In fact, I think the person has every right to have the chance to be saved - through the transplantation of a soul.

However, if the new person does get a soul, does it get the soul that came from Tube A? Because, this transplanted soul would have to be the same to comply with the new person who is just like the old person (if there is any connection at all between soul and body). So, do we end up with identical souls or a relocated soul?

  the scenario is talking about math & science, not matters of faith.  i just mentioned my personal beliefs when i spoke of souls.  of course, since you deny such a thing exists, then simply answer the question based on your own views of existence.

[Acriku]

Are they hard questions Empr? I merely asked them to continue discussion and stir thoughts in areas not delved into. Whether I believe in souls is irrelevant, as I can still maintain a thoughtful discussion on their subject. As always, one can find conundrums within conundrums.

[emprworm]

Are they hard questions Empr? I merely asked them to continue discussion and stir thoughts in areas not delved into. Whether I believe in souls is irrelevant, as I can still maintain a thoughtful discussion on their subject. As always, one can find conundrums within conundrums.

was my original question hard Acriku?  Did you understand it?  Read the original post.  Are you able to answer it Acriku?  Slippery atheists.  :D

[GUNWOUNDS]

hmm ok i will take a shot at this....

1.) lets assume souls exist

2.) lets assume when someone dies their soul begins to part with their body... therefore the body is a sort of "anchor"

3.) lets assume that people who have died BUT have been resuscitated have their souls come back... and this cause them to come back to life..

4.) From this ..... i would have to say that as your body gets disintegrated in Tube A... your souls begins to part... according to near-death accounts this takes awhile it isnt instantaneous...

then as your body in Tube B is formed..... the soul feels a beckoning... as if the anchor was restored.... and the soul relocates and possesses

[TMA_1]

lol...

"Death is only a problem if you have something better to do."

look, i feel like an idiot for always pointing out nema's funny sayings, and hopefully you dont take offense of it nema, but geesh it is just too damn clever.lol good one, even though knowing how you do things, you probably think I am weird for reposting it, but its funny people! and quite true.hehe

[Acriku]

was my original question hard Acriku?  Did you understand it?  Read the original post.  Are you able to answer it Acriku?  Slippery atheists.  :D

I saw what other people had to say, and didn't post as I would be iterating what has already been said. The slippery rabbit does not burn easily eh?

hmm ok i will take a shot at this....

Thanks for replying. What you said indeed makes sense, and if I understood it correctly, you are implying that the new person is the same person as the old person, minus a soul? Which is indeed the first conundrum presented (to satisfy old Empr).

[TMA_1]

lol true acriku.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Thanks for replying. What you said indeed makes sense, and if I understood it correctly, you are implying that the new person is the same person as the old person, minus a soul? Which is indeed the first conundrum presented (to satisfy old Empr).

yes but i am saying that there could be the possibility of the soul relocating.... so maybe it could become the same exact person ... who knows....

[Acriku]

Ok, so we got that settled. I have a new question to think about, what if the data (i.e. atoms and their compositions to form the person) was stored, and allowed the option of making a person step out of Tube B that is the same composition of the person that stepped out the first time, and you agreed would be the exact same person. Would there then be a soul duplication?

[sneezer3]

Would there then be a soul duplication?

Guess that depends on your religion.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Ok, so we got that settled. I have a new question to think about, what if the data (i.e. atoms and their compositions to form the person) was stored, and allowed the option of making a person step out of Tube B that is the same composition of the person that stepped out the first time, and you agreed would be the exact same person. Would there then be a soul duplication?

Ok Acriku you are saying that instead of the first scenario where we have a lifeless corpse in Tube B... that suddenly comes back to life once the person in Tube A is disintegrated....

That instead in this new scenario we have 2 living bodies of the exact same mentality existing at the same time.

well if the soul is metaphysical.... no way for a physical machine to recreate a metaphysical entity...

so i dont think a soul can be duplicated if it is metaphysical.

But if you are setting up the scenario such that the Tube B does create a live thinking person while the person in Tube A is still alive then

[GUNWOUNDS]

So then there are 3 possible scenarios then correct? (assuming souls are metaphysical and not able to be duplicated)

1.) Tube A = Live person to be cloned

    Tube B = Cloned corpse awaiting repossession by

            Tube A's soul once Tube A is disintegrated.

2.) Tube A = Live person to be cloned

    Tube B = Live clone with different spirit created by

            God but forced to act similar to Tube A being

            in the exact same body.

3.) Tube A = Tube B 

    Due to souls not existing.

Note*- for scenario #2 when i say the person would act the same even with a different soul.... I came about this idea because the brain would have the same exact synaptic connections, the same memories stored in chemical banks, the same taste buds, the same ear drums, the same skin sensors.... meaning even with a new spirit  the body would act the same due to "feeling", "remembering", "tasting" everything exactly the same as the other person.

[Acriku]

If the two people made from Tube B are the exact same in every way, and assuming there is some connection between the soul and body that links them uniquely, then there would have to be a soul duplication - not from the machine, I did not say that, but from God. Otherwise, why would the second person not get a soul if he is the same as the first? He is one of God's children and should be treated with the same chance to be saved.