Why must Jesus be a white man?

[GUNWOUNDS]

That would mean that every event, every minute detail of life, from ant fights to deaths, has a designed purpose.

[Wolf]

Acriku, your responses to my post were just as, if not more, inflammatory than mine. If what I said is to be considered a rant, then you really have to think about yourself, buddy. To be honest, and I'm serious here, what I said was not motivated by spite or anything of that sort, and was essentially my thinking out loud. When I mentioned that any test can be designed to automatically "prove" what it seeks to prove, I was referring to a concept I learned in a psychology class called confirmation bias. And I believe I said that this may or may not have held true with the test itself. I am seriously offended by this, and what makes it even worse is knowing that there isn't the slightest chance you'll even doubt whether your jumping-the-gun was in the right. In fact, you'll probably accuse me of being exactly what I accuse you of being in an effort to avoid taking responsibility for your own actions.

Gahaoshfijshdgkjsnkjadzdnfhncvb

[GUNWOUNDS]

Gahaoshfijshdgkjsnkjadzdnfhncvb

heheh

[Wolf]

Well, I was angry -- I'm human after all, what would you do if you felt unduly chastised?

But, it doesn't mean I'm going to abandon my attempts at affording people the respect they deserve -- and if I've done anything other than that, I do sincerely apologize.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Well, I was angry -- I'm human after all, what would you do if you felt unduly chastised?

oh i agree... i was just asking acriku why he did that...  because Wolfwiz has a past history of not ranting and being cool-headed... so seeing Acriku nail Wolfwiz like that kinda surprised me.

[Wolf]

Well, I appreciate your help, Gunwounds. But, I think Acriku probably misunderstood what I was trying to say. Sometimes I do not articulate things as well as I should.

Anyway, back on topic? Whatever that was?

[GUNWOUNDS]

i think this topic has been cooked like a  "well done" steak

[sneezer3]

i think this topic has been cooked like a

[SurlyPIG]

Well i disagree ...  everything happens for a reason... from the earthworms that loosen and oxygenate the soil to Epic battles fought in World War II.

If you reached that perception with no preconceived persuasion then I will eat my hat.

Free Will?..... everyone will die and have their life laid out before others....  I can go pick up a book about George Washington and read about his life from birth to death.  I can read about every decision he ever made.  Does that mean his decisions were any less FREE?

    I basically have the same knowledge NOW about George Washington's actions and FATE as God does right now.... only God knew it first... are you getting it yet?

Have you ever seen The Matrix Revolutions, Gunwounds?  Have you ever been climbing? (these aren't loaded questions and I am being serious)

If you are comparing God to a serial killer because he made our bodies mortal then you got some issues.....

Why, exactly?  If you believe in divine intervention and a god with infinite knowledge and perception, then everything that happens to every person in this world, including their death, is directly set up by God.

.....and if my wife died from a brain tumour it would be very upsetting but it would mean her time has come and i would not be so childish as to "hate" God for it or call him a serial killer..... unless you believe everyone has the "right" to live to 100 or something? .......where do you draw the line Ace?...... God saves you from brain cancer, then he saves you from a heart attack, then from liver failure, then from kidney failure, what do you want him to make you live forever Ace?

What makes it her time?  And, well, he would be saving me from a death he brought upon me in the first place, and a God that second-guesses itself doesn't make a lot of sense.  Asking me if I question why people die at all is a little too simplistic.  It's not life span that I question, given a God you describe it's this life entirely!  What is the point of this temporary finite existence in linear time if the universe was created with knowledge of everything its habitants would do in it?  Once you answer my questions above I'll explain this in a little more depth.

Can they resuscitate people after they have been dead for 3 days or more ?

Not at this point in medical science.  What is the point of this question?

Well get use to it ..... in any conversation we have expect me to assume it exists.....and i corrected your above statement for you because you obviously didnt pay attention to me earlier when i said that if a miracle happened .... it could not possibly happen for EVERYONE in EVERY time period to witness and validate it....

That's just a bad way to think.  If I look at the world with the assumption that all human action is part of a massive conspiracy and then justify my belief based on that assumption, you'd probably laugh at me and think I was daft.

And alleged past miracles are not in question as they are hearsay and pointless to argue either way.  We're (or at least I am) talking about whether or not miracles still occur.

you could drop a million people out of airplanes and maybe one will hit a bail of hay..... but you cant drop YOURSELF out of a plane a million times.....thats what makes it meaningful to the person who survived

Meaningful, certainly.  But when 999,999 other people went splat, calling your experience a miracle is silly.  It is merely the satisfaction of a statistical condition.

However i understand your point about keeping miracles defined as only supernatural events  however i think that God can accomplish things through natural means without having to be *flashy* and make a supernatural event about it.

Miracle (n): an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs

I'm not sure that flashiness has anything to do with it.

my point is that God doesnt have to defy nature when he wants to make a point....

in my opinion he can

1.) Do something supernaturally to make a point

2.) Do something with astronomical odds or insane improbability to make a point.

Why does God still make points?  As for the rest, i tend to agree, but only because those astronomical odds and the exceptions to such odds would be a product of God's design.

[Wolf]

You guys are missing a big piece of the puzzle. If God existed in the present moment, and was omniscient, then yes, we would have no free will. The problem is that no, God does not exist like we do; living from conscious moment to conscious moment. The fact that God knows everything doesn't make our decisions any less free for us -- by virtue of the fact that we havn't made them yet. To God, it is as if everything has already happened -- Frank Herbert illustrated this with Paul Atreides; Paul was living his life in the present moment, but knew everything that could possibly happen in advance. It felt as if he had no free will. However, God does not suffer from living in the present moment (if he was restricted by the limitations of time, he would not be omnipresent. He exists everywhen). We, on the other hand, do exist in the present moment. And, thus, to us, since all of our choices have yet to be made, we have free will with regard to those choices. It doesn't matter.

Think about it like this. You have the choice to respond to my post or not to. God knows the choice you're going to make. But you don't. In fact, you know that if you decide, and suddenly change your mind, God would have known that to. But you didn't know it. Right know, you, personally, have no idea exactly, 100% what you will choose. That's free will. And we have it by not knowing everything, and by living only in the present moment.

Where you people got the idea that God knowing everything necessitated a lack of free will, I will never understand. Too much neo-sci-fi stuff, stick to the classics.

[GUNWOUNDS]

i agree... God being omniscient doesnt take away my free will... because of the fact that *I* am not omniscient.

Wolfwiz you hit it right on the head when you said

Right know, you, personally, have no idea exactly, 100% what you will choose. That's free will. And we have it by not knowing everything, and by living only in the present moment.

exactly!...

the problem is that we all have 20/20 hindsight and can look back on the decisions we made and say that it was our destiny... but we forget that a choice had to be made.  Its like some people cant deal with the reality that there is a past tense.

[Ninja_Sher]

Well can not Almighty be spectator for the life time of earth and then a punisher and also a reward giver when armageddon is finished?

[Wolf]

Sure, why not? But that doesn't take away free will. If God is a spectator in life, then we have free will in life. If God judges us for the choices we made in life, so what? We still had the free will to make choices that had to be judged.

God can only judge us for what we did, and God could only perfectly judge us if he knew everything, that is, he is omniscient. However, since his knowing everything does not necessitate a lack of free will (since God does not live in the present moment, and what matters is whether or not we know everything), we can still make choices. Those choices allow us to be judged. In fact, the whole concept of judgment is dependant upon free will and choice.

[Acriku]

You guys are missing a big piece of the puzzle. If God existed in the present moment, and was omniscient, then yes, we would have no free will. The problem is that no, God does not exist like we do;

Is this an assumption or a biblically supported fact?

The fact that God knows everything doesn't make our decisions any less free for us -- by virtue of the fact that we havn't made them yet.

So in other words, we don't have free will, but we don't know that.

To God, it is as if everything has already happened -- Frank Herbert illustrated this with Paul Atreides; Paul was living his life in the present moment, but knew everything that could possibly happen in advance. It felt as if he had no free will.

Let me ask you this: does time pass in God's realm? In other words, is God outside of time?

However, God does not suffer from living in the present moment (if he was restricted by the limitations of time, he would not be omnipresent. He exists everywhen). We, on the other hand, do exist in the present moment. And, thus, to us, since all of our choices have yet to be made, we have free will with regard to those choices. It doesn't matter.

Now this is interesting, because God has directly interfered with events on the Earth, from talking to Abraham or Noah, to destroying Sodom and Gomorrah. Thus, he had to have experienced that presently, and would have to have lived in the present moment, if not just for those moments where he directly interfered. So, how does he go from seeing all time at once to venturing across the imaginary line to present time? How is that even possible?

Think about it like this. You have the choice to respond to my post or not to. God knows the choice you're going to make. But you don't. In fact, you know that if you decide, and suddenly change your mind, God would have known that to. But you didn't know it. Right know, you, personally, have no idea exactly, 100% what you will choose. That's free will. And we have it by not knowing everything, and by living only in the present moment.

Exactly like I said before, we don't have free will, but we don't know we don't have free will.

Where you people got the idea that God knowing everything necessitated a lack of free will, I will never understand. Too much neo-sci-fi stuff, stick to the classics.

When God knows what I'm going to do tomorrow when he began to create the universe, and I myself have not done it yet, it's obvious that I have no free will to stray from what I am going to do. Is that more understandable?

[GUNWOUNDS]

If you reached that perception with no preconceived persuasion then I will eat my hat.

[Acriku]

Calling yourself older does not give any more credit to your statements GUNWOUNDS.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Calling yourself older does not give any more credit to your statements GUNWOUNDS.

i guess you missed my point entirely.... i did not say it was my age that made my perception more

[GUNWOUNDS]

Have you ever seen The Matrix Revolutions, Gunwounds?

[GUNWOUNDS]

Is this an assumption or a biblically supported fact?

Please lets avoid playing ring around the rosies

Let me ask you this: does time pass in God's realm? In other words, is God outside of time?

I think Eternal means that time does not pass

Now this is interesting, because God has directly interfered with events on the Earth, from talking to Abraham or Noah, to destroying Sodom and Gomorrah. Thus, he had to have experienced that presently, and would have to have lived in the present moment, if not just for those moments where he directly interfered. So, how does he go from seeing all time at once to venturing across the imaginary line to present time? How is that even possible?

Well even before Noah and Abraham God  had an open relationship with Adam and Eve.... so obvious its not really "interfering" ..... as he intended to interact with us originally.... and you are asking how does he interact with earth?..........Go pick up a book called "On the 4th Dimension" it clearly illustrates how a higher dimensional being could interact with a lower dimensional being.

When God knows what I'm going to do tomorrow when he began to create the universe, and I myself have not done it yet, it's obvious that I have no free will to stray from what I am going to do. Is that more understandable?

Go watch the movie called Minority Report with Tom Cruise... it was foretold that he would kill a man at a certain time and he denied it.. although once he met the guy he became so enraged and realized why the pre-cog said he was going to kill the man.... however he controlled himself and did not murder the man even as his watch alarm went off telling him it was the time.... he changed his destiny......

Is this possible in the real world?.... well we dont have prophets or pre-cogs telling us our own personal futures.... however.... we are intelligent beings and are able to visualize ourselves doing wrong and are able to visualize ourselves going to hell.... and thus right now this very moment we have the opportunity to do with our life as we wish.  We have the sentient capacity to visualize ourselves following the good path or the bad path... and from that we can choose which way we want to go.

However there is such a thing as past tense.... when i pick up a book about someone in the past and look at their life from birth to death... am i not like God? Am i not able to view their entire life?.... and in my opinion... being able to see all their decisions laid out before me does not make them any less free.

[Acriku]

i guess you missed my point entirely.... i did not say it was my age that made my perception more  of "my own"

i said it WAS THE EXTRA TIME OF INDEPENDANCE that made it so.  I didnt say age had anything to do with it.  Me living in independance for 9 years has let me develop a perception that is more of my own than some kid who still has to live with his mom.

you are starting to lack in your reading comprehension acrkiu... your better than that.

............

I live with my mom and she's a good Christian, and my dad is is a good Jew, and religion is never discussed under their roof. So tell me how does being independent from your parents longer make your perception your own, considering your not independent from your wife, your friends, and co-workers? ACE might never talk to his mom, she might be a drunk who stays in her room every night, no offense ACE. In which case, you would be wrong. You have no idea, so stop assuming and stick to the matters that are relevant.

[GUNWOUNDS]

I live with my mom and she's a good Christian, and my dad is is a good Jew, and religion is never discussed under their roof. So tell me how does being independent from your parents longer make your perception your own, considering your not independent from your wife, your friends, and co-workers? ACE might never talk to his mom, she might be a drunk who stays in her room every night, no offense ACE. In which case, you would be wrong. You have no idea, so stop assuming and stick to the matters that are relevant.

THE matter is relevant.......

...i think that most people DO interact with their mothers/fathers and that their mothers/fathers do influence their beliefs/behaviours

dont try to weasel out of it.

though your mother is a christian and your father is a jew dont tell me that has had no influence in your life... they dont need to talk to you about it.... actions speak louder than words... and i am sure you have observed them.....

Also i was not comparing myself to ace like some sort of "pissing contest"

[Acriku]

Please lets avoid playing ring around the rosies

That was a serious question. If people keep assuming things outside of their bible, then they are possibly discussing a different god. In which case I would need clarification in case I assume something that is wrong.

I think Eternal means that time does not pass

Ay, there's the rub. Let me ask you this: is it possible to move from a realm that has no time, to a realm that has time? I don't think that it is. Moving requires a before and an after, which requires time, something that is lacking in God's realm. Also, it would then invalidate God's ability to talk to Adam and Eve, Abraham, or Noah. Now, if we are to assume that this happened, since it is in the Bible, there must be time in God's realm.

Is this possible in the real world?.... well we dont have prophets or pre-cogs telling us our own personal futures.... however.... we are intelligent beings and are able to visualize ourselves doing wrong and are able to visualize ourselves going to hell.... and thus right now this very moment we have the opportunity to do with our life as we wish.  We have the sentient capacity to visualize ourselves following the good path or the bad path... and from that we can choose which way we want to go.

So you think. For all you know, God set it out to make you think about hell, and falsely think that you have free will. And since he knows everything that happens, and has known forever, he did just that.

However there is such a thing as past tense.... when i pick up a book about someone in the past and look at their life from birth to death... am i not like God? Am i not able to view their entire life?.... and in my opinion... being able to see all their decisions laid out before me does not make them any less free.

You're looking at the book from their future. Look at it from their past.

[Acriku]

...i think that most people DO interact with their mothers/fathers and that their mothers/fathers do influence their beliefs/behaviours

You think. You even think most, not all. Therefore, it is faulty to assume ACE does.

though your mother is a christian and your father is a jew dont tell me that has had no influence in your life... they dont need to talk to you about it.... actions speak louder than words... and i am sure you have observed them.....

You can tickle the possibilities all you like, but you won't get anywhere.

I was only talking about MY OWN perception and that i feel my own perception was valid in my opinion because i have had 9 years of real independance to sort it out....

But that's the thing, 9 years of "real independence" doesn't validate any opinion. You may need 10 years to really sort it out, you may need 25. You may just be too simplistic to sort it out at all.

meaning you have matured more in the past two years and that you have been able to learn more and think about your beliefs a bit more thouroughly.... so time has everything to do with it....

Dont try to  deny it.....

Not everybody can mature and learn from their past mistakes. It's a skill like any other.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Ay, there's the rub. Let me ask you this: is it possible to move from a realm that has no time, to a realm that has time? I don't think that it is. Moving requires a before and an after, which requires time, something that is lacking in God's realm. Also, it would then invalidate God's ability to talk to Adam and Eve, Abraham, or Noah. Now, if we are to assume that this happened, since it is in the Bible, there must be time in God's realm.

No there is no time in God's realm......

Here... think of it like this..... this universe and time continuum that we exist in is like a comic book to God.

[GUNWOUNDS]

But that's the thing, 9 years of "real independence" doesn't validate any opinion. You may need 10 years to really sort it out, you may need 25. You may just be too simplistic to sort it out at all.

Not everybody can mature and learn from their past mistakes. It's a skill like any other.

So you are stating that YOU (acriku) are able to learn and mature from your past mistakes?.... then you are implying that one is able to be conscious of whether or not they are progressing thru time?... Since you said you YOURSELF have matured and learned more in the past two years......