Theological Thoughts

[TMA_1]

This kinda is for those who believe in the words of the bible. Those of you who dont believe though can totally post, it just may not be interesting to some, though I could be wrong! :)

I have heard this once by my dad, and it makes a lot of sense. I myself am a dispensationalist. Basically that means I believe that the history of this earth dealing with spiritual things are ordered into epochs or ages. For example, the antedeluvian age was that age before the flood. Then you had the age of the patriachs, and then when abraham was given a covenant from God, the jewish age came into being, and on penticost, when the apostles and believers recieved the holy spirit a short time after the raising up of christ, then came the age of the church.

Well basically I have been reading passages, such as Romans 11. I have learned something of it from a few theologens, as well as my dad who is one of the greatest ones in my mind. A personal preference, but also one that is objective, you would have to know him I guess.

There have been many who say that the jewish people during the church age will either have to accept christ, or go to hell. That they are "rejected". This bothered me for awhile, and not really because it seems anti-semitic, but because it does not seem fair that God "blinded" the jewish people as a whole, not individually mind you. I thought this extremely unfair. Unfair until I read chapters and verses like in Romans 11.

I have found with a majority of info coming from my dad and others, that the jewish people as a whole werent blinded because they were at fault, but simply because it is a different spiritual dispensation. Just like when the tribulation happens, the church age will be no more and we have no say in things afterwords.

Because of this I have studied and have seen that the jewish people who stay faithful to God dont go to hell, but simply are taken to heaven because God has made covenants with them. They are "blinded", because this is not apart of their age, just like our age is not apart of the jewish age. It says in Romans 11 that the root of the figurative olive treeis the Lord, and that the jewish people are symbolized by the branches. It says that the church should not think of themselves as special at all, but that we are equal partakers of the roots. We are the wild olive branch (the church) that has been mended onto the other branches. Because of this and many other references I believe now that the jewish people are all going to enter heaven, not because of anything you would think, but because God has made certain covenants with the jewish people that make it impossible for the jewish people who are strong in faith to go to hell. It isnt fair.

Because of this I have seen that jews and christians are both going to be joined in heaven.

Now this may seem like nothing to some, but you have to understand that throughout much of church history christians have slandored against jewish believers and even killed them for their "lack of faith". From these studies though I can only surmise that the Lord hears their prayers and words as well, and that they will be saved as well as the christians.

I know this might sound weird to some, but I want to get some input from other believers here. Does this make any sense to any of you?

The jewish believers and the christian believers in my docternal ideas are of different dispensations, but are both equal in their importance and need. and because christians and the jewish people both have our own seperate covenants that also deal with salvation, this means in my personal opinion on the scriptures that the jewish people are not somehow put out during teh church age, but are also equal follwers of the lord, and that they dont need to come to christ because they follow a different dispensational doctern, and they too will enter heaven by their own covenants.

This should be a really wonderful message to those out there. you see, we are equal in a spiritual sense, yet we have a diversity in docterns and covenants. This should be a great symbol that we are spiritual family, and that we both should work harder together as spiritual partakers of God and of the heavens.

This should act as a bond between us, and christ should show this totally! afterall, in revelations Israel is depicted as the mother of jesus the human. We are spiritually related in ways hard to comprehend! It also says something in revelations that affirms the ideas that I, my father and others have.

It says that the jewish people are the wife of jehova (the father), while christians are the bride of christ.

So we are intimately and inseperably united to God, yet we have our own paths that need to be fulfilled. I just dont see why we cant work together in this earth to the glory of God, and to act as conduits to fulfill the covenants that we have together.

All we have now is strife, where christians rail evil accusations against the jewish people, while some jewish people say evil against christians (understandable for what christians have done to the jewish race). We need to unite, and now more than ever.

[Caid Ivik]

It was a metaphore. It showed that Jews followed some kind of ruling God as their king, a champion, which then, when he was proven even by pagan philosophy, could finally become a true "God", believed and worshipped. Christ could not come in better time he had.

[Anathema]

I don't know, it seems to fit in earily with some of the bible scriptures. Reading "noone comes to the father but through me" and such it seems like Jesus claims the monopoly on salvation. Plus, the coming of the messiah was prophecised in the old testament, but the jews don't recognise Jesus as such.

[GUNWOUNDS]

I don't know, it seems to fit in earily with some of the bible scriptures. Reading "noone comes to the father but through me" and such it seems like Jesus claims the monopoly on salvation. Plus, the coming of the messiah was prophecised in the old testament, but the jews don't recognise Jesus as such.

I have to agree with the nederlander on this issue....

Saying the Jews can get into heaven without Jesus is cheapening and contradicting his statement of "no one comes to the father but through me"

In addition, People who died in the old testament (Noah, Moses, etc) before Christ died were not permitted to go to heaven.. they had to go to

[TMA_1]

whoa whoa, the jews in abrahams bossom did NOT have to accept christ. That is what the attonment sacrifice was for. Read the levitical sacrifices, there are some for the confession and remission of sins, some for laws of spiritual and physical cleanliness and some for the sake of pure salvation.

"Abraham believed and it was acredited as righteousness". He sacrificed to the lord, as a sign of his belief in a future messiah.

You have to understand though, in my doctern I believe in different spiritual ages. You can NOT mix the jewish age with the church age, or the antediluvian age with the jewish age. They have their own purposes. Also the Lord promised the Jews something that he promised no other nation. They are truly special in their selection, and well are frankly more important spiritually than any other race. That isnt racism, just what the word of the lord says to me.

The reason for the blindness was because the jewish age could not be mixed with the church age. Now individually, jews could convert to christ, but as a whole it was impossible because of the rejection of christ by the people of israel which was inevitable. Not because of any wrong doing, but because of the spiritual difference of ages. It would be like something from our dimension mixing with another dimension. They cannot fit and cannot mix. So the jewish people go to heaven as well in my eyes, and in the eyes of others because of the promises God made to them.

Now I am not totally sure on this, because this is one freaking huge step to make, and I do not want to cheapen the cross of christ which is by faith alone and not at all by works. What I am saying though is the jewish age works completely different than the church age.

and by the way gunwounds, earthnuker is not french... lol

[GUNWOUNDS]

and by the way gunwounds, earthnuker is not french... lol

haha ya i took too quick of a look before i posted... hehe correction made  :D

[GUNWOUNDS]

whoa whoa, the jews in abrahams bossom did NOT have to accept christ. That is what the attonment sacrifice was for. Read the levitical sacrifices, there are some for the confession and remission of sins, some for laws of spiritual and physical cleanliness and some for the sake of pure salvation.

"Abraham believed and it was acredited as righteousness". He sacrificed to the lord, as a sign of his belief in a future messiah.

Ok .. well doesnt the bible say that jesus went and preached/conversed to the Jews in the bosom of abraham?

And they DID accept Christ ... but it was different... it was more "matter of fact" than it was "faith" because Jesus was standing right there preaching/conversing (whatever you want to call it) to them.

So they did have faith in a coming messiah and when Jesus came before them they accepted him for who he was.

[GUNWOUNDS]

That is what the attonment sacrifice was for. Read the levitical sacrifices, there are some for the confession and remission of sins, some for laws of spiritual and physical cleanliness and some for the sake of pure salvation.

Yes these practices did exist.... but they were IMPERFECT.... Jesus was the PERFECT sacrifice...

The IMPERFECT sacrifices could not get them into heaven... they could only

[TMA_1]

I see what you mean man, and dont get me wrong I am not saying that my ideas or other peoples ideas are totally correct. This idea just is starting to make some sense to me.

As for abrahams bossom, again they are of another dispensation. the believers of the jewish age, whether they be jewish or believers (because a lot of people dont know that there were many people who went to abrahams bossom who were not circumsized and did not follow the laws, but believed in the lord of israel and the coming messiah. Places like in ethiopia there were some tribes that did follow the laws, but others who didnt but were believers). They were taken to abrahams bossom because the lord promised them the earth, not heaven. When the earth is reformed, it will be a paradise like the New Jerusalem. The old testament belivers though recieve different promises, though equal they are just different ones.

So when it mentions they go to abrahams bossom this is paradise for those believers before the advent of the church. When christ ascended it is said that he took "captivity captive", referring to the old testament believers and the fact that abrahams bossom is taken up to heaven.

This is what I have learned. It is that they are to stay in the paradise of abrahams bossom until the earth is reformed after the millenial reign of christ when they will be given all the earth, as well as the remaining believers during the millenial reign. Us christians will recieve the new jerusalem and other things that christ controls. which will hover above the earth, a large and beautiful place around 1500 miles cubed, a perfect square. God promised the jewish nation the entire earth eventually, and they will reign over it. This starts during the millenial reign, but will be in full effect afterwords when the universe is finally fully clensed of all sin. But even before that during the millenial reign David will be ruling over the promised portion of earth that was told to abraham. This will roughly cover a land mass from near the black sea, to the red sea, and over east to persia, and up northeast to a place as far east as near the hindu cush. After the millenium though the entire earth will be given to the old testament believers.

This is really complicated stuff.lol I hope I am just explaining it okay, if not tell me though, and I would love to hear any disagreements, as I really want to get this stuff right. I try my hardest not to have biases when it comes to this stuff as this is the word of God, not to be fooled with.

(and by the way thanks for taking out those quote man, really sweet of you.:) thanks man.)

lol sorry gunwoudns had to edit my post as you posted something new in your editing. It never mentions limbo. The old testament belivers go to abrahams bossom though which IS paradise. From the studies of the word, and jewish theology, all people went to hades. In hades there were two places. One was torments, for the unbelievers, and the other is abrahams bossom. Now abrahams bossom was taken away to heaven after the death and ressurrection of christ, and the old testament believers await there for their eventual given command of earth by God, as promised to them in their covenants.

Torments is still used until the lake of fire, when after the millenium Satan is cast into the lake of fire with the fallen ones. The rest of the unbelievers are thrown in as well. (Hope this doesnt offend any of you, it is just what I believe. hope you guys undrestand.)

[GUNWOUNDS]

yes there was a chasm between the bosom of abraham and Hell... and they could see each other but the reason i call it Limbo is because it is not Heaven and its not Hell

i know it was "paradise for them"  but to me the true paradise is heaven.

Also i was told that it wasnt paradise.. it was more a "place of contentment"

[GUNWOUNDS]

God promised the jewish nation the entire earth eventually, and they will reign over it.

Ok one last thing i got to mention ... You seem pretty intent on keep the nations and races as permanent unique entities... but the Bible said that when Christ Died for our sins that "We are NO longer Jew nor Gentile, Man nor Woman .. we are all ONE in CHRIST"

I think this pretty much says it all... you seem like you want to say that Jews and christians should live in harmony together but the thing is this... we should ALL be Christians.

Think about this... all the jews and non-jews that went to the bosom of abraham.... they did not reject christ.. they believed a future messiah was coming... and they finally got to see him... there was no rejection there.

The Jewish religion of today rejects Christ... How can you reject a part of the Trinity?

And saying that the Jews are blinded is false... i mean Jesus had followers on Earth did he not?

[GUNWOUNDS]

[OT] TMA do you think Judas went to Hell?

I saw this movie about Judas that showed him in a different light..... he wasnt portrayed as evil or a traitor .. he was portrayed as trying to put jesus in a situation where he would be forced to reveal his power.. but when he didnt ...Judas felt horrible.... and most movies end with Judas hanging himself and leading you to believe he stayed out there to rot.

But in this movie it showed the disciples cutting him down taking the noose off his neck, praying for him... and carefully carrying his body back.

[ordos45]

Had Judas Iscariot not betrayed Jesus...had he kissed someone else instead, all history could be changed.  Thus, to reiterate Gunwounds question, is Judas in Hell?  After all, the Crucifixtion and sacrifice was the Will of God.

[Wolf]

Did Judas beg forgiveness? That is the key issue. I know that Judas hung himself, but I am unsure of whether or not he wanted forgiveness from God, or that he simply wanted to punish himself for what he had done. Remember the exchange between Judas and Zadok after the crucifixion.

[Tio_Holtzmann]

Who is Zadok?

I personally believe that judas could most definitely have received forgiveness.  I think the reason why Jesus said that it would be better if he had not been born was that he knew Judas wouldn't ask for forgiveness.

and personally i can't understand why paul went on and on about the law being imperfect (romans) and jesus being the one perfect sacrifice (hebrews) as a matter of JEWISH importance if it was all pointless.  it makes quite clearly the point that a lot of jews are going to stay stuck in the past and reject jesus.  it is only those who turn to jesus who will be saved, he is the pinnacle of everything the Old Testament set out.

[Wolf]

Zadok was a zealot who wanted Jesus dead.

[TMA_1]

to me personally, the movie Judas was full of crap.lol He betrayed Jesus, but not as the evil arch villian that people for some reason believe. He did it from what I can read because he was one, disappointed, and two, satan possessed. lol that simple. Now you can come up with your own conclusions that arent of the bible, but frankly that would just be assumption with no faith, and the bible takes a bit of faith.

Judas is in hell from what I can surmise, but I could be wrong. The reason why is when it says he "repented" and felt guilty for killing jesus, it uses a word that means he felt sorry for himself, not for jesus. He did the old "oh I am a total creep, nobody likes me and I am horrible". He didnt repent for his sins, just felt sorry for himself. I dont really think of that as any sort of repentance.

and when it says we are no longer jew or gentile, man or woman, but one in christ (a think you let out a little of what the verse said), it meant that when we become christians we are a new creature, because we will recieve new bodies. Those who havent believed are still jews and gentiles. They are so because they are not apart of the body of christ.

That is the whole point though! The jewish people are Jehovah's. They are apart of a different contract, and different covenants. This seperates them in some ways from other covenants.

Now jewish people have an option to individually come to christ, but from what I can tell, it is not required of them as they have different promises given to them as a people.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Now jewish people have an option to individually come to christ, but from what I can tell, it is not required of them as they have different promises given to them as a people.

i keep trying to work that thru my thoughts but its not computing for me at the moment.

[TMA_1]

I know what you mean gunwounds, I am not fully sure myself, as stupid as that sounds. I mean there are problems with the idea, but for some reason I just believe it.