space travel in the prequels

TMA_1 · May 23, 2004

this has been talked about in many threads before, but I cant remember a thread being based on this, if there is than I just completely forgot, but I see nothing wrong with making another thread on it after so long.

What bothers me is I was reading portions of Butlerian Jihad, and in it they talk about travel and how long it takes. In one part it talks about the Tlaluxa traveling to send supplies to the aid of the movement against the machines. In a part though one of the tlaluxa say that he was lucky to be there with a few supplies because it would take months to get there and get all the supplies they need.

Well that must mean that they have faster than light travel, and this is downright impossible with the kind of drives that the people have at this time. There are a few ships that the machines have that seem that can travel faster than light, but not the other kinds of ships in the universe.

It is just so fake to me. How can it only take months to travel from one star to another when it owuld at least take years with close to light speeds. it is just annoying because when it gets that fake it ruins credibility. Dont get me wrong it is just a story, but if a story makes a mistake like that it just ruins the build-up of reality for me. I mean you have to at least have a bit of reality and scientific facts, so that it makes it somewhat believable. Especially for the Dune universe. Of course science fiction is rarely on the side of science, but at least most sci fi writers try to make it somewhat believable in this kind of story.

dont you guys agree?

and this is why I agree with DE because it says that foldspace technology did exist for at least a few thousand years before the jihad. They used computers to navigate through space, and this makes most sense to me because before the jihad they still had the technology and ability to unify thousands of planets.

Vanguard3000 · May 23, 2004

Yes, it never says anything about space travel in the prequels, so it sounds like ships simply accelerate to FTL speeds, without any apparent compensation for time dilation, etc. What really struck me as odd was that the Machines could go faster than humans because their bodies were not as frail. But at ftl speeds, without any compensation, the g-forces would tear just about anything apart.

and this is why I agree with DE because it says that foldspace technology did exist for at least a few thousand years before the jihad. They used computers to navigate through space, and this makes most sense to me because before the jihad they still had the technology and ability to unify thousands of planets.

Yes, even before reading the DE, I figured this was implied. That's why the Guild came about in the first place. The machines normally used to navigate foldspace were forbidden, so eventually, people took over (in a nutshell).

Colonel_Worf · May 24, 2004

Don't you think that ships probably had faster than light travel, but just not near as fast as what they could accomplish by folding space?

TMA_1 · May 24, 2004

no, and this is why.

From the many theories of faster-than-light travel, a lot of them say that once you can attain speeds faster than light, especially in the case of fold-space technology you really cannot go "faster" or "slower" than any other kinds of faster than light technology, because it is outside the normal bubble of time-space. This means that once you break the faster than lightspeed barrier, the variable is broken and you could basically go from one point to another instantly.

THat is why it says with foldspace that you "travel without moving".

That is another thing that bothers me, because when they mention in the prequels that a ship folding space takes two months to get from one destination to another, that is silly to me. That is another debate though.

I pretty much agree with vanguards statements, they sum em up.

driftingcloud · May 25, 2004

Don't you think that ships probably had faster than light travel, but just not near as fast as what they could accomplish by folding space?

I have to agree with the posts above, where my impression of the history has always been that foldspace existed prior to the Butlerian Jihad, but computers and thinking machines controlled the folding of space. The real challenge here, when the machines are eliminated and forbidden, is that space travel grinds to a halt, for perhaps centuries, until a reliable alternative to machines is found: human minds transformed through exposure to melange. This is perhaps the gravest error of the BJ prequels, that there should have been a "dark ages" associated with eliminating computer-guided space travel that continues until melange is discovered. This event is as pivotal in transforming human consciousness as Leto's Golden Path will be 10,000 years later. the BJ prequels have the discovery of melange coinciding to cleverly with the BJ.

While I can't name my source for interpretation of the books (some have said the DE explains it?) but I think there are enough hints throughout all of FH books and writings to frame up the above perspective on space travel pre-BJ.

Emperor Harkonnen · May 25, 2004

I don't know if anyone said this, but they travel in something called innerstellar gulf. this however I have no idea how works. though I am absolutely sure that it was mentioned. both machines and humans use this.

Vanguard3000 · May 25, 2004

I don't remember that (perhaps it was a translation thing), but it's probably just referring to the vast, emptyness of space.

Emperor Harkonnen · May 25, 2004

nah, I have it from Hunting Harkonnens short story. you can check it out yourself. it is somewhere in the beginning. just search for gulf or something like that. you will find it

Vanguard3000 · May 25, 2004

"The Harkonnen space yacht left the family-held industries on Hagal and crossed the interstellar gulf toward Salusa Secundus."

Yes, as I said, the "insterstellar gulf" is just a metaphor for the void of space.

Emperor Harkonnen · May 26, 2004

okay. didn't know that. anyways I think that they used the same technology as in star trek then

Colonel_Worf · May 29, 2004

Okay, so when it all boils down to it, no theory can justify folding space or refute it.. because it's NOT REAL. That's what makes it fun, right?

Emperor Harkonnen · May 29, 2004

folding space is not against the laws of physics. though isn't it possible that they used the same technology as in star trek? with this technology it takes time to travel long distances, and it is not against the laws of physics.

Caid Ivik · May 29, 2004

Depends on which description (and thus the laws which you choose) of universe you use. Einstein allows it, Kepler doesn't.

Ninja_Sher · May 30, 2004

no, and this is why.
From the many theories of faster-than-light travel, a lot of them say that once you can attain speeds faster than light, especially in the case of fold-space technology you really cannot go "faster" or "slower" than any other kinds of faster than light technology, because it is outside the normal bubble of time-space. This means that once you break the faster than lightspeed barrier, the variable is broken and you could basically go from one point to another instantly.
THat is why it says with foldspace that you "travel without moving".
That is another thing that bothers me, because when they mention in the prequels that a ship folding space takes two months to get from one destination to another, that is silly to me. That is another debate though.
I pretty much agree with vanguards statements, they sum em up.

The holtzman effect could fold space in such a way that space near it got nonexistent or something, so you might be able to 'cheat' the space and go faster than light.

Alexander_Ordos · May 30, 2004

TMA is right, the light speed space traveling takes years and they couldn't possibly be using the fold space traveling method, because when the spaceship enters fold space, it needs a navigator with supernatural mental powers to find a precise path through dimension, since the holtzman effect , the so called fold space is a thing that shrinks the universe for a perticular object (Highliner) and makes the path much shorter. In the times of BJ there were no navigators, so the only way to travel was the lightspeed, to which our science is reaching now. Well that means there's a mistake in BJ.

But that still makes it complicating because even with speeds much slower than the light speed a human can't possibly steer the ship. That means the human ships needed some machines for navigation. But humans had layed a full restriction on any kind of thinking machines ( The computers we're using now are also "thinking machines"), so how did they possibly control those ships? What I'm trying to say by these facts, is that it's not a very good idea to seek precise explanations for sci-fi stories ;)

TMA_1 · May 30, 2004

yeah alexander, good way of explaining it in my opinion. :)

to me though it is like this. The speed of light as we know it is a constant. It is a constant because we exist in a certain space-time dimension. Now if you can alter space time, than the constant of the speed of light can theoretically also be changed. Change the medium of the constant, and you change the constant itself.

Caid Ivik · May 31, 2004

I can say that in ten millenias there is enough time to invent a more sophisticated physical model of the universe, where speed may become fully irrelevant...

Tinuviel · May 31, 2004

I can say that in ten millenias there is enough time to invent a more sophisticated physical model of the universe, where speed may become fully irrelevant...

Ditto. Light is the only constant in the universe. Space and time are variable. 8)

Caid Ivik · May 31, 2004

Well, once we may find out that even light is a variable. What's constant in, ie string theory? Only the strings themselves, tough they are still shown as some "monade", more metaphysical than a physical term.

Tinuviel · May 31, 2004

Yeah, absolutely. Maybe constants can be created by those who use them... Experience of the physical world is dependent on the human "sensation", which can be questioned. Perhaps the only "reality" is the human being, in whatever form they take... :)

Caid Ivik · May 31, 2004

Exactly. All these equations and constants, even numbers, terms and other signs were created by humans themselves. What is "truth" is irrelevant, as anybody can define the word by his own view ;D

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