Beheading of Berg

[Wolf]

Because you, also, are human. Our collective failure is due to the failure of each and every individual who tried to do otherwise and failed, who did not try at all, or purposefully failed. Our failure is the collective failure of each and every individual, including yourself. When you say "either way I come out successful", you mean to say, "either way, I come out a failure." If you deem "success" as failure, on the other hand, then those who wish to better humanity have no business dealing with you. If we fail, you fail. Because you are one of us.

[Sardauker-Kirov]

The arabs are still living in the stone age. I wouldn't be suprised if the medieval European peasants tortured the enemy to death that brutally.

He will be avenged, that's for sure. The arabs think that they can intimidate the people with screaming and performing a set of horrifying executions on video.

[TMA_1]

I couldnt watch it, it would rip me up inside. I have seen a death before on tv. It was relatively mild compared to a beheading, a woman getting shot in the head cleanly. Still though that ruined my day, and well not for the fact that it made me want to throw up, but because it really hits home to you that this was a real person. It puts things into perspective. I have disliked many people in my life, and have wanted revenge on people, but it really puts a value on life, even those you dont like when you understand the grizzly reality of death. I could never wish this kind of death on anybody, and I am thinking of as many people I know in history, and in the present.

I wont watch this one because if that one scene of a muslim woman getting shot ripped me up, I dont know what this would do. Just realizing that it is there to download for people gives me a weird feeling of vertigo, like the feeling you get when you stand near a cliff edge. its just too sick and too horrible.

It would hurt too much to watch it. Not only because it would make me feel bad, but because it would just make me feel horrible for the bergs family.

dont know why I posted, even posting about it makes me feel uneasy. Death is natural, and is apart of life but I dont think it is healthy to have the option of seeing soemthing like that whenever you want for as long as you want. THough you do have your right to I guess.

[Dante]

Because you, also, are human. Our collective failure is due to the failure of each and every individual who tried to do otherwise and failed, who did not try at all, or purposefully failed. Our failure is the collective failure of each and every individual, including yourself. When you say "either way I come out successful", you mean to say, "either way, I come out a failure." If you deem "success" as failure, on the other hand, then those who wish to better humanity have no business dealing with you. If we fail, you fail. Because you are one of us.

If you fail, and the world remains a terrible place, then I come out successful because I am correct. If you succeed, and the world becomes a better place, then I am successful because I automatically benefit. That's the great thing about pessemism, you can't lose. And I realise that I'm part of the problem, which just makes it even less likely that I could change anything.

dont know why I posted, even posting about it makes me feel uneasy. Death is natural, and is apart of life but I dont think it is healthy to have the option of seeing soemthing like that whenever you want for as long as you want. THough you do have your right to I guess.

I think maybe it might be beneficial, in the long term. Death is going to happen, and it's not always quiet. Might as well get used to it. The concept isn't nice, but it might work.

[Wolf]

Dust, I think that the failure of humanity overrides any gain to be gotten from "being right". The failure of humanity is an overriding failure. You do not win, either way. Just as the failure of war is an overriding failure in some cases; as the victor, too, loses so many lives, so many resources, so many brilliant minds that its victory is as bitter as defeat. I'm trying to pound into your head, Dust, that "being right" is even less than a phyrric victory when compared against the overwhelming failure of humanity, of which you are part. Divorce yourself from mankind, and maybe you could say what you're saying.

[exatreide]

On the contrary, we've gotten worse. What other animal has wars, destroys it's enviroment, has warheads and nuclear weapons, fights over things so petty as religion? The human race is possibly the worst thing that has ever happened to this planet. This is reality. I accept it.

Squrils do....Their mean little creatures.

[Dante]

Divorce yourself from mankind, and maybe you could say what you're saying.

I try... I try very hard...

Squrils do....Their mean little creatures.

Grey Squirrels maybe. Red ones are small and cute and pacifist.  ;)

[nampigai]

if you say that man is evil, Dust, I have a hard time seeing you divorcing from mankind. In my eyes some of the strange views, are what's wrong with people. You are absolutely right that as long as there's people like you in this world it will never be a better place to live in.

and as for the cute little red Squirrels, I hate to shatter you illusion, but they live of eggs and small birds, I don't know why Ex even brought up the subject, if it was a way to be fun I think this thread is the wrong one to do it in.

[Dante]

There's never a wrong place for fun. Except maybe funerals, and this is not a funeral. Besides, the point was that red squirrels don't have wars of nuclear strikes. Want to shatter that illusion?

if you say that man is evil, Dust, I have a hard time seeing you divorcing from mankind. In my eyes some of the strange views, are what's wrong with people. You are absolutely right that as long as there's people like you in this world it will never be a better place to live in.

You are working under a delusion that all of mankind must conform to a given image of empathy and care. Fact is that the vast majority do not, and I am one of them. The difference is that I am one of the few people who will admit it. I'm not evil, there's no such thing as evil. I'm just different.

[nampigai]

that doesn't change a thing about my post, again I say as long as we have people you to spread bad mood with pessemistic attitude, we will have a hard time to change this world, luckely we aren't all like you. You are the dark clouds that will be spread when the sun shines through.

[Cyborg]

Other people might have other values in life.

Good and evil for you might be different for others.

That is why we cannot have a world of "all good"

[Wolf]

I'm not evil, there's no such thing as evil. I'm just different.

If only you were at Nuremberg, Dust. You could have gotten the Nazis off the hook.

Furthermore, we don't need 100% of humanity to decide what's "good" and "bad". In fact, close to 100% already agrees on these things. Many countries "recognize" the good of democracy and freedom, yet do not subscribe to them. At this point in time, humanity has reached a general consensus that democracy is "good". Therefore, our work should be based on such fact until it changes. In my mind, it is not relativistic morals that cancels out the possibility of an absolute good, it is change that does it.

[lowzeewee]

Something you guys might want to know.

15 Anomalies Surrounding

Death Of Nick Berg

What Really Happened.com Letters

5-14-4

(Warning: Parts of the following discussion contain rather sickening references.)

Arab linguists have said the man posing as the Jordanian Zaraqawi did not speak with a Jordanian dialect. Others have suggested the man reading the written statement may not have been a native speaker of Arabic.

Zaraqawi was missing one leg and had been outfitted with an artificial leg that did not fit or function properly. He was unable to walk or stand normally with his ill-fitting limb. No man in the group showed evidence of such an infirmity.

Numerous indigenous sources have said Zaraqawi was killed by a US helicopter attack months ago when he was unable to move quickly enough to escape the targeted house. While others managed to exit the house in time to survive, he died in the collapsed building.

As any surgeon will testify, the alleged beheading was a fake. A beheading would result in a tremendous amount of spurting blood. There would have been blood everywhere had an actual beheading taken place. When the executioner holds up Berg's head immediately following what is represented as an actual decapitation of a living person, there is no significant blood flow from the neck or blood splatters showing anywhere on the executioner. Furthermore, the cut was simply too neat to have been done crudely and with such amazing speed by a man wielding a knife. Anybody who has ever carved a turkey knows there is something wrong with the supposed beheading. The suspended head looks more like Berg had been neatly beheaded by a guillotine.

The orange jumpsuit was standard US military issue to men in custody. It is unlikely Berg would have continuing wearing a US custodial uniform if he had been released by the military as they claim. The fact he was still wearing the suit is both anomalous and suggestive. One is forced to speculate as to whether there was an immediate transfer of Berg from the US military to unknown persons, thusly preventing Berg from discarding his US prison garb.

Several of the men in the film were fat by Iraqi standards. If they were Feyadeen or mujahadeen, they probably have been living underground since the first days of the occupation. Tens of thousands of Iraqis have been shown on news stories as they have marched and demonstrated. One would be hard pressed to point out a single fat man among these thousands.

Some men had what can only be described as pasty-white hands. Once again, one would be hard pressed to find Arab men with pasty-white hands.

The lack of spurting blood suggests Berg was already dead at the time of the alleged decapitation. It is possible Berg's dead body was displayed with his head already partially or totally severed. In any case, he almost certainly was killed before the staged beheading. If so, it suggests the captors had no stomach for an actual beheading of a living person, and they opted to fulfill their assignment quietly and with the least amount of gore.

The scream that is heard has been interpreted as a woman's scream by many viewers. Videotape cognoscenti have further said the scream was amateurishly added to the tape.

The U.S. government translation of one statement made on the film is: "Does al Qaeda need any further excuses?" This is a falsification. The actual statement urged fellow insurgents to get off their hind ends and do something. One assumes the translator being used by the US military is a native speaker of Arabic, so this cannot be explained as an innocent flub. This suggests the US government wanted to inject an alleged al- Qaeda group into the murder of Nick Berg.

Iraqis who have seen the videotape on Arabic news broadcasts are universally saying the men in the film are not Iraqis. Are they saying this partly because the speaker does not employ an Iraqi dialect? Where does their certainty come from?

Firearms experts have stated the AK-47 carried by one man was a "Gilal." This actually is an Israeli-made weapon that improves on the famous AK- 47. Feyadeen and other insurgents almost universally use AK-47s.

The man in the videotape who is purported to be Zarqawi is wearing a gold ring. This is absolutely proscribed by Islamic law.

The US military has stated that Berg was never in US custody and that he had been in custody of the Iraqi police. The Iraqi police adamantly deny he was ever in their custody. On April 1, an e-mail from Beth A. Payne, the U.S. consular officer in Iraq, was sent to the family of Nick Berg. It stated that Ms. Payne had located Nick, and he was currently in custody of the US military. We have to conclude that either the email was bogus or the US military has been lying.

The chair that Berg was seated in during the filming was a standard issue military chair of the exact same kind as seen in a color photo taken at the Abu Ghraib Prison. The chances a terrorist cell would be using this same chair are minimal at best

[GUNWOUNDS]

HOLY CANOLIS......... THE WHOLE THING WAS FAKE?

[lowzeewee]

Possibly. But how could he have had mouth synching[he said "My name is Nick Berg"] if he was dead?Or was there? O_o

[Cyborg]

I was actually reacting to that.

I wrote earlier that I noticed he didn't make any sound at all during the whole video. Also during the decapitation the blood spurts coming from heartbeats were not present.

Anyway, it doesn't change the fact that he had been killed somehow...

[Dante]

True. Though if it's a fake it begs the question of what importance the video is.

If only you were at Nuremberg, Dust. You could have gotten the Nazis off the hook.

Could have done, but wouldn't have done. I have no love of racists.

Furthermore, we don't need 100% of humanity to decide what's "good" and "bad". In fact, close to 100% already agrees on these things. Many countries "recognize" the good of democracy and freedom, yet do not subscribe to them. At this point in time, humanity has reached a general consensus that democracy is "good". Therefore, our work should be based on such fact until it changes. In my mind, it is not relativistic morals that cancels out the possibility of an absolute good, it is change that does it.

Either way, there is no absolute. Nothing solid to work from. A temporary situation at best.

that doesn't change a thing about my post, again I say as long as we have people you to spread bad mood with pessemistic attitude, we will have a hard time to change this world, luckely we aren't all like you. You are the dark clouds that will be spread when the sun shines through.

If there weren't people like me around, what would make you so special? There can be no light without darkness. If you get rid of me then you get rid of everything that defines who you are, because there would be nothing to compare it to.

With that in mind, you will never get rid of people like me. When the sun shines you'll just find that there'll be something else we point out the errors in.

The choice is to be either happy or correct. Optimists are happy, pessemists are correct.

[lowzeewee]

I was actually reacting to that.

I wrote earlier that I noticed he didn't make any sound at all during the whole video. Also during the decapitation the blood spurts coming from heartbeats were not present.

Anyway, it doesn't change the fact that he had been killed somehow...

But at least he was possibly killed in a less inhumane manner but videotaping him being decapitated is still inhumane, regardless of whether he was already dead.

Also, he seemed very white, like as if he had already been killed, cleaned and made to look like he was alive, props prepared and during those stages, he was already started to...err...decompose?[Not sure if you call it decomposition yet, pls correct me]

[Dante]

White would be blood loss... and cleanup afterwards? He might have started to decompose but it's unlikely since very few people would want to be anywhere near a rotting corpse. Of course they might have frozen him for a bit (also explaing pallor) but this again is unlikely because there was no real reason for them to do so, and it would make removing a head much much harder.

[lowzeewee]

Yeah, blood loss. I don't think they bother to freeze it...maybe they slashed his stomach and there was lots of blood lost and he died and they needed to clean it up to make it seem that he is still alive.

[Cyborg]

Hoever, cutting up an already dead person in front of a camera is extremely bad.

[lowzeewee]

Scientific operation/autopsy documentary ::)

[Wolf]

I would say that that's a little different than what they did, Lowzeewee.

Frozen? Doubt it. We would have heard that icy-crunch sound, you know, the kind when ice cream has kind have gone to that crystalline stage and you gotta hack at it to get it out of the container.

Optimists are happy, pessimists are correct. I'm not so sure about that; does not the existence of happiness and/or "good things" sort of prove that pessimists are actually incorrect in an absolute sense? Therefore making both philosophies, optimisim and pessimism, equally valid?

[Cyborg]

I believe your statement is false.

Neither pessimists nor optimists are especially right or wrong.

[Wolf]

Therefore, making them equally valid philosophies. Or, was it not my statement you were referring to, Cyborg?