Why must Jesus be a white man?

[Acriku]

You aren't getting it. Interfering with a temporeal realm from a nontemporeal realm is logically impossible, or so I've reasoned. A being in a nontemporeal realm is frozen, so to speak.

[GUNWOUNDS]

You aren't getting it. Interfering with a temporeal realm from a nontemporeal realm is logically impossible, or so I've reasoned. A being in a nontemporeal realm is frozen, so to speak.

no he isnt frozen

[Acriku]

But you said he is eternal, meaning time doesn't pass in his realm, so which is it - he exists in no time, or he exists in all time?

[GUNWOUNDS]

But you said he is eternal, meaning time doesn't pass in his realm, so which is it - he exists in no time, or he exists in all time?

doesnt that mean the same thing?  i mean if he exists in all time.... then time does not pass for him...

"passing of time" is meaningless to someone who exists in the past, present , and future....

[Acriku]

Ok, let's make all time and no time interchangeable. Now, my logic still stands. It time doesn't pass for him, how can he directly interfere with Earth? Anything he does, whether it be some mind trick or physical magic, it all requires time.

[GUNWOUNDS]

when you read a comic book  the time in the comic book passes as you go from frame to frame.... but the time passing in the comic book is not affecting you.... especially if the comic book says "and then 20 years later... superman did this"

i know its a crude example.. but i dont have much to work with.

[Acriku]

As you go frame to frame, time passes on your side as well. When you turn the page, time passes as well.

[GUNWOUNDS]

As you go frame to frame, time passes on your side as well. When you turn the page, time passes as well.

think about if the comic book was all on one huge page..... and you could view the past present, and future all at the same time.

Basically in 1 second of your time you have viewed all of eternity of the other realm.

but i guess its that 1 second you are talking about.

[GUNWOUNDS]

however time really only has a meaning to something that can decay  .. meaning... does time pass in a perfect vacuum?

therefore if God is an entity that cannot die or is incapable if decay... then even tho time may exist.. it is meaningless to him and might as well not exist.

if that makes any sense

[Dunenewt]

Religion is outside of science surely?

[Wolf]

Well, when you asked what was an assumption or a Biblically supported fact, I believe what I was trying to articulate is that human beings exist in a present moment. The now. I assume this.

God doesn't so much exist outside of time as he does exist in everytime. We exist now. God exists everywhen.

The point about Sodom and Gomorrah. Don't forget Sennacherib. God doesn't so much exist beyond time as he exists everywhen. Sodom, Gomorrah, and Sennacherib were destroyed yesterday, today, and tomorrow -- to God. The fact that God directly interfered in human events to change them proves that human beings have some degree of free will. If God, by his mere omniscience, laid out mankind's destiny, then God would not need to intervene. However, this is assuming that these cities were actually destroyed by the hand of God. If you assume that God destroyed these cities, then you also assume that God is real. If we say that God is omniscient, we also assume that God is real to debate the matter of free will.

When you say that "we don't know we don't have free will", I think you understand what I'm trying to say, but not the whole bit. I am trying to tell you that, yes, we do have free will, and let me make two points about this, both are required, so please do not address one without the other. Because God is omniscient of every possible human future; an infinity of them, human beings have an infinite number of choices. God exists everywhen, so to him, all these events have already happened, in every possible timeline.

At the same time, human beings only exist in the present moment, and we have made none of these infinite possible choices. Although God does know where each choice leads, and which timeline will be altered by each choice, this does not affect our perception of free will. Free will requires the ability to make choices? Correct? Why does another's (anyone, not necessarily God) knowledge of the choices you make affect your free will? I cannot comprehend this concept. Does God's knoweldge of all possible future timelines somehow metaphysically strip us of our free will in some magical sense? I do not understand.

When you say, "we don't know we don't have free will", I think you get the basic picture, but still assume that free will doesn't exist. It is more that, "we can only perceive free will, because we exist in the present moment."

Anyway, I hope this thinking-out-loud of mine helped.

[sneezer3]

Religion is outside of science surely?

Well, some science sometimes can be wrong. And still science can't support anything dealing with origins. Because its not observable.

But onto the point. Time is only a law of this universe. Its a bit wierd trying to understand it outside. And still We being bound by these laws. Who are we to judge. The only standered we have to judge by is the science in this universe. It would be like an ant saying its scientifically impossable everthing works togather in our bodies. According to what? Its science?

[GUNWOUNDS]

The fact that God directly interfered in human events to change them proves that human beings have some degree of free will. If God, by his mere omniscience, laid out mankind's destiny, then God would not need to intervene.

Excellent ideas!!

You are really thinking now....

The fact that God intervenes shows that we are not laid out in some automated skit.

Wolfwiz, what are your thoughts on God existing in "everywhen"

[Wolf]

The way I think of it is just that; God is in everywhen. A thousand years ago, he is there. Today, he is here. A thousand years from now, he is there. Now, this isn't my broken English, I am using is for a reason. God is a singular being, existing in every single moment in time, at every point where a single quantum particle moved. Yet, he is still whole. His consciousness is connected.

Think of it like this, now, you are reading this post. But you are not the you that was reading this post a minute ago. And the you that is reading this post a minute from now will also not be you. You exist in the present moment, and you no longer feel what you felt a moment ago; at least, not exactly. You also do not feel what you will feel a moment from now. That is existence in the present moment.

God, on the other hand, feels what he felt yesterday. He feels what he is feeling for our present moments, what we call now. And he feels what he will feel in the future. He exists at all times, at all places, he is omnipresent; everywhen. And one can only be truly omniscient (have perfect knowledge of everything) by existing everywhere at every time.

[GUNWOUNDS]

The way I think of it is just that; God is in everywhen. A thousand years ago, he is there. Today, he is here. A thousand years from now, he is there. Now, this isn't my broken English, I am using is for a reason. God is a singular being, existing in every single moment in time, at every point where a single quantum particle moved. Yet, he is still whole. His consciousness is connected.

Think of it like this, now, you are reading this post. But you are not the you that was reading this post a minute ago. And the you that is reading this post a minute from now will also not be you. You exist in the present moment, and you no longer feel what you felt a moment ago; at least, not exactly. You also do not feel what you will feel a moment from now. That is existence in the present moment.

God, on the other hand, feels what he felt yesterday. He feels what he is feeling for our present moments, what we call now. And he feels what he will feel in the future. He exists at all times, at all places, he is omnipresent; everywhen. And one can only be truly omniscient (have perfect knowledge of everything) by existing everywhere at every time.

would this prevent him from performing a physical act on earth?

[Wolf]

I don't see how. If we assume that God has omniscience in order to debate free will, then we must also assume that God has the omnipotence to undertake actions on Earth at times and places that He chooses. Besides, one could argue that existing in everywhen is the only he could do this. I assume that God, knowing what he is doing, times things with great precision, and undertakes every action, even seemingly meaningless or seemingly obvious ones, with multiple reasons to attain a maximum effect.

[Acriku]

As to the free will dilemma, Wolfwiz, the fact that God knows what happens due to his omniscience can only mean that there is only one way things will go down, which in itself leads to predestination concepts. If there is only one way things will go down, then we in reality have only one choice in each decision we make, which is not free will.

God, on the other hand, feels what he felt yesterday. He feels what he is feeling for our present moments, what we call now. And he feels what he will feel in the future. He exists at all times, at all places, he is omnipresent; everywhen. And one can only be truly omniscient (have perfect knowledge of everything) by existing everywhere at every time.

So you agree that time does not pass in his realm?

[Wolf]

Well, first I'd like you to explain to me how God's knowing of how things will go down leads to our not having free will. I'm still shaky, but I'll make a preemptive stab at it. Warning, this may be changed later. I maintain that, regardless of anyone's knowledge of our futures, human beings still are incapable of perceiving their lives as anything other than free choices. The fact that God knows how things will go down does not change the fact that in the present moment, human beings perceive their lives as choices, and can just as easily make one over another. To be blunt, it doesn't really matter, now, does it?

Secondly, I don't see why time would have to pass if God exists concsiously in every single moment in all of universal history. I think you need to separate the passage of time from man's perspective and from God's perspective. I mean, in a sense, time no longer passes for Him, because God's conscious experience of the universe extends into an infinite future that has not happened. He is everywhen. Time may pass for us. But God has already experienced and is experiencing the futures that we are just beginning to experience.

[Acriku]

I'll get to the free will part later, but I'd like to reply to your time part. When you say God exists in every single moment in all of history, you're suggesting he's in the same realm as we are. I was under the impression it was the popular belief that God was not in this universe, but in a realm outside of the universe, outside of time. Is this not your belief?

[Wolf]

I feel that defining alternate universes or dimensions just gets a little corny. Of course, that could be true, I have no way of knowing for sure, but I prefer to stay away from that. It feels too much like a cop-out. Let my brain work a little.

No, God exists here, now. But, His consciousness also exists everywhere. Everywhen. In all periods of time, past and present and future. It is the only way his omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence can be reconciled with each other.

And until we've at least got the definition coherent, its hard to debate free will.

[sneezer3]

As to the free will dilemma, Wolfwiz, the fact that God knows what happens due to his omniscience can only mean that there is only one way things will go down, which in itself leads to predestination concepts. If there is only one way things will go down, then we in reality have only one choice in each decision we make, which is not free will.

It does not mean its predefined. It only means he knows the outcome. What makes you think it is pre-defined?

God existing outside of time, sees time like a string. This don't mean its predefined. It only means God knows the outcome of the free will. Just like if you could see in the future for example. I don't know what makes you think time has something to do with free will. But it don't.

[Acriku]

I see what you mean Wolfwiz.

Sneezer, because he knows all branches of events from anything that could occur, which is what somebody said earlier, his very act of creating the Earth in that manner and his interferences gives him some if not most responsibility as to what occurs. In essence, he did predestine the events that occurred. In my opinion, anyway.

Also, the time dilemma and free will dilemma were two different arguments going on at the same time.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Wolfwiz i dont think saying that God is a higher dimensional being is really a copout.... its just a way to explain things...

Sort of like the story of Flatland... or the book titled "On the 4th Dimension"

Or heck... take sci-fi for example... when Han Solo opens up hyperspace to travel instantaneously.... it may be

[Wolf]

Gunwounds, that's actually an excellent and insightful analogy. I have never thought of that before.

Now, considering that God is infinitely dimensional, when compared to a 3-D world, he truly would be omnipotent. Power beyond the scope of the imagination. Look at what your 3-D hand did to the 2-D man.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Gunwounds, that's actually an excellent and insightful analogy. I have never thought of that before.

Now, considering that God is infinitely dimensional, when compared to a 3-D world, he truly would be omnipotent. Power beyond the scope of the imagination. Look at what your 3-D hand did to the 2-D man.

Yes and one other observation....

It kind of makes sense for God