God, Omnipotence, Omniscience, and Free Will

[Dante]

Me too. Cause and effect, that's all it is.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Anathema keeps bringing up the example of God having regretted making Saul a King.

Isnt it possible that God knew that Saul would turn out in that way , but was just giving him the "benefit of the doubt"

that wouldnt violate free will.... thats like putting a piece of candy on the coffee table within reach of your child.... you know he most likely will take it .... but you can give him the benefit of the doubt.

[Caid Ivik]

Me too. Cause and effect, that's all it is.

Apage, hegelian!  ;D

[Wolf]

What does that mean?

[Dante]

Anathema keeps bringing up the example of God having regretted making Saul a King.

Isnt it possible that God knew that Saul would turn out in that way , but was just giving him the "benefit of the doubt"

that wouldnt violate free will.... thats like putting a piece of candy on the coffee table within reach of your child.... you know he most likely will take it .... but you can give him the benefit of the doubt.

But god should have known what the outcome of giving the benefit of the doubt to him would be...

Apage, hegelian!  ;D

?

[Caid Ivik]

You don't know Hegel? Creator of, to use a little matrixism, the blue one?

[Dante]

Common sense realism?

[nemafakei]

"Isnt it possible that God knew that Saul would turn out in that way , but was just giving him the "benefit of the doubt""

What doubt is there? Are you saying that god doesn't know what he'll do and is therefore not omniscient?

"that wouldnt violate free will.... thats like putting a piece of candy on the coffee table within reach of your child.... you know he most likely will take it .... but you can give him the benefit of the doubt"

But when, as an omnipotent being, you have created the child and designed is such that you know what it will do with the candy - while having the option of making it such that it will resist the temptation, you have chosen to make the child greedy.

[GUNWOUNDS]

i think we need to step back for a minute and answer a question....

Does being God of the universe mean that you bear all responsibility for everything?

Its like if my kid is caught stealing candy in a store..... you are saying that because my sperm was used to create him.... i am responsible for the theft.... and not only that but my great great grandfather is responsible since his DNA was responsible for my existence....

And because God created my great great grandfather..... he must be ultimately responsible for the theft.... and so he must condone stealing...

Passing the blame this far back doesnt seem right.

Why cannot God create a world with free will ... allow it to do what it wants to do .... and let the sentient beings be responsible for their own doings without it having to be thrown back onto him.

[nemafakei]

"Its like if my kid is caught stealing candy in a store..... you are saying that because my sperm was used to create him.... i am responsible for the theft"

You may be partly responsible for failing to bring the child up properly, but for some children, it's impossible to stop them thieving, so if you've done what can be expected of a parent, you are not to blame.

Just so must god do what he can as an omnipotent creator to make us properly - but the difference is that "what he can" is anything and everything. That is, while you as a parent are only able to discourage, not prevent your children from stealing, he, as an omniopotent, omniscient creator is not only able to discourage and prevent, but also chooses whether or not we do this at creation by the way in which he creates the universe, since he is aware of the consequences of every possible configuration.

[GUNWOUNDS]

"Its like if my kid is caught stealing candy in a store..... you are saying that because my sperm was used to create him.... i am responsible for the theft"

You may be partly responsible for failing to bring the child up properly, but for some children, it's impossible to stop them thieving, so if you've done what can be expected of a parent, you are not to blame.

Just so must god do what he can as an omnipotent creator to make us properly - but the difference is that "what he can" is anything and everything. That is, while you as a parent are only able to discourage, not prevent your children from stealing, he, as an omniopotent, omniscient creator is not only able to discourage and prevent, but also chooses whether or not we do this at creation by the way in which he creates the universe, since he is aware of the consequences of every possible configuration.

what if a perfect configuration doesnt exist.....

think about that....

[Dante]

In which case god is not all powerful because it cannot create a perfect configuration. The whole point of being all powerful is that a being can bring anything into existance.

[Caid Ivik]

Why should be the world perfect? If everything would be in our will, why should we live?

[Dante]

Good question. Why should we be here if the world is perfect or not? Why should a divine creature have any need for us?

[GUNWOUNDS]

In which case god is not all powerful because it cannot create a perfect configuration. The whole point of being all powerful is that a being can bring anything into existance.

You are correct.....

god is all powerful and he can make a perfect configuration....

an idea just struck me....

what if the perfect configuration is the world that Revelations describes after Armageddon is all over...

you know it talks about how finally all evil will be conquered and all the righteous will live in unity in a utopia...

well what if that IS the perfect configuration and that all of the universe as we know it to be now is just that perfect universe forming...

you see,like Nema said, everything would be instantaneous to God.... so to God the universe is perfect ... but only he can see it because he is eternal and can see the future. We cannot see it because we are bound by time.

Think of us as the mixing bowl.... and the perfect universe as the final bread product...

we think of the universe as being "finished" when in reality it might not be.... who are we to assume God is done?...

and perhaps he is done ... but because we cannot see the future we cannot see the finished perfect product.

[nemafakei]

But if God is omnipotent, then wy do we have to go through this stage at all?

[TMA_1]

because we are not omnipotent. it is really that simple.lol

[Wolf]

TMA, Captain obvious.

[nemafakei]

Pardon?

I'll re-explain: Why does god need to put us through the pre-perfect stage instead of just setting us going at that point? Nothing to do with his power.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Pardon?

I'll re-explain: Why does god need to put us through the pre-perfect stage instead of just setting us going at that point? Nothing to do with his power.

1.) To make us earn it

2.) To show us what an imperfect world is like so that we will appreciate the perfect one.

3.) because in corinthians it says "do ye not know we shall judge the angels?"

[Anathema]

I used the Saul example because that's the only part I know of where the bible explicitly says God regrets one of his decisions. If the moment he made Saul king He knew Saul would disobey him yet made him king anyway, why would he have regrets?

If he can predict even our own thoughts and emotions, we'd be like simple AI's. There would be no free will because everything, every thought is predetermined. Do any of you think a computer program has a free will?

Plus, why would he create a universe with perfectly predictable creatures (wich is in contradiction with the bible, btw)?

It would make more sense that he created creatures he can't predict, that he voluntarily blinds himself of thoughts that people haven't thought of yet. Being omnipotent, he could do that right?

[GUNWOUNDS]

I used the Saul example because that's the only part I know of where the bible explicitly says God regrets one of his decisions. If the moment he made Saul king He knew Saul would disobey him yet made him king anyway, why would he have regrets?

If he can predict even our own thoughts and emotions, we'd be like simple AI's. There would be no free will because everything, every thought is predetermined. Do any of you think a computer program has a free will?

Plus, why would he create a universe with perfectly predictable creatures (wich is in contradiction with the bible, btw)?

It would make more sense that he created creatures he can't predict, that he voluntarily blinds himself of thoughts that people haven't thought of yet. Being omnipotent, he could do that right?

yes he could blind himself.....

so God has two choices....

1.) Make a perfect world where everyone is a perfect predictable computer program with no free will.

2.) Make us imperfect beings with free will.... and blind himself to our thoughts... to ensure our free will.... and then let us move towards perfection on our own to sort of let us "earn it".

[Cyborg]

Yet we will never achieve that goal...

He'd know that.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Yet we will never achieve that goal...

He'd know that.

According to Revelations we should...  only time will tell huh... the battle of Armageddon shouldnt be too hard to miss.

[TMA_1]

I see what you are saying earthnuker, but I think it is just hard without a full force of faith behind you to accept things in the bible.

It said that God created all things for his glory. Now glory isnt what you think it means. It isnt like God is some ego maniac that needs to glorify himself. It means that God created all things as a reflection of himself, in a sense he created because he could. It is only logical to use the power that you have. God wanted to create beings like him in the sense that they can comprehend their surroundings.

and yes, I am captain obvious, but if you cannot think in simple standards, then you have no right and reason to think on a more deeper scale, and sometimes the deepest thing you can do is to think in the simplest ways. It is like that with some kinds of philosophy, you answer a question or a dilemma according to how that dilemma or question has been asked.

not sure that statement you say was a compliment or a form of mockery.lol it doesnt matter though I think it was the right response. :)